Veganism

[ray j willings]

I used to have this so called vegi friend. He used to eat chicken fish in-fact anything he fancied with the immortal words " it's ok to eat that, its organic, I'm still a vegi "
I made him some tortellini with beef in and he had no idea and asked for seconds, said it tasted nice and meaty

a plastic vegi of the first order.

 

[jmdirt]

Likewise T Colin Campbell - no one's mentioned the link between animal proteins and cancer/heart disease...

That's a good cue to respond.

For those of us who eat little animal products because of health reasons primarily, over humanitarian ones, Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn are two experts who worked with quite possibly the largest study in history on the benefits of a plant based diet. A film named Forks Over Knives was based on this, and explains it quite clearly. It also concentrated on diabetes reduction.

The biggest shocker seemed to be that the general assumption in society is that carbohydrates are bad, and protein is good - sort of the Atkins plan. This has permeated health food over the last decade plus, even after Akins died and his company went bankrupt. But the Forks Over Knives people point out quite convincingly that all carbohydrates are not the same, in fact a diet high in healthy carbohydrates (salad, fruit, whole grains, etc) is highly beneficial, while a diet high in animal protein is deadly, and that animal protein is actually one of the largest causes of diabetes. They also aptly point out that you can get much more protein in plants than people realize. If you ask a person on the street how much protein is in green leafy lettuce, or spinach, and they are likely to tell you it's zero. When in fact, it's about 30%. An orange actually has nearly 10% protein.

The Forks Over Knives "diet" (there is no official diet by that name) however isn't vegan. It just is very low in animal based foods, its also low in junk food, refined carbohydrates. Below is the website, and link to their YouTube page. The film itself is available in many places and well worth watching.

http://ForksOverKnives.com

https://www.youtube.com/user/ForksOverKnives

Since I'm old, this all reminds me of Jack Lalanne, who was about 95% vegetarian, though his diet did change a little back and forth over the years. The big key was that he ate zero junk, and no refined or packaged foods, and the only animal product he ate daily was egg whites. He at a lot of fruits, vegetables, and juices. In his words, if man makes it, don't eat it.

http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html

excellent post - I couldn't remember the 'Forks over Knives' movie/doco name past Forks, and was thinking Forks versus something...

Esseltyn's results on heart disease is quite impressive - the images of arteries repairing themselves is pretty amazing, as is the survival rate of his patients when they stick his prescribed diet...

I still find Earthlings.com hard to beat in terms of the exposure of the meat industry. That cow being killed as 'kosher' was unbelievable in the how/what was done. To think that any product coming from that industry has any decent quality to it is just laughable and seriously makes you question the quality of what's on the supermarket shelves... We shy away from a piece of fruit with a bruise or two on it, but compared to the treatment of the meat before we get it, is nothing

I toured a hot dog factory one time and it made me want to vomit!

 

[King Boonen]

The one thing that astounds me about the B12 carry-on is that, and I could be wrong here, but aren't mushrooms the best source of B12?
I can't say I've ever heard that meat is the best source of B12, or even one to be considered. Yet there are far more ads on tv for "getting some pork on your fork" or for lamb suddenly becoming a "traditional" meat for having on our country's national day...

No, mushrooms are not a good source of B12. You would need to eat 50g a day of dried shiitake mushrooms to reach your RDA. Animal derived products are really the only viable source of biologically active vitamin B12 other than supplements although I believe there has been some research done into edible algae.

And it's not just B12, many vegetarian diets can lack iron and vitamin D2/D3 as well, which again are mainly found in animal derived products.

Most people could no doubt do to drop a lot of the meat they eat from their diet. There is no need to eat meat everyday let alone every meal like many do. But we are omnivores and the BEST way for us to get everything we need is to eat meat as well as plants. The idea that a vegan/vegetarian diet is healthier is wrong, but equally the amount of meat the average person eats could no doubt be cut by more than half.

 

[Jspear]

Likewise T Colin Campbell - no one's mentioned the link between animal proteins and cancer/heart disease...

That's a good cue to respond.

For those of us who eat little animal products because of health reasons primarily, over humanitarian ones, Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn are two experts who worked with quite possibly the largest study in history on the benefits of a plant based diet. A film named Forks Over Knives was based on this, and explains it quite clearly. It also concentrated on diabetes reduction.

The biggest shocker seemed to be that the general assumption in society is that carbohydrates are bad, and protein is good - sort of the Atkins plan. This has permeated health food over the last decade plus, even after Akins died and his company went bankrupt. But the Forks Over Knives people point out quite convincingly that all carbohydrates are not the same, in fact a diet high in healthy carbohydrates (salad, fruit, whole grains, etc) is highly beneficial, while a diet high in animal protein is deadly, and that animal protein is actually one of the largest causes of diabetes. They also aptly point out that you can get much more protein in plants than people realize. If you ask a person on the street how much protein is in green leafy lettuce, or spinach, and they are likely to tell you it's zero. When in fact, it's about 30%. An orange actually has nearly 10% protein.

The Forks Over Knives "diet" (there is no official diet by that name) however isn't vegan. It just is very low in animal based foods, its also low in junk food, refined carbohydrates. Below is the website, and link to their YouTube page. The film itself is available in many places and well worth watching.

http://ForksOverKnives.com

https://www.youtube.com/user/ForksOverKnives

Since I'm old, this all reminds me of Jack Lalanne, who was about 95% vegetarian, though his diet did change a little back and forth over the years. The big key was that he ate zero junk, and no refined or packaged foods, and the only animal product he ate daily was egg whites. He at a lot of fruits, vegetables, and juices. In his words, if man makes it, don't eat it.

http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html

excellent post - I couldn't remember the 'Forks over Knives' movie/doco name past Forks, and was thinking Forks versus something...

Esseltyn's results on heart disease is quite impressive - the images of arteries repairing themselves is pretty amazing, as is the survival rate of his patients when they stick his prescribed diet...

I still find Earthlings.com hard to beat in terms of the exposure of the meat industry. That cow being killed as 'kosher' was unbelievable in the how/what was done. To think that any product coming from that industry has any decent quality to it is just laughable and seriously makes you question the quality of what's on the supermarket shelves... We shy away from a piece of fruit with a bruise or two on it, but compared to the treatment of the meat before we get it, is nothing

I toured a hot dog factory one time and it made me want to vomit!

Yep. My grandpa had a similar experience. Toured one then swore he'd never eat a dog again.

I prefer to be blissfully ignorant.

 

[Sciocco]

https://video-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/h...=cb888907535026017073d8f978f2db2d&oe=55EFBFC2

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Spirulina is a source of vegan b-12 as well. Here is a very good article on it, and why you may, or may not need more than you're getting.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

 

[Archibald]

I toured a hot dog factory one time and it made me want to vomit!

Mate of mine was a butcher - his insight into supermarket sausages was interesting.
Apparently it goes like this;
Put out on shelves - prime meat cuts...
No sale after a few days, returned, sliced, diced, then put out as 'diced' or 'stir fry' meats...
No sale after a few more days, returned and minced, then put out as 'mince'...
No sale after a few more days, returned and processed into sausages...

Most people could no doubt do to drop a lot of the meat they eat from their diet. There is no need to eat meat everyday let alone every meal like many do. But we are omnivores and the BEST way for us to get everything we need is to eat meat as well as plants. The idea that a vegan/vegetarian diet is healthier is wrong, but equally the amount of meat the average person eats could no doubt be cut by more than half.

IIRC, according to T. Colin Campbell, lower than 10% animal-based protein in your diet is the "target"

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Most people could no doubt do to drop a lot of the meat they eat from their diet. There is no need to eat meat everyday let alone every meal like many do. But we are omnivores and the BEST way for us to get everything we need is to eat meat as well as plants. The idea that a vegan/vegetarian diet is healthier is wrong, but equally the amount of meat the average person eats could no doubt be cut by more than half.

IIRC, according to T. Colin Campbell, lower than 10% animal-based protein in your diet is the "target"

Could well be, I know I certainly feel healthier if I'm not eating loads of meat/dairy etc. I also know I don't feel great if I give meat up for a while unless I'm very careful about what I eat. I've cut out a huge amount of meat from my diet and lost weight while still making gains in my road riding and general fitness but I've also cut a lot of simple carbs out too so that no doubt has an effect.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

I toured a hot dog factory one time and it made me want to vomit!

Mate of mine was a butcher - his insight into supermarket sausages was interesting.
Apparently it goes like this;
Put out on shelves - prime meat cuts...
No sale after a few days, returned, sliced, diced, then put out as 'diced' or 'stir fry' meats...
No sale after a few more days, returned and minced, then put out as 'mince'...
No sale after a few more days, returned and processed into sausages...

Most people could no doubt do to drop a lot of the meat they eat from their diet. There is no need to eat meat everyday let alone every meal like many do. But we are omnivores and the BEST way for us to get everything we need is to eat meat as well as plants. The idea that a vegan/vegetarian diet is healthier is wrong, but equally the amount of meat the average person eats could no doubt be cut by more than half.

IIRC, according to T. Colin Campbell, lower than 10% animal-based protein in your diet is the "target"

aged meat is a good thing.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

aged meat is a good thing.

My dad worked in a butchers as a kid. Every week a guy would come in, pick a joint and tell him to stick it in the back and get him the one that he had put back there last week. That's why you should always go to a butcher, you can get exactly what you want!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Re:

IIRC, according to T. Colin Campbell, lower than 10% animal-based protein in your diet is the "target"

I believe in Forks Over Knives he and the others were advocating that you could get by just fine with 10% total protein in your diet. They also point out that while you'll be eating some 65% of carbohydrates on their diet, none of it is processed. Basically you're eating a lot of vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds and whole grains in various meals. However, it should be pointed out that the Forks Over Knives people are not vegan. Not even vegetarian. They just eat very little meat and dairy.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

Most people could no doubt do to drop a lot of the meat they eat from their diet. There is no need to eat meat everyday let alone every meal like many do. But we are omnivores and the BEST way for us to get everything we need is to eat meat as well as plants. The idea that a vegan/vegetarian diet is healthier is wrong, but equally the amount of meat the average person eats could no doubt be cut by more than half.

IIRC, according to T. Colin Campbell, lower than 10% animal-based protein in your diet is the "target"

Could well be, I know I certainly feel healthier if I'm not eating loads of meat/dairy etc. I also know I don't feel great if I give meat up for a while unless I'm very careful about what I eat. I've cut out a huge amount of meat from my diet and lost weight while still making gains in my road riding and general fitness but I've also cut a lot of simple carbs out too so that no doubt has an effect.

I've had to work that with a bit of stealth as the missus keeps puting it in - I just use far less than previously. I've also reduced diary considerably, and much prefer oat or rice "milks".
No drop in road riding, and have even increased carb consumption [non-processed], while losing a few kilos as well.
all good!

IIRC, according to T. Colin Campbell, lower than 10% animal-based protein in your diet is the "target"

I believe in Forks Over Knives he and the others were advocating that you could get by just fine with 10% total protein in your diet. They also point out that while you'll be eating some 65% of carbohydrates on their diet, none of it is processed. Basically you're eating a lot of vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds and whole grains in various meals. However, it should be pointed out that the Forks Over Knives people are not vegan. Not even vegetarian. They just eat very little meat and dairy.

You could well be right on the amount of protein consumption being total not just meat based.
The other one I've seen advocated is the meat v veg portion ratio of 25:75 - basically if you want a 250g steak, then you should have 750g of veg on the same plate to balance it out - from Fit for Life or Health for Life diet, I forget it's actual title, as this was over 7 years ago that I came across this...

 

[stefan357965]

No, only meat

 

[gregrowlerson]

Firstly, thank-you to Big Mac (yes, as another pointed out; a rather ironic name!) for beginning this thread, and for sharing his wealth of knowledge with us on this subject; which is a fascinating one as it can branch off onto some many different points of discussion.

I found myself entering into this thread a couple of nights ago. I was sufficiently bored enough to do so (previously I've mostly just used the cycling forum for professional road cycling discussion), though also sufficiently alive enough. To both open the thread and to continue reading through to the end. It must have taken me a few hours to get through and it was well past midnight by the time that I finished, so the thread caught my attention pretty well.

That doesn't mean that I will become a vegan, or a vegetarian. It is not the start of something. But it is a start.

Just prior to stumbling upon this discussion I was doing some other reading, and a word that stuck in my craw from that was "selfish" (even though I wasn't thinking about vegetarianism/veganism at the time).

There was also the phrase, "straight from the horses mouth", though that's quite a different story....

SELFISH. That's the main talking point here, right?

Big Mac has made the regular points about eating meat being done for taste (pleasure) and for convenience, that we don't have to eat meat at all to survive. Very true, although on that point, I am not sure if completely eliminating animal products from ones diet is going to be overall more beneficial from a personal health perspective than to still be eating some meat? We are omnivores.

Iron deficiency?

I don't know much on these subjects though, so feel free to tell me otherwise.

Anyway, selfish. Let's talk about that, as individuals. Another poster mentioned that there are numerous ways that one can help the environment, other humans, other animals, etc. Some people do it in different ways. He was adamant that he was going to keep eating meat. Fair enough.

If Big Mac were to eat another Big Mac, he'd see the cow that he's eating. You know what I mean? He'd really see that cow being killed. He couldn't do it. A lot of this stuff is based on "turning a blind eye". As Big Mac has pointed out better than anyone.

But how much happiness and meaningfulness (and convenience) do we deserve to give ourselves?

Let's look at a subject already touched on here. The issue of humanity and sustenance. How do we feed ourselves now? And how will we be able to feed ourselves in the future? We know that there are MANY fellow humans starving to death in our current world.

I recently took the liberty of going on an overseas holiday. Did I have to do that? No, of course not. Did I want to do that? Absolutely! I cannot emphasise that enough. And I received immeasurable quantities of happiness and meaningfulness from my European adventure.

That $6,000 or $8,000 or whatever it was; that could have gone to others more needy. Hey, it could have gone directly to animals. But we can use humans in this example. How many African children could I have saved by giving that money to World Vision? Many. The point that I am attempting to make is that we could all probably do more for other creatures if we REALLY wanted to. Should we therefore not spend on luxuries for ourselves as a result? I can categorically say that my life wouldn't be anywhere near at all as meaningful today without my overseas trips. And those trips cost money, whilst thousands of people are starving....

I know that the point has been made that by not eating meat we increase our own sustainability. But one person becoming vegetarian/vegan is a much smaller (and less direct) impact than my example given above.

What if our minds and eyes have to permanently watch humans starving?? There's one dead. There's another. Doesn't a human starve to death every six seconds or so?

What about the need for humans to attach themselves to a label, to give themselves a name? How much does being a vegan feed Big Mac's ego? Probably a lot. How much does pointing that out feed mine? Probably a lot. I've just had a discussion with a mate (like me he eats a lot of meat, although he is someone who one can approach about a subject like this; he's open minded; most guys would just laugh you off) about Mount Everest, and the pursuits of humans to climb it. And more specifically to climb all the way to the TOP of it. Apparently about 80% of deaths from climbers occur during the final 10% or so of the ascent. Surely to climb to that 80% point is already an EXPERIENCE enough? It's certainly an epic ACHIEVEMENT in itself. But it probably wouldn't feed the individual ego enough, and when speaking to others in the aftermath, they wouldn't be able to say that; "I climbed Mt Everest."

And that probably works a little better in bars

So with Big Mac, I would ask what already has been (or at least something similar). If you knew a farmer and knew that that farmer treated his cows well and even supported them in life past their work usage date, could you then eat chocolate that included that cows milk?

I ask because a) I don't see how I could even become a vegan as I love chocolate!

And b) because I raise the point about labels; for if you drank that milk then you wouldn't be able to say; "I am a Vegan."

BTW, I haven't watched Earthlings; at least not yet.

And I am THE person that you described. The one who has pets - and treats them like a Queen and a King - and considers himself somewhat of an animal lover, but eats heaps of meat. In effect, killing heaps of animals in the process.

I feed my dogs processed meat too. So even if I change my eating habits I don't know if I'd stop with theirs. Although I have heard that cats must have meat in their diets, whereas dogs don't. Still, my dogs love their meatballs.

There's a heap more to say on this expansive topic, but - at least with some follow up correspondence - that is a start.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

"real" chocolate is vegan and diary free

The cacoa bean from which commercial chocolate is made is a raw ingredient, no dairy, gluten, or other allergenic components to be found. It is what is added to the bean in production that can cause concern.

The first stage of breaking down chocolate is the creation of cacao nibs. The raw beans are fermented, dried, cleaned, roasted, and shelled to reveal the cacao nibs that raw foodists hold so dear. To begin the chocolate transformation, the nibs are ground into cocoa mass (still pure chocolate), which is then liquefied to create chocolate liquor, or unsweetened chocolate. You might actually see chocolate liquor or unsweetened chocolate as an ingredient in some brands of chocolate, but it is often further processed into the following two components:

Cocoa Butter – The name is deceiving. Like in some other popular foods (ie peanut butter, apple butter), the term “butter” is not always related to dairy. Rather, it refers to the smooth and creamy texture of the product. Cocoa butter is actually the vegetable fat extracted from cacao beans. It is a pure ingredient that doesn’t contain any milk.
Cocoa Solids – This is the nonfat component of pure chocolate, which may often be referred to as cocoa powder, cocoa, or cacao.
Thus far, we are still dealing with pure chocolate, so all of the above is dairy-free (cocoa powder, cocoa butter, cocoa solids, cacao nibs, etc.). As we get into the creation of commercial chocolate, some other ingredients may be added.

A good quality dark or semi-sweet chocolate will only have sweetener / sugar in some form added, and may also include a touch of soy lecithin as an emulsifier. These brands are milk-free by ingredients, but keep in mind that most brands of chocolate are made on shared equipment. That is, an inherently milk-free dark chocolate may be made on the same equipment as milk chocolate.
The complications arrive as some brands of dark and semi-sweet chocolate do include milk ingredients for a “smoother” end result. This is particularly true in mainstream brands like Hershey’s. Some ways that you may see milk listed in the ingredients include milk solids, milk, milk powder, whey, butter oil or butterfat (see the Ask Alisa post on butter oil), or even casein. If milk is in the ingredients, it should be listed in a clearly identifiable manner per the labeling laws, but still, use caution.

Milk chocolate is just as the name implies, it does contain milk.

 

[jmdirt]

Firstly, thank-you to Big Mac (yes, as another pointed out; a rather ironic name!) for beginning this thread, and for sharing his wealth of knowledge with us on this subject; which is a fascinating one as it can branch off onto some many different points of discussion.

I found myself entering into this thread a couple of nights ago. I was sufficiently bored enough to do so (previously I've mostly just used the cycling forum for professional road cycling discussion), though also sufficiently alive enough. To both open the thread and to continue reading through to the end. It must have taken me a few hours to get through and it was well past midnight by the time that I finished, so the thread caught my attention pretty well.

That doesn't mean that I will become a vegan, or a vegetarian. It is not the start of something. But it is a start.

Just prior to stumbling upon this discussion I was doing some other reading, and a word that stuck in my craw from that was "selfish" (even though I wasn't thinking about vegetarianism/veganism at the time).

There was also the phrase, "straight from the horses mouth", though that's quite a different story....

SELFISH. That's the main talking point here, right?

Big Mac has made the regular points about eating meat being done for taste (pleasure) and for convenience, that we don't have to eat meat at all to survive. Very true, although on that point, I am not sure if completely eliminating animal products from ones diet is going to be overall more beneficial from a personal health perspective than to still be eating some meat? We are omnivores.

Iron deficiency?

I don't know much on these subjects though, so feel free to tell me otherwise.

Anyway, selfish. Let's talk about that, as individuals. Another poster mentioned that there are numerous ways that one can help the environment, other humans, other animals, etc. Some people do it in different ways. He was adamant that he was going to keep eating meat. Fair enough.

If Big Mac were to eat another Big Mac, he'd see the cow that he's eating. You know what I mean? He'd really see that cow being killed. He couldn't do it. A lot of this stuff is based on "turning a blind eye". As Big Mac has pointed out better than anyone.

But how much happiness and meaningfulness (and convenience) do we deserve to give ourselves?

Let's look at a subject already touched on here. The issue of humanity and sustenance. How do we feed ourselves now? And how will we be able to feed ourselves in the future? We know that there are MANY fellow humans starving to death in our current world.

I recently took the liberty of going on an overseas holiday. Did I have to do that? No, of course not. Did I want to do that? Absolutely! I cannot emphasise that enough. And I received immeasurable quantities of happiness and meaningfulness from my European adventure.

That $6,000 or $8,000 or whatever it was; that could have gone to others more needy. Hey, it could have gone directly to animals. But we can use humans in this example. How many African children could I have saved by giving that money to World Vision? Many. The point that I am attempting to make is that we could all probably do more for other creatures if we REALLY wanted to. Should we therefore not spend on luxuries for ourselves as a result? I can categorically say that my life wouldn't be anywhere near at all as meaningful today without my overseas trips. And those trips cost money, whilst thousands of people are starving....

I know that the point has been made that by not eating meat we increase our own sustainability. But one person becoming vegetarian/vegan is a much smaller (and less direct) impact than my example given above.

What if our minds and eyes have to permanently watch humans starving?? There's one dead. There's another. Doesn't a human starve to death every six seconds or so?

What about the need for humans to attach themselves to a label, to give themselves a name? How much does being a vegan feed Big Mac's ego? Probably a lot. How much does pointing that out feed mine? Probably a lot. I've just had a discussion with a mate (like me he eats a lot of meat, although he is someone who one can approach about a subject like this; he's open minded; most guys would just laugh you off) about Mount Everest, and the pursuits of humans to climb it. And more specifically to climb all the way to the TOP of it. Apparently about 80% of deaths from climbers occur during the final 10% or so of the ascent. Surely to climb to that 80% point is already an EXPERIENCE enough? It's certainly an epic ACHIEVEMENT in itself. But it probably wouldn't feed the individual ego enough, and when speaking to others in the aftermath, they wouldn't be able to say that; "I climbed Mt Everest."

And that probably works a little better in bars

So with Big Mac, I would ask what already has been (or at least something similar). If you knew a farmer and knew that that farmer treated his cows well and even supported them in life past their work usage date, could you then eat chocolate that included that cows milk?

I ask because a) I don't see how I could even become a vegan as I love chocolate!

And b) because I raise the point about labels; for if you drank that milk then you wouldn't be able to say; "I am a Vegan."

BTW, I haven't watched Earthlings; at least not yet.

And I am THE person that you described. The one who has pets - and treats them like a Queen and a King - and considers himself somewhat of an animal lover, but eats heaps of meat. In effect, killing heaps of animals in the process.

I feed my dogs processed meat too. So even if I change my eating habits I don't know if I'd stop with theirs. Although I have heard that cats must have meat in their diets, whereas dogs don't. Still, my dogs love their meatballs.

There's a heap more to say on this expansive topic, but - at least with some follow up correspondence - that is a start.

I won't speak for BigMac but my wife won't eat anything that was killed, but will eat eggs and cheese from animals that she knows.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I won't speak for BigMac but my wife won't eat anything that was killed, but will eat eggs and cheese from animals that she knows.

Is it a first name basis relations?

 

[jmdirt]

"Is it a first name basis relations? "

In a few cases, yes.

 

[Archibald]

I won't speak for BigMac but my wife won't eat anything that was killed, but will eat eggs and cheese from animals that she knows.

that made me think of something I experienced in my very early twenties when in the Philippines... we tried a local 'delicacy' from a street vendor one evening - some eggs boiling in a pot on a little gas stove... only these boiled eggs were a little more 'chewy' than the norm.
'Balut' it was called.
Tasty? yes
Texture - no problem.
It wasn't til after consuming that we were told exactly what it was. It is an older egg where the embryo has advanced beyond just the yolk and white, but not too far (about a week if I recall correctly).
Man, I was rather thankful that the street light above this vendor wasn't working too well!!
I do eat eggs now, as we know and are accustomed to them, but I highly doubt I'd ever do Balut again


Anyway, Gregrowlerson, very thoughtful post.
I'd be curious to know your thoughts/reaction to having viewed Earthlings, in particular the section on Food...

 

[gregrowlerson]

Just to continue on a little from my ramble the other day. Doing these at work. Nice use of 'downtime' during my lunchbreak.

Big Mac has made the point about many of us being caring towards animals when it suits us. I am clearly in that boat. There is a bias too, a favouring towards certain animals. For example I have never been on safari, but I'm quite a fan of African animals. I'd be like, "How could you eat (kill) that cheetah? It's graceful and beautiful."

As for a big bumbling beefy cow though....

So I thought of it with this analogy. That if I were a cannibal (yeah, like Merkx lol), and I was on a mountain, and Contador and Cavendish came climbing on their bikes towards me, then clearly I'd choose to eat Cavendish, because when Contador climbs he 'looks cuter'

So yeah, many of us do tend to favour cute and furry animals (just like we tend to favour the cute humans). Having said that, I've never held anything personal against people or cultures that eat dog (even though I could never do so myself); I just understand that different people's have different beliefs, backgrounds, mindsets.

Another topic within this topic that I've been thinking about is socially. As in the varying levels of freedom that different people have to become a vegetarian/vegan.

Of course people can do what they like, can be what they like, in a black and white sense. Only thing is that life is often more grey than that, and there are important things like relationships in business, friendships and actual partnerships to consider. For me personally I don't really have any grand restrictions relating to personal backlash if I walked down this road: I am single, have been for quite sometime, and am content enough if this status doesn't change (meaning that I'm not going to be someone who I don't want to be to impress and settle down with someone, so that gives me a certain level of freedom here). In the workplace I am situated in the building industry, so it's rather 'manly', however I'm only an office worker. But what if I was a sales rep and was out on the road and on sites regularly with other builders, and then out at functions with them trying to drum up sales? Suddenly you find yourself at a bistro and the cheap lunch on offer is the chicken parma. Perhaps it's even the only thing on offer; in any case, let's just say that all the guys are having it. A big builder is close to signing up with you, and thinks that he can "relate" to you. Suddenly you make this weird (to them) stance about not eating meat. Could squash what was going to be a big business deal.

I know that business and life often succeed based on strong principals, but they also succeed on getting along with others. Many people are in situations where compromises more or less have to be made. Maybe in this sales reps case, the business deal falls through, and now he and his can't afford to pay back the monthly payments on the huge mortgage on the home they've just bought.

Obviously anyone who works high up in the meat industry would find it extremely difficult to ever look at becoming a Veg (let's reduce the spelling here). Well, that's if the thought ever even crossed their mind....

Which is another point. Our life experiences will - or will not - lead us to a point where we are willing to at least look into the points that Big Mac is making.

Another poster who hardly eats meat made the valid point about eating it on a plane if there are no alternatives. I really liked his open mindedness, even if some may see his stance - or non stance - as weak. How about this scenario then?

I become Veg, and I'm being shouted a home cooked meal from my parents or grandparents. I could make a stand and not eat the chicken or whatever, but they've already bought it anyway, and given their advanced ages (can't - or are unlikely to - teach an old dog new tricks) I'm probably not going to change their mindset. Eating a little meat isn't going to do great harm to myself. So why create a huge 'food fight'?

Another topic; convenience. I am very lazy with food, and I don't enjoy cooking. I imagine that becoming Veg could make a big difference time wise (take up a lot of it). As others have said, being Veg will be cheaper than being a meat eater. It is convenient from a $ perspective. It's also a good idea for my own health to cut out - or at least significantly cut back on - fast foods.

I am still in the process of mulling much of this over.

Another point/question: I eat Subway sometimes, and one of the rolls that I get on occasion is the Veggie Patty. It tastes alright too. But from a Veg's perspective, is this going against principle as you are still supporting a company that sells truckloads of meat? Because you are still feeding 'the monster' as it were.

Really interested to hear more conversation here. Sorry, I'm still catching up on it all. I'm still digesting it.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

"real" chocolate is vegan and diary free

Milk chocolate is just as the name implies, it does contain milk. [/i][/b]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately the chocolate that I usually eat is extremely milky. Feels like I'm guzzling straight from the teat

And no pudding?? No Ice-cream????

Noooo!!!!

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Re: Re:

"real" chocolate is vegan and diary free

Milk chocolate is just as the name implies, it does contain milk. [/i][/b]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately the chocolate that I usually eat is extremely milky. Feels like I'm guzzling straight from the teat

And no pudding?? No Ice-cream????

Noooo!!!!

try the real stuff - it's actually very good and gives you a nice kick!

believe it or not, there are some very smart and intuitive people out making many "dairy free" alternatives to many things....including ice-cream.

change is very difficult for some people
you have to want to change for the right reasons when it comes to reducing your consumption of animal protein

ice cream tastes good
bacon tastes good
cheeses tastes good
pork chops taste good

just reminds of homer simpson type mentality

when you listen to / read the / view the science behind it all - it makes sense to some of us

 

[Jspear]

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

"real" chocolate is vegan and diary free

Milk chocolate is just as the name implies, it does contain milk. [/i][/b]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately the chocolate that I usually eat is extremely milky. Feels like I'm guzzling straight from the teat

And no pudding?? No Ice-cream????

Noooo!!!!

try the real stuff - it's actually very good and gives you a nice kick!

believe it or not, there are some very smart and intuitive people out making many "dairy free" alternatives to many things....including ice-cream.

change is very difficult for some people
you have to want to change for the right reasons when it comes to reducing your consumption of animal protein

ice cream tastes good
bacon tastes good
cheeses tastes good
pork chops taste good

just reminds of homer simpson type mentality

when you listen to / read the / view the science behind it all - it makes sense to some of us

I've also preferred light chocolate to dark chocolate (or poor quality to good quality ) for some reason. I'm a simple boy.

Hopefully not quite as simple as Homer Simpson! Actually I was remembering the Lisa vegetarian episode the other day (one of my favs), and that "wonderful, magical animal"

I don't particularly like cheese (no idea why), so cutting that out would be no issue, although I'm not even contemplating veganism. At the moment I'm just looking at reducing meat consumption and see how that goes. I mean, I do like the idea of not eating an animal. That's even before looking at Earthlings. I like the ideal, and the 'logic' behind it all.

So I haven't cut meat out yet, not at all. But on my last supermarket shop I didn't buy any (still got microwave curry and beef lasagna in the fridge to heat up) and the last couple of nights I've had apple pie (okay, that's not exactly a nutritious meal!) and baked beans (on toast, with butter) for dinner. I've felt okay. Even went for a jog last night.

Call me weak (well I probably am), but I will eat meat tomorrow. Work is having a "hot dog" day to celebrate the AFL Grand Final.

Oh, and on Sunday I had dinner at my parents place, and funnily enough my Mum's like; "I'm sorry, it's only vegetable soup (and bread)". Humans....they feel the need to apologise when they don't serve meat lol.

"You don't make friends with salad"

A point my best mate bought up the other day - we're discussing this topic a lot - is that you can't totally dissasociate yourself from it (meat). And so you shouldn't worry about that. For example, the grocer who I buy fresh vegies off might be a massive meat eater. We both agree that various people have varying beliefs, and we are both pretty tolerant guys, so it's acceptance of others beliefs, so long as they aren't forced down your throat.

I told him not to worry about me; that I'm already probably a pretentious w**ker

Side topic: Did the phrase; "What's your beef?" come from a Vegan?

Alright, that's all for now.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I was listening to a podcast talk between Sam Harris and Paul Bloom. They're both antagonizingly rational philosophy types, being a neurologist and psychologist, but I find them super interesting to listen to. Both admitted that they were fully aware of the immorality of factory farms and meat industry, and chose to eat meat from them anyway (Sam Harris said he got sick from poorly executed vegetarianism when he tried). They made the point that their future generations will probably look at our current treatment of animals like we look on our ancestors' treatment of slaves and colonies, but that they put those feelings aside (more or less).

Then one of them then asked a question: "Is this what evil feels like?" I'm not sure what I expect from the forum, but it was an interesting way to look at it.