Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Miburo]

Contador never lost a close GC battle in a GT. 2013 wasn't close, you can maybe argue tour 2011 was.

So what if he lost minutes at the finestre? Did he we win the giro? Yes so who cares? Irrelevant to your point to argue contador isn't clutch in close GT's.

How is it a fact that contador '09 was better than contador '14. Contador '14 in dauphine was better than contador '09, so why is it a stretch to think that he would not be equal in the tour?

Ah ah why didn't contador attack earlier? Very valid point and i'll give a valid answer. Contador thought he was racing for the stage win, he only found out at the end.

And of course we got the nibali apologist with 'he wasn't gonna bother to sprint', my favorite.

 

[dacooley]

Re:

will the 2014 tour ever reconcile fanboys in their points?

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

I'm totally neutral in this. My feeling is that Nibs wasn't losing to anyone with that big advantage. He was in amazing form last year. Now if he didn't get the big advantage, that's different. It was just too much time for AC to make up.

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

will the 2014 tour ever reconcile fanboys in their points?

Not about fanboys or not but when someone says wrong things i'll correct them if i feel like it. Simple.

 

[Publicus]

All of the folks posting about what numbers Nibali put up last year compared to 2013. Given how both Froome and Contador looked, it was entirely possible and likely they BOTH would have eclipsed (rather comfortably) Froome's 2013 numbers as well. Or is it only Nibali that can show improvement year over year? I would have thought by now folks would have given up this nonsensical argument--Nibali won the 2014 Tour de France, deal with it. No amount of speculation of what could have, would have or should have happened if both Froome and Contador stayed in the race is going to change that fact.

 

[46&twoWheels]

Re: Re:

will the 2014 tour ever reconcile fanboys in their points?

Not about fanboys or not but when someone says wrong things i'll correct them if i feel like it. Simple.

nobody is saying wrong things nor right, we're just making hypothesis

the only things that can be called "right" are data: Nibali had some real advantage, Contador didn't
Everything else is speculation

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

will the 2014 tour ever reconcile fanboys in their points?

Not about fanboys or not but when someone says wrong things i'll correct them if i feel like it. Simple.

thats all about versions, assumptions and so on. the subject under discussion has no absolute truth. alright, how do you determine the proportion between nibs and bertie chances before the high mountains? i, the neutral, would go with 65/35 in nibs favor

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

All of the folks posting about what numbers Nibali put up last year compared to 2013. Given how both Froome and Contador looked, it was entirely possible and likely they BOTH would have eclipsed (rather comfortably) Froome's 2013 numbers as well. Or is it only Nibali that can show improvement year over year? I would have thought by now folks would have given up this nonsensical argument--Nibali won the 2014 Tour de France, deal with it. No amount of speculation of what could have, would have or should have happened if both Froome and Contador stayed in the race is going to change that fact.

I agree with the bolded, but unfortunately we will never know for sure. I am one who has changed my mind about the 2014 battle. Initially, I thought Nibali wouldn't have been able to hold off Contador. But the more I think about it, the more I believe that the time gap would've been just too tough to overcome. Nibali was a better climber in 2014 than I had anticipated.

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

All of the folks posting about what numbers Nibali put up last year compared to 2013. Given how both Froome and Contador looked, it was entirely possible and likely they BOTH would have eclipsed (rather comfortably) Froome's 2013 numbers as well. Or is it only Nibali that can show improvement year over year? I would have thought by now folks would have given up this nonsensical argument--Nibali won the 2014 Tour de France, deal with it. No amount of speculation of what could have, would have or should have happened if both Froome and Contador stayed in the race is going to change that fact.

I agree with the bolded, but unfortunately we will never know for sure. I am one who has changed my mind about the 2014 battle. Initially, I thought Nibali wouldn't have been able to hold off Contador. But the more I think about it, the more I believe that the time gap would've been just too tough to overcome. Nibali was a better climber in 2014 than I had anticipated.

Exactly wat happened to me last year. I started thinking that Contador was superior. Then, after Gerardmer, I thought Nibali had 60% vs 40% chances over Contador, but after Nibali’s performances on the mountains I realized it was more like 99% vs 1%.
The thing that makes me laugh is that, even though he’s Italian like me and he used to live 50km far from where I live, I have no particular passion for Nibali. I actually think being in Astana he has some moral issues. On the other hand it’s pretty funny to read Miburo's impossible counterfactuals based on the fact Nibali was breathing heavier than Contador on Gerardmer. It just make me laugh.

 

[franic]

Re:

2013 wasn't close, you can maybe argue tour 2011 was.

You can say ex-post that it wasn’t close, but at stage 15 the difference between Froome and Contador was 10” more than what you had in Gerardmer between Nibali and Contador.

So what if he lost minutes at the finestre? Did he we win the giro? Yes so who cares? Irrelevant to your point to argue contador isn't clutch in close GT’s.

The only reason why Contador didn’t lose the Giro is because Martinelli wanted to keep pushing Aru. If you add the time lost by Landa in the ITT (do you really think he was 1’13” slower than Aru??), on the Mortirolo (he had to wait for Aru when Contador was chasing), at Cervinia (he couldn’t attack because Aru was in front) and Sestriere (he had to wait for Aru and was stupid enough not to let Zakarin win the Cima Coppi) you’ll se that it’s not so hard to get to the 3’05 he had in the end.

How is it a fact that contador '09 was better than contador '14. Contador '14 in dauphine was better than contador '09, so why is it a stretch to think that he would not be equal in the tour?

Contador 2009 had 6.7 W/Kg in Verbier. Contador, Valverde and Purito had had 6.28 W/Kg battling at Lagos de Cavadonga. Nibali alone had 6.29 W/Kg at Hautacam. Tell me where could Contador possibly steal 2’30 back from Nibali. Unless you have some type of supporting-induced blindness then you’ll agree with me that the answer is nowhere.

 

[Kwibus]

Madre mia!

Oh god not this discussion again.
Stop wasting your time. We will never know, fact is Nibali won the tour and Contador/Froome crashed out. "What if" whatever you want it wont change a thing and I garantee it, you will never agree with eachother so this discussion is soooo pointless.

 

[franic]

Re:

Madre mia!

Oh god not this discussion again.
Stop wasting your time. We will never know, fact is Nibali won the tour and Contador/Froome crashed out. "What if" whatever you want it wont change a thing and I garantee it, you will never agree with eachother so this discussion is soooo pointless.

It’s not a matter of agreeing. I don’t give a *** about Nibali, but it’s actually a matter of facts: Nibali was at least as strong as Contador in the mountains if you look at VAM and W/Kg data. Nibali started with over 2’30” on Contador, hence it was impossible to catch up.
On one side you have people reporting numbers and data, on the other people crying that Contador was breathing better than Nibali in Gerardmer.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Madre mia!

Oh god not this discussion again.
Stop wasting your time. We will never know, fact is Nibali won the tour and Contador/Froome crashed out. "What if" whatever you want it wont change a thing and I garantee it, you will never agree with eachother so this discussion is soooo pointless.

It’s not a matter of agreeing. I don’t give a *** about Nibali, but it’s actually a matter of facts: Nibali was at least as strong as Contador in the mountains if you look at VAM and W/Kg data. Nibali started with over 2’30” on Contador, hence it was impossible to catch up.
On one side you have people reporting numbers and data, on the other people crying that Contador was breathing better than Nibali in Gerardmer.

We don't know. It's not a fact.

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

Madre mia!

Oh god not this discussion again.
Stop wasting your time. We will never know, fact is Nibali won the tour and Contador/Froome crashed out. "What if" whatever you want it wont change a thing and I garantee it, you will never agree with eachother so this discussion is soooo pointless.

It’s not a matter of agreeing. I don’t give a *** about Nibali, but it’s actually a matter of facts: Nibali was at least as strong as Contador in the mountains if you look at VAM and W/Kg data. Nibali started with over 2’30” on Contador, hence it was impossible to catch up.
On one side you have people reporting numbers and data, on the other people crying that Contador was breathing better than Nibali in Gerardmer.

Where do you have figures for Contador for the 2014 Tour de France?

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

Madre mia!

Oh god not this discussion again.
Stop wasting your time. We will never know, fact is Nibali won the tour and Contador/Froome crashed out. "What if" whatever you want it wont change a thing and I garantee it, you will never agree with eachother so this discussion is soooo pointless.

It’s not a matter of agreeing. I don’t give a *** about Nibali, but it’s actually a matter of facts: Nibali was at least as strong as Contador in the mountains if you look at VAM and W/Kg data. Nibali started with over 2’30” on Contador, hence it was impossible to catch up.
On one side you have people reporting numbers and data, on the other people crying that Contador was breathing better than Nibali in Gerardmer.

No you don't know since Contador wasn't there anymore. We can only guess from numbers.
Maybe Contador was weaker, maybe stronger, maybe as strong. WE DON'T KNOW!

Maybe Nibali took it easy and could ride 6.9kg/w for 3 hours.....

 

[May0maniac]

I have a gut feeling that he'll be 2nd, but it will be pretty close and people will respect him way more than they do right now.

 

[Miburo]

Re:

I have a gut feeling that he'll be 2nd, but it will be pretty close and people will respect him way more than they do right now.

Nothing in this tour will do the trick for me, threw once again an entire year away for 1 peak

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

Madre mia!

Oh god not this discussion again.
Stop wasting your time. We will never know, fact is Nibali won the tour and Contador/Froome crashed out. "What if" whatever you want it wont change a thing and I garantee it, you will never agree with eachother so this discussion is soooo pointless.

It’s not a matter of agreeing. I don’t give a *** about Nibali, but it’s actually a matter of facts: Nibali was at least as strong as Contador in the mountains if you look at VAM and W/Kg data. Nibali started with over 2’30” on Contador, hence it was impossible to catch up.
On one side you have people reporting numbers and data, on the other people crying that Contador was breathing better than Nibali in Gerardmer.

No you don't know since Contador wasn't there anymore. We can only guess from numbers.
Maybe Contador was weaker, maybe stronger, maybe as strong. WE DON'T KNOW!

Maybe Nibali took it easy and could ride 6.9kg/w for 3 hours.....

Exactly. It's a monumental waste of time to speculate what could have happened...

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

I have a gut feeling that he'll be 2nd, but it will be pretty close and people will respect him way more than they do right now.

Nothing in this tour will do the trick for me, threw once again an entire year away for 1 peak

Dropped by Greipel in MSR is enough to take any respect away

 

[Taxus4a]

The forecast is good weather... without rain difficult for Nibali to make the difference, although he will be a difficult contender

 

[FCKAC]

Re:

The forecast is good weather... without rain difficult for Nibali to make the difference, although he will be a difficult contender

Dry cobble actually is harder for the light weight riders in terms of watt output. We already knew how GC guys did on wet cobble last year, so I will be happy to see how they perform on dry cobble this year.

 

[Mozart92]

Re: Re:

Madre mia!

Oh god not this discussion again.
Stop wasting your time. We will never know, fact is Nibali won the tour and Contador/Froome crashed out. "What if" whatever you want it wont change a thing and I garantee it, you will never agree with eachother so this discussion is soooo pointless.

It’s not a matter of agreeing. I don’t give a *** about Nibali, but it’s actually a matter of facts: Nibali was at least as strong as Contador in the mountains if you look at VAM and W/Kg data. Nibali started with over 2’30” on Contador, hence it was impossible to catch up.
On one side you have people reporting numbers and data, on the other people crying that Contador was breathing better than Nibali in Gerardmer.

In order to win the Tour you need to reach the end of the 21st stage. That's more important than being the strongest climber in the world. Don't make cycling look like a horse race where power is the only thing that matters. Nibali reached Paris and Contador didn't. This is a fact. DIfficult stages and crashes are part of the sport.

 

[happytramp]

We've been through this a million times only ludicrous fanboys care anymore. If someone can't make it, drops out, crashes or whatever..... forget them, they weren't good enough that year. Better luck next time.

Froome and Contador or whoever don't want anyone complaining on their behalf, they know that's how cycling works and don't want to look like sore losers.

 

[Squirbos_19]

I got a few pics of Nibali up close on the bike, he looks good, I'll post them in a bit. He's one of three riders I hope will win the Tour.

 

[FCKAC]

Re:

I got a few pics of Nibali up close on the bike, he looks good, I'll post them in a bit. He's one of three riders I hope will win the Tour.

You were there? Lucky man or woman!