Veganism

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Jul 5, 2009
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Re:

King Boonen said:
I have a question for the vegans here.

As I am lead to understand it, vegans are not just against the eating of meat, they are against the suffering of animals kept in "slavery" by humans.

How then do you cope with the fact that the vast majority of what you eat will have been grown with fertiliser produced from by-products of these animals? Especially if you buy anything labelled "organic".

I have a vegan friend I could ask but he is particularly vociferous on the topic so I only intend to ask him if I know it won't piss him off.

All commercial fertilizers are Nitrogen and Phosphorous based chemicals that aren't derived from waste by-products. They're made from bulk chemicals. Example: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/nutrient-management/phosphorus/understanding-phosphorus-fertilizers/

And the reasons for veganism span a wide range. Everything from religion (Jainism and the concept of ahimsa in Hinduism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion) to philosophical (ethical treatment of animals, environmental concerns) to economic needs to simply a matter of dietary needs (lactose intolerant vegetarian) or taste.

John Swanson
 
King: Depending on where you live (and I live in
those places deliberately) it's easy enough to reorganize one's life, belong to small scale cooperatives and minimize the industrial and abstracted scale of even fruit/vegetable production you imply. Some eliminate it completely, but that's not always practical or socially politic and desirable as Merckx suggests upthread.
 
Personally I understand people who say that they don't eat meat because they find it disgusting to eat something that once lived. However its natural for humans to eat animals as it is for animals like lions or tigers, so I don't feel bad for eating meat.
 
Gigs_98 said:
Personally I understand people who say that they don't eat meat because they find it disgusting to eat something that once lived. However its natural for humans to eat animals as it is for animals like lions or tigers, so I don't feel bad for eating meat.

Lions and tigers are obligate carnivores, humans aren't. They eat other animals to survive, humans, having no dietary need for flesh, can only justify eating meat with taste, tradition and convenience, which, of course, are not good enough reasons in the moral spectrum.

Furthermore, something being natural doesn't necessarily mean it's good or acceptable. Besides eating other animals, lions, tigers and other carnivores also commit infanticide, rape and do countless other things we would never find acceptable amongst ourselves. So why cherry-pick one thing to mimic in wild animals and ignore the rest.

Such should be of no significance when trying to evaluate the ethics of eating meat. Unless you live in remote, inhospitable regions of the globe, which I trust you don't, the arguments for consuming animal products are rendered futile and egotistical - i.e causing unnecessary harm and taking innocent sentient lives. Lions and tigers are predators, whilst we breed cows and pigs, and chickens and what not in farms, which by itself takes us out of the natural prism. Tigers and lions and other non-human animals have no concept of ethics and morality. However, like us, we're factually told, without the slightest doubt among ethologists and biologists, supported by the most elementary good and common sense, that most have the capacity to suffer, convey emotions and are provided with self-awareness, leading us to take into account their interest in living.

A case for humans not being natural omnivores can also be made. As T. Colin Campbell and many other have argued, a plant-based diet has been shown to be much more efficient than a meat-based diet in providing us with most essential nutrients, since we share greater digestive traits with herbivores than with carnivores or other omnivores, as well as being much more healthier for us in both short and long term. One would think our natural diet wouldn't get us killed.

Even so, that's all irrelevant in our current world. The case for veganism now is broader and not just a fight for animal rights. The meat industry is the leading cause of global warming, as well as representing a major share in food and water waste, as better explained here:

http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/environment/food-security
Food (and land) security is becoming a major issue. The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) estimates that one in nine people are chronically undernourished. With the world’s population expected to increase from 7 billion to reach 9-11 billion by 2050, one of the most urgent questions we now face is how we, as a species, will feed ourselves in the 21st century.

Even if we tackled the economic forces that ultimately cause the unfair allocation of resources, land availability would still be one of the main constraints on mass food production. The Earth has only a limited area of viable agricultural land; how this land is used is central to our ability to feed the world. This is particularly important given how desertification and other ecological issues brought on by climate change continue to reduce the quantity and the quality of the world's arable land.

Meat-heavy, Westernised diets are a waste of resources we desperately need to conserve. This is because livestock consume much more protein, water and calories than they produce. Most of the protein from vegetable feed is used for the animal’s bodily functions and not converted to meat, eggs or milk.

Studies indicate that a varied vegan diet requires about a third of the land needed for conventional Western diets; 3.5 billion humans could live off the food currently fed to livestock.

Quite simply, we do not have enough land to feed a growing population an animal-based diet. While 800 million people do not have enough food, we continue to waste valuable agricultural land by obtaining only a small fraction of its potential calorific value.

The world’s population is increasing and viable agricultural lands are diminishing. If we are to avoid future global food scarcity we must find sustainable ways of utilising our natural resource base. Industrial livestock production is not just unsustainable; it's unjustifiable

Take a look at the bottom of the page for 'unbiased' and offical sources: http://www.bitesizevegan.com/environmental-societal-impact/everything-wrong-with-environmentalism-in-11-minutes-or-less/

Cheers.
 
@BigMac
First of all, wouldnt "McVeggie" be a better name for you ;)

But lets return to the topic. Actually I agree with some of your points and yes I agree that eating meat harms the environment and is a reason for global warming. However that doesnt change my opinion about eating meat. Personally I try to only eat bio-meat which comes from Austria, so it doesnt have to be transported over very long distances and the animals have a happy life before they die. For example its nonsense to be vegetarian because you don't want to hurt animals and than you eat eggs from chicken that live in laying batteries for years (I know you are Vegan but that whole comment doesnt only count for you)
Moreover imo the argument that a plant based diet works better than a meat based diet doesnt really work. I doubt that there are people who only eat meat. And only because a plant based diet would work better that doesnt mean its really good. As far as I know some people can live completely vegan but some just can't, because f.e. they have a lack of vitamin B12. You might disagree but imo that already shows that humans aren't meant to live completely without meat or any other animal products. You know, whoever wants to live vegan shall do so, I absolutely don't have a problem with it and I even have to show respect for people who stop eating animal products because of ethical concerns. But if an animal has a happy life until it gets slaughtered I am okay with eating it.
Ps: holy crap that last sentence sounds brutal. Its sounds far more kindly in german :D
 
Gigs, it's not the transportation of animals that makes animal agriculture so pollutant, rather the animals themselves. That doesn't change if it's industrial production or 'organic' farms. Bio-meat is an incredibly misleading label - there's no such thing. As a matter of fact, 'organic' meats only exist to make people who disagree with industrial farming happy with themselves and still enjoy the taste of flesh, but at the end of the day the whole concept is still an oxymoron. A marketing stunt. A fraud. You can't possibly expect people who make profit with the death of animals to care about their existence, or if they're well treated or not. They're not.

Bio-meats from so called organic farms are little to no better than industrial farms: animals never reach half of their life expectancy. You see, a cow can live up to 25 years, organic farms are as much as dismissive of this as it would simply be too costly and unprofitable to have them reach anywhere near that age. Have you actually ever seen an image of said organic/bio farms? Bio and organic only means the animals are fed organic (id est, crops supposedly without genetic modifications, all for our sake, not the animal's), which means most of the times they still spend their lives caged and in filthy sheds, exposed to abuse by psychotic farmers and force fed. People have to understand it's all about the money, and a farmer will do everything in it's reach to proft the most out of his situation: farmers don't give a rat's ass about animals, otherwise they wouldn't be making money out of their deaths and bodily secretions in the first place. And in the end, there can never be happiness in something that ends in death. Why apply this dishonest standards just so we can feel good about ourselves; make a miserable situation a little less miserable, and it's still miserable. Why not ditch meat for good. Why not opt for the most compassionate (and least expensive) option.

The moral question can never be if they (animals) lived a happy life or were killed humanely (how much more contraditory can it get?) - that's not even half of the issue. That's soothing one's conscience while not necessarily addressing the violence and injustice being experienced by others. In the end, they're killed. Against their will, for the sake of our palate and nothing else. A sentient life for seconds of a lesser pleasure. What's it worth a happy life that's predestined to end with a pneumatic bolt through the neck, a slit throat, a grinded body while very much alive, and the final moments of terror lived by the animal. That's where bio-meat ends and comes from, too.

The fundamental point is, animals are not ours to eat, wear or exploit in any kind. They're provided with their own interest in living, self-awareness, emotions; they have the capacity to empathize, create bonds, share love with one another, care for their family. These are all faculties the human arrogance tried and still tries to trivialize. We ought to put ourselves in the victim's perspective to understand and come up with an answer. This is not a moral issue with regards to us, we can't discuss the worth of a non-human sentient life by placing ourselves in the middle of the dillema. It's not my intention to sound agressive, I'm not. I wasn't born vegan nor vegetarian, but am glad someone was brave enough to drop some truth bombs near me. I'm glad I felt attacked once, which is not what I'm doing now, mind. I hope you (plural) read this in a friendly tone.

If slaughterhouses indeed had glasswalls, everyone would be a vegetarian, as once told by that famous singer. I often share the documentary Earthlings, and did so in the beginning of this thread, but I'm almost one hundred per cent positive the people it is aimed at never do watch it. I believe that anyone who's adult enough to face reality, not an uncaring, senseless brat, who manages to view a single bit of that film, will stop eating meat. It's quite possibly the most devastating film you'll ever see, but as the other Singer said, there is an obligation of those who eat animals to at least know where that corpse originated from, how it ended up in their plate, and the horrors behind it. I've had the sad privilege of witnessing first hand some of the despicable things humans can do to animals, which are well portrayed in that video: a calf being taken away to slaughter from her artificially impregnated mom, while the latter screams the screams of a mother. And as much as we in our true priviledged lifes in this planet want to paint the opposite, that was no different than human desperation.

http://www.humanemyth.org/
http://www.earthlings.com/

The b12 issue has become more of an argumentative buzzword than an argument itself. B12 originates from bacteria in the soil, it's not something cows produce themselves. Cows and others get this from plants they eat. Basically meat-eaters get b12 third-hand whereas vegans and vegetarians have a much more direct intake. What happens is that since cows and other herbivores eat larger quantities of plants, that reduces the loss of said vitamin to the person who eats the animal's flesh (i.e, not all is synthesized and so remains). However, due to the degradation of the soils and pastures, due to intensive animal farming, most if not all meat is already fortified with b12, making it no more natural than, say, a vegan taking supplements. I for one only take supplements once in a while, same as most of my vegan friends, as we can fulfill our daily intake values without it. As I said, we share larger digestive and physiological traits with herbivores than we do with carnivores and other omnivores, I leave that for another post.

''We all live in the same atmosphere. Why then, do we separate and distinguish. Always striving against each other, for power, and supremacy. The harmony of being, is when we feel the suffering of EVERY creature, in our own hearts. ARE WE NOT ALL EARTHLINGS? EACH AND EVERYONE OF US. Not the same, but EQUAL.''
 
BigMac said:
Gigs, it's not the transportation of animals that makes animal agriculture so pollutant, rather the animals themselves. ...
''We all live in the same atmosphere. Why then, do we separate and distinguish. Always striving against each other, for power, and supremacy. The harmony of being, is when we feel the suffering of EVERY creature, in our own hearts. ARE WE NOT ALL EARTHLINGS? EACH AND EVERYONE OF US. Not the same, but EQUAL.''
Excellent post.
Been waiting til someone mentioned Earthlings.com in this thread. I know it's in 12 parts on youtube, so perhaps link just the 'Food' one here? (I can't access it while here at work)
Likewise T Colin Campbell - no one's mentioned the link between animal proteins and cancer/heart disease. And considering the massive protein consumption push in recent years, is it any wonder that the cancer rate has now become 1 in 2 people? I recall it being far lower than that only a few years ago...

There's not really much to add to what you've been saying, and man, after seeing what's been thrown at you, you have to have been banging your head on your keyboard. There's been some interesting logic in this thread - been interesting to see some of it and how it comes about.

The one thing that astounds me about the B12 carry-on is that, and I could be wrong here, but aren't mushrooms the best source of B12?
I can't say I've ever heard that meat is the best source of B12, or even one to be considered. Yet there are far more ads on tv for "getting some pork on your fork" or for lamb suddenly becoming a "traditional" meat for having on our country's national day...
I've considered what would happen if the meat industry were to cease, and it's not just the jobs lost from meat growing, but all the associated industries involved - processing, transport, refrigeration, marketing/advertising, retailers, farming/equipment manufacturers/suppliers, etc, etc... tis BIG business and billions of dollars.
This is why the likes of what T Colin and his pal Eppstein (I think - the heart disease doctor), get almost no promotion despite what they've shown in successful reductions in cancer and heart disease...

Likewise, I think the question needs to be asked as to why 'organic' anything isn't cheaper than non-organic, when you consider the extra costs of fertilizers, pesticides, modifications, etc... to produce them - or the lack of those for 'organic' produce.
Maybe more pertinent to ask "why do you charge so much more for this?" (other than the obvious marketing blurb/reasoning)

But I digress...

"farmers don't give a rat's ass about animals, otherwise they wouldn't be making money out of their deaths and bodily secretions in the first place" - yep, otherwise their herds/flocks would be called "Pets"...
 
I have to say that I agree with you on a lot of these points. I'm not vegetarian, let alone vegan but I do think that we have a responsibility to know what is involved in the sourcing and production of our food and to influence it for the better. I also feel that there is no need for the excessive breeding and consumption of animal products seen in Western nations in particular ( I only eat meat 2-4 times a week myself).

Growing up, my grandparents had a very large sheep and cattle farm in the Hunter Valley region in Australia. I have seen first hand what is involved in the raising, slaughtering and butchery of animals for food. There are so many varying conditions it is amazing. My grandparents had herds in pastures that could have held 3-4 times as much livestock, that wasn't entirely cleared, with trees remaining in the fields and streams and creeks as natural sources of water over dams and irrigation. The result? Higher and better yields, better quality product, less effects during low rainfall and far less overall environmental impact. Most other farm owners in the region used to laugh at them for how they ran their farm, yet their farm was always one of the most profitable.

As for slaughterhouses, I've seen the best (small, independent, often halal certified) and the worst (large scale production for supermarkets etc.). There are hugely differing levels of hygiene, safety and distress to the animals when they are slaughtered. While the animal still has to be killed, in a more ethical(?) abattoir they do not see the previous animal get stunned and even killed as they will be slaughtered as quickly as possible, alone, with as little distress as possible. It's not perfect, but if animals have to die for food, this is how I prefer it to happen.

It's been shown that livestock are one of the biggest producers of greenhouse gases in the world. I don't know what some parts of Europe, Asia, Africa and South America are like but Australia, North America, and parts of Western Europe (especially UK) consumes a LOT of meat. Far more than it needs to. I've known a great many people who can/do happily eat meat at all three meals everyday and even more who look at vegans and vegetarians as strange and need to be fixed. Eating steak is considered manly by a lot of people here in Aus, and rougher types (read bogans) would eat it every day if it's an option. The amount of livestock required for people with this kind of demand is only going to create more and more stress on our ecosystem and is something that needs to change, but, unfortunately, getting people to ease up on their perceived luxuries is tilting at windmills :(
 
Gigs_98 said:
@BigMac
First of all, wouldnt "McVeggie" be a better name for you ;)

But lets return to the topic. Actually I agree with some of your points and yes I agree that eating meat harms the environment and is a reason for global warming. However that doesnt change my opinion about eating meat. Personally I try to only eat bio-meat which comes from Austria, so it doesnt have to be transported over very long distances and the animals have a happy life before they die. For example its nonsense to be vegetarian because you don't want to hurt animals and than you eat eggs from chicken that live in laying batteries for years (I know you are Vegan but that whole comment doesnt only count for you)
Moreover imo the argument that a plant based diet works better than a meat based diet doesnt really work. I doubt that there are people who only eat meat. And only because a plant based diet would work better that doesnt mean its really good. As far as I know some people can live completely vegan but some just can't, because f.e. they have a lack of vitamin B12. You might disagree but imo that already shows that humans aren't meant to live completely without meat or any other animal products. You know, whoever wants to live vegan shall do so, I absolutely don't have a problem with it and I even have to show respect for people who stop eating animal products because of ethical concerns. But if an animal has a happy life until it gets slaughtered I am okay with eating it.
Ps: holy crap that last sentence sounds brutal. Its sounds far more kindly in german :D
Even this is something that doesn't have to be true, at least here in Australia. There has been a constantly increasing awareness of where and how dairy and poultry is raised and sourced. Free range eggs are more common than cage and barn eggs now, where the chickens are raised in paddocks, with a maximum number per area, enforced by the RSPCA if the farm wishes to retain free range certification. The eggs are collected from wherever they're laid and the birds lead a happier life.

There is also RSPCA certified pork, where the pigs are no longer suspended and force fed. Again, they are raised in paddocks and allowed to actually run around and be pigs. If you shop around there is also milk that is not sourced from dairy farms where the cows are held in barns constantly and permanently restrained in pens.

These are all slightly more expensive than conventional products, but they are far superior and generally better for you and the animal - especially in the case of egg laying chickens.
 
BigMac said:
Gigs, it's not the transportation of animals that makes animal agriculture so pollutant, rather the animals themselves...''

very good post sir, well written.

i have tried to reduced my animal protein consumption down to almost zero over the last 5 years

i don't call myself a vegan per se or anything actually as it's such a polarising topic these days and very hard to eliminate all animal protein(s) completely from your diet

especially in small town nz

i just wish people would listen to / read the science
theres an absolute ton of great stuff out there to consider

if you need to / want to eat animals
please consider the following: -

1) your own health
2) the environment
3) what happens to an animal so that you can eat it

an excellent doco that opened my eyes to the environmental impact of industrial factory farming was this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0xO8RiRffM

meat - the truth very good!

meat is murder
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
King Boonen said:
I have a question for the vegans here.

As I am lead to understand it, vegans are not just against the eating of meat, they are against the suffering of animals kept in "slavery" by humans.

How then do you cope with the fact that the vast majority of what you eat will have been grown with fertiliser produced from by-products of these animals? Especially if you buy anything labelled "organic".

I have a vegan friend I could ask but he is particularly vociferous on the topic so I only intend to ask him if I know it won't piss him off.

All commercial fertilizers are Nitrogen and Phosphorous based chemicals that aren't derived from waste by-products. They're made from bulk chemicals. Example: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/nutrient-management/phosphorus/understanding-phosphorus-fertilizers/

And the reasons for veganism span a wide range. Everything from religion (Jainism and the concept of ahimsa in Hinduism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion) to philosophical (ethical treatment of animals, environmental concerns) to economic needs to simply a matter of dietary needs (lactose intolerant vegetarian) or taste.

John Swanson

I'm fully aware how commercial fertilisers are made and I'm also fully aware that a huge number of farmers use manure as a fertiliser. I am very obviously asking about the second case.

Your link is to vegetarianism and religion. Vegetarian =! Vegan.
 
Re:

aphronesis said:
King: Depending on where you live (and I live in
those places deliberately) it's easy enough to reorganize one's life, belong to small scale cooperatives and minimize the industrial and abstracted scale of even fruit/vegetable production you imply. Some eliminate it completely, but that's not always practical or socially politic and desirable as Merckx suggests upthread.

Thanks for the answer. I'm sure it is easy enough for some, although I would hazard a guess that it would require growing the majority of your own food and only buying from suppliers who can guarantee their products have not come into contact with any animal products. I just wonder if it is something vegans think about.

My friend won't buy Continental tyres because the stearic acid they use comes from animals. He's very rigorous in his veganism and as far as I can see manure would be fully against his principals, so I'm just wondering how other vegans feel about it.
 
So BigMac posted this image:
centralnervoussystems-lg.jpg



I know it's not this simple but to extend on this, how do vegans on this forum feel about eating bivalves such as mussels and cockles?

They respond to stimuli and do not have a brain making conscious decision making impossible. They react very much like plants do when finding food and light sources although more complex.

I realise this has been discussed elsewhere, I'm more interested in how people I have some interaction with feel about it than endless arguments on the internet...
 
May I give you an opinion, BigMac? I tried to several times in private but you wouldn't hear me :( (except for your comments about mossels) .

Meat-eating can hardly be called a tradition since the majority of our ancestors - in my country - rarely ate meat until the 19th century, most of the time, because they could not afford it. More particularly the 19th century!

Yet when they did, it was a matter of survival. In my country there's winter and winter can be pretty severe, nothing grows and in order to survive winters, our ancestors needed fat content, thus meat. They were the first to be sorry about that, probably but it was the way it was. In India there's a long tradition of vegetarianism, but it's easy, their environment enabled them to. Our Christian religion also encouraged vegetarianism (unlike many think) but we had to face reality, I think (for more on that issue, I can only discuss that with you in private, for I dislike the ambience of this forum so much).

Nowadays it's possible to have a balanced vegetarian/vegan diet but this has also been made possible by all our imports of fruits and vegetables, our fridge and all. When there's no more oil, no more energy (+ all the other facilities) we may need to live again the way our ancestors did, may we not?
 
Echoes said:
Meat-eating can hardly be called a tradition since the majority of our ancestors - in my country - rarely ate meat until the 19th century, most of the time, because they could not afford it. More particularly the 19th century!

You're going to have to explain that a bit more. I assume you're talking about recent history because humans are omnivores. I assume you mean recent history?
 
@BigMac
I know that many farms around the world are described as bio although the animals still live in cages for their whole life. But believe me, not all farmers are like that. I always spend my holidays in the mountains and just believe me, there are more than enough animals which have huge areas to run around and where they could have a more or less normal life. I know they still have to be killed and I know thats nothing good but if eating meat wouldnt be natural we wouldnt do it. We are omnivores and eating other animals is in our nature. Btw, please imagine that I said that last sentence in a very sad voice because I am sad that I "have to" write something like that. But seeing a steak just makes me hungry, and its not like I could simply say to myself that I suddenly don't want to eat meat anymore. I am not proud to write something like this but its just how I feel about it. I'd prefer a world in which all humans are born vegan but it isnt the case (when I was a baby I always wanted to eat meat and I hated vegetables and that was before I realized that I eat animals).

Another question: why are you vegan and not only vegetarian? Do you think anything like milking or taking eggs which aren't even fertilized isnt okay too because the animals have to be held on farms or any other places took.
 
Archibald said:
Likewise T Colin Campbell - no one's mentioned the link between animal proteins and cancer/heart disease...
That's a good cue to respond.

For those of us who eat little animal products because of health reasons primarily, over humanitarian ones, Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn are two experts who worked with quite possibly the largest study in history on the benefits of a plant based diet. A film named Forks Over Knives was based on this, and explains it quite clearly. It also concentrated on diabetes reduction.

The biggest shocker seemed to be that the general assumption in society is that carbohydrates are bad, and protein is good - sort of the Atkins plan. This has permeated health food over the last decade plus, even after Akins died and his company went bankrupt. But the Forks Over Knives people point out quite convincingly that all carbohydrates are not the same, in fact a diet high in healthy carbohydrates (salad, fruit, whole grains, etc) is highly beneficial, while a diet high in animal protein is deadly, and that animal protein is actually one of the largest causes of diabetes. They also aptly point out that you can get much more protein in plants than people realize. If you ask a person on the street how much protein is in green leafy lettuce, or spinach, and they are likely to tell you it's zero. When in fact, it's about 30%. An orange actually has nearly 10% protein.

The Forks Over Knives "diet" (there is no official diet by that name) however isn't vegan. It just is very low in animal based foods, its also low in junk food, refined carbohydrates. Below is the website, and link to their YouTube page. The film itself is available in many places and well worth watching.

http://ForksOverKnives.com

https://www.youtube.com/user/ForksOverKnives

Since I'm old, this all reminds me of Jack Lalanne, who was about 95% vegetarian, though his diet did change a little back and forth over the years. The big key was that he ate zero junk, and no refined or packaged foods, and the only animal product he ate daily was egg whites. He at a lot of fruits, vegetables, and juices. In his words, if man makes it, don't eat it.

http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Archibald said:
Likewise T Colin Campbell - no one's mentioned the link between animal proteins and cancer/heart disease...
That's a good cue to respond.

For those of us who eat little animal products because of health reasons primarily, over humanitarian ones, Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn are two experts who worked with quite possibly the largest study in history on the benefits of a plant based diet. A film named Forks Over Knives was based on this, and explains it quite clearly. It also concentrated on diabetes reduction.

The biggest shocker seemed to be that the general assumption in society is that carbohydrates are bad, and protein is good - sort of the Atkins plan. This has permeated health food over the last decade plus, even after Akins died and his company went bankrupt. But the Forks Over Knives people point out quite convincingly that all carbohydrates are not the same, in fact a diet high in healthy carbohydrates (salad, fruit, whole grains, etc) is highly beneficial, while a diet high in animal protein is deadly, and that animal protein is actually one of the largest causes of diabetes. They also aptly point out that you can get much more protein in plants than people realize. If you ask a person on the street how much protein is in green leafy lettuce, or spinach, and they are likely to tell you it's zero. When in fact, it's about 30%. An orange actually has nearly 10% protein.

The Forks Over Knives "diet" (there is no official diet by that name) however isn't vegan. It just is very low in animal based foods, its also low in junk food, refined carbohydrates. Below is the website, and link to their YouTube page. The film itself is available in many places and well worth watching.

http://ForksOverKnives.com

https://www.youtube.com/user/ForksOverKnives

Since I'm old, this all reminds me of Jack Lalanne, who was about 95% vegetarian, though his diet did change a little back and forth over the years. The big key was that he ate zero junk, and no refined or packaged foods, and the only animal product he ate daily was egg whites. He at a lot of fruits, vegetables, and juices. In his words, if man makes it, don't eat it.

http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html
excellent post - I couldn't remember the 'Forks over Knives' movie/doco name past Forks, and was thinking Forks versus something...

Esseltyn's results on heart disease is quite impressive - the images of arteries repairing themselves is pretty amazing, as is the survival rate of his patients when they stick his prescribed diet...

I still find Earthlings.com hard to beat in terms of the exposure of the meat industry. That cow being killed as 'kosher' was unbelievable in the how/what was done. To think that any product coming from that industry has any decent quality to it is just laughable and seriously makes you question the quality of what's on the supermarket shelves... We shy away from a piece of fruit with a bruise or two on it, but compared to the treatment of the meat before we get it, is nothing
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
aphronesis said:
King: Depending on where you live (and I live in
those places deliberately) it's easy enough to reorganize one's life, belong to small scale cooperatives and minimize the industrial and abstracted scale of even fruit/vegetable production you imply. Some eliminate it completely, but that's not always practical or socially politic and desirable as Merckx suggests upthread.

Thanks for the answer. I'm sure it is easy enough for some, although I would hazard a guess that it would require growing the majority of your own food and only buying from suppliers who can guarantee their products have not come into contact with any animal products. I just wonder if it is something vegans think about.

My friend won't buy Continental tyres because the stearic acid they use comes from animals. He's very rigorous in his veganism and as far as I can see manure would be fully against his principals, so I'm just wondering how other vegans feel about it.
Why would manure be against a vegan's principles? How do they expect to feed their crops? This is one product where the natural alternative is far less damaging than the man made alternative. IF the manure in question is taken from livestock in pastures/natural habitat why would this be an issue? It's not like the animal is being forced to poop! :confused:
 
Re: Re:

42x16ss said:
King Boonen said:
aphronesis said:
King: Depending on where you live (and I live in
those places deliberately) it's easy enough to reorganize one's life, belong to small scale cooperatives and minimize the industrial and abstracted scale of even fruit/vegetable production you imply. Some eliminate it completely, but that's not always practical or socially politic and desirable as Merckx suggests upthread.

Thanks for the answer. I'm sure it is easy enough for some, although I would hazard a guess that it would require growing the majority of your own food and only buying from suppliers who can guarantee their products have not come into contact with any animal products. I just wonder if it is something vegans think about.

My friend won't buy Continental tyres because the stearic acid they use comes from animals. He's very rigorous in his veganism and as far as I can see manure would be fully against his principals, so I'm just wondering how other vegans feel about it.
Why would manure be against a vegan's principles? How do they expect to feed their crops? This is one product where the natural alternative is far less damaging than the man made alternative. IF the manure in question is taken from livestock in pastures/natural habitat why would this be an issue? It's not like the animal is being forced to poop! :confused:

Veganism isn't just about not eating meat, cheese etc. or wearing leather. It's about respecting animals and allowing them to go about their lives without interference from humans. There are obvious cases where this can't happen but in general that is, I believe, how vegans think in general (it's certainly how my friends think).

Manure that is used in farming is not collected from free living animals, it is collected from animals that are part of the food industry, an industry that vegans are massively opposed to. No matter how free range these animals are, that is the feelings. Remember, vegans won't eat unfertilised eggs from free range birds.

As far as I can tell, manure in its current form of production is against vegan principles. I spoke to a guy at work who used to be a vegan and he agrees. He said that he gave up being a vegan as it was massively hypocritical unless you completely isolated yourself from society. almost everything we do affects animals in some negative way and he couldn't resolve that. He doesn't eat meat and eats very little dairy, so he is almost a dietary vegan, but he stopped the ethical part as he was being a hypocrite.

I brought up manure because it's not something I've heard discussed before and in reality you would probably have to avoid all shop bought vegetables to guarantee that you were not using it. I'm interested as it seems to go against what many vegans believe and I didn't know if there is a way they reconcile that.


Also, vegans and pets. What's all that about?
 

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