Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Nirvana]

Re:

No race for Nibali till the Tour.
Hard to believe he could be anything more than a helper/stage hunter.

Slongo during a "Processo alla tappa" said that the plan for the Tour was starting without condition and gaining it during the race, at that moment they was thinking to change it because was over 4 minutes down but after his comeback in the latter stages probably they confirmed the original plan.
Anyway it's strange that he doesn't want to defend his national champion title.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Nibali doens't need to do anything.
He's a champion, deal with it.

As usual, you have missed the point.

Were you making a point?

I rest my case.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

A rider wins a GT because his main rival fails on a climb or time trial and everyone recognises the result as legitimate.

A rider wins a GT because his main rival fails on a descent and everyone calls it luck.

Note the double standards.

Nibali was the worthy winner of every single GT in his palmares —he may not have been the best climber or time triallist, but he was the best rider overall by virtue of managing to stay on his bike where his opponents did not.

 

[Rollthedice]

So what will you say if next year, Froome will either crash again (high possibility) or starts declining, Contador misses his peak for various reasons and Quintana choses the Giro, Nibali wins. Will we start again with the same story? How long will you question his ability to win any Grand Tour? Is it OK for you if he'll end his career with 5 GTs or it has to be seven to qualify as a great champion? Honestly I don't understand what he has to prove against Froome, Contador and Quintana. He signs up for a GT along other riders. Contenders come and go, their shape varies, the route is different. Four times he won, other four times he was on the podium and some other times in top 10 regardless of who he faced or who finished the race. That is all that matters and trust me, not only for his fans.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

A rider wins a GT because his main rival fails on a climb or time trial and everyone recognises the result as legitimate.

A rider wins a GT because his main rival fails on a descent and everyone calls it luck.

Note the double standards.

Nibali was the worthy winner of every single GT in his palmares —he may not have been the best climber or time triallist, but he was the best rider overall by virtue of managing to stay on his bike where his opponents did not.

 

[Climbing]

Re: Re:

Nibali doens't need to do anything.
He's a champion, deal with it.

As usual, you have missed the point.

Were you making a point?

I rest my case.

I think you missed my sarcasm.
We should stop missing I guess, and riders should stop falling.
Maybe we should awards races with a power meter, wouldn't that be fair?!

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

No race for Nibali till the Tour.
Hard to believe he could be anything more than a helper/stage hunter.

Slongo during a "Processo alla tappa" said that the plan for the Tour was starting without condition and gaining it during the race, at that moment they was thinking to change it because was over 4 minutes down but after his comeback in the latter stages probably they confirmed the original plan.
Anyway it's strange that he doesn't want to defend his national champion title.

The route is not for him, he can't win.

 

[Carols]

Re:

Nibali doens't need to do anything.
He's a champion, deal with it.

Spoken For Truth

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Nibali doens't need to do anything.
He's a champion, deal with it.

As usual, you have missed the point.

Were you making a point?

I rest my case.

I think you missed my sarcasm.
We should stop missing I guess, and riders should stop falling.
Maybe we should awards races with a power meter, wouldn't that be fair?!

Well life's unfair. I'm ok with it though. I just don't laud the fact.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Not really. KB is saying that as a GT rider winning a Lombardia as well as podiuming Liege and MSR show he is the best of all the GT riders, as he isn't a one or two trick pony. Had Gilbert also done well in GTs as in winning 3 or 4 then yes, you could claim that but he hasn't. I think you missed KB's point a bit.

He is not saying he is the best of the grand tour riders.."Greatest GT rider of his generation does it again". You are probably right, that he is trying to say he is the most complete of them but when you write he is the best grand tour rider i take it as beeing the best at rideing grand tours. And as i said your abillity to ride classics arent the same as your abillity to ride grand tours

Brullnux gets my reasoning.

Cycling has become more and more about specialisation to the point where riders rarely have the ability to win more than one type of race. The greats of GT riding since Greg LeMond are pretty much the apex of this, but in achieving GT greatness it seems they have had to sacrifice pretty much any chance of winning a one day race. The same can be said of the great one day racers of the recent era. This didn't used to be the case. Hinault, Coppi, Merckx, Bartali, Gimondi and to a lesser extent Fignon, Kelly, Roche, Bugno, Bobet. The greats of the past could do both, win GTs and Monuments and the lesser riders would still challenge in both to varying degrees.

Races have changed, the ability of riders, general level of the peloton and training and technology have made it so we are unlikely to see the likes of the Merckx, Hinault or Coppi again. Nibali does not match these guys but he has achieved something very rare in modern GT riders. He has the ability to challenge in almost any race he enters. When he's fit and has a goal Vincenzo Nibali is always among the favourites, he is even when he isn't fit. This is what, in my eyes makes him the greatest. He hasn't gone the all out, specialist GT rider, he has retained the ability to be a threat and win in almost any bike race he wants to. It's not about number of wins for me. Winning Tour after Tour is boring. You build your routine around it and do the same thing every year. It allows you to completely focus on that one goal. Nibali doesn't do that, he has the ability to win races across the board. The only person currently riding who comes close to that is Valverde.

He is the greatest of his generation, not because of number of wins, but because he has not had to sacrifice every other possible win to win GTs.

Anyone is free to agree or disagree with that. We all have separate criteria for what we think is great.

 

[Pippo_San]

Re: Re:

Aru has shown nothing in one day races. I don't even get why he should be taken to Rio.

He was 9th in Lombardia two years ago coming from the Vuelta.

Well it looks to me quite a forgettable result.
And he doesn't get along very well with Nibbles.

I'd leave him home without second thoughts. I find it hard to believe he will be decisive in Rio.

 

[malakassis]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

lets devide froome,quintana,contador,nibali (the big four) in roughly 2 categories:

1: the physically strongest: Quintana and Froome. Froome by far the best ITT, Quintana the best climber. as they are used to rely on raw fitness, they didnt need develop that much taktikal awerness. this is sometimes obvious

2: the mentally/tactical/peloton-alliances users (e.g the smarts): Contador and Nibali. The older AC became, the more he used this taktical think. he realised that he wasnt as strong as in 2007-2009 and he adapted. Nibali was never the strongest TT and never the best climber. still winning 4GTs he s got to be the smartest of those big 4. like contador he has many friends in the peloton and his charakter is more of patron.

 

[portugal11]

Froome doesn't do a good time trial since dauphiné 2014 but people are always insisting that he is by far the best time trialist...ok... he isn't better than contador...

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

lets devide froome,quintana,contador,nibali (the big four) in roughly 2 categories:

1: the physically strongest: Quintana and Froome. Froome by far the best ITT, Quintana the best climber. as they are used to rely on raw fitness, they didnt need develop that much taktikal awerness. this is sometimes obvious

2: the mentally/tactical/peloton-alliances users (e.g the smarts): Contador and Nibali. The older AC became, the more he used this taktical think. he realised that he wasnt as strong as in 2007-2009 and he adapted. Nibali was never the strongest TT and never the best climber. still winning 4GTs he s got to be the smartest of those big 4. like contador he has many friends in the peloton and his charakter is more of patron.

Disagree with this. In 3 of the GTs the other 3 were not present and the TDF the other 2 crashed out before even becoming a factor. So winning 4 GTs does not prove smartness except that choices have been favorable to win GTs.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Personally, I think Nibalis style of attacking on downhill is pretty desperate. Hes very adept at it but it's designed to put other riders who have more to lose in danger.

If they fall because there outside of there comfort zone then he does not give a ****, and that's nothing to be proud of in my book.

Others think it's all part of the game but my interest is in a riders physical abilities on a man to man battle going uphill.

Honoured to have you reading, Andy. But didn't you have to take on some difficult descents attacking when you won LBL?

If a rider falls because they're outside of their comfort zone, they could always, you know, not go out of their comfort zone and drop back. Good descending is about being technically skilled and having the daring. If you have the daring, you have to have the skills to back it up otherwise you run the risk of crashing, and if you have the skills you have to have the daring otherwise you'll float down in a pack and not get the benefits. Nibali put pressure on Kruijswijk's descending skills, and Kruijswijk had the choice of drop back and risk toasting himself in the valley, or pushing on to follow Nibali, and he made what turned out to be the wrong choice. It's rudimentary tactics - rider with advantage in a particular part of the course puts pressure on leader, leader has to make decision on how to react. Nobody wanted Kruijswijk to crash, even Nibali, but I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to profit using his descending skills from a situation he made himself which was intended entirely to take advantage of his superior descending skills.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

lets devide froome,quintana,contador,nibali (the big four) in roughly 2 categories:

1: the physically strongest: Quintana and Froome. Froome by far the best ITT, Quintana the best climber. as they are used to rely on raw fitness, they didnt need develop that much taktikal awerness. this is sometimes obvious

2: the mentally/tactical/peloton-alliances users (e.g the smarts): Contador and Nibali. The older AC became, the more he used this taktical think. he realised that he wasnt as strong as in 2007-2009 and he adapted. Nibali was never the strongest TT and never the best climber. still winning 4GTs he s got to be the smartest of those big 4. like contador he has many friends in the peloton and his charakter is more of patron.

Disagree with this. In 3 of the GTs the other 3 were not present and the TDF the other 2 crashed out before even becoming a factor. So winning 4 GTs does not prove smartness except that choices have been favorable to win GTs.

One of the smartest tactics in the world of war is to choose the battles you enter based on how likely you are to win. Sure some of the fields Nibali beat aren't that strong but you can't fault the reasoning. After all, there are plenty of riders who never won a GT who are much stronger GT riders than some who did. Remember the endless Menchov vs. Evans debate prior to Cuddles finally winning the Tour?

 

[Red Rick]

While alroundedness is a quality to admire, I don't think it's worth that much in absolute terms on your palmares. I certainly don't think Nibali has given up anything in his GT racing by riding one day races. I think it mostly shows in the shorter stage races. That's why I think its somewhat overrated. So I don't think that a monument and some very good other placings in monuments and a WCRR are something to take over 3* GTs. But it always depends on how you phrase it.

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

But monuments, WCRR, Olympics, etc. Are much, much more valuable IMHO then collecting more GTs after you already won all of them

 

[Red Rick]

If you won them all, or like the really different ones. GT champion wins a monument that only suits great climbers is suddenly so magically great that it makes up any deficit in GT wins?

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

lets devide froome,quintana,contador,nibali (the big four) in roughly 2 categories:

1: the physically strongest: Quintana and Froome. Froome by far the best ITT, Quintana the best climber. as they are used to rely on raw fitness, they didnt need develop that much taktikal awerness. this is sometimes obvious

2: the mentally/tactical/peloton-alliances users (e.g the smarts): Contador and Nibali. The older AC became, the more he used this taktical think. he realised that he wasnt as strong as in 2007-2009 and he adapted. Nibali was never the strongest TT and never the best climber. still winning 4GTs he s got to be the smartest of those big 4. like contador he has many friends in the peloton and his charakter is more of patron.

Let's see. They are all at the start of the Tour. Should be a good battle, if they all stay upright.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Personally, I think Nibalis style of attacking on downhill is pretty desperate. Hes very adept at it but it's designed to put other riders who have more to lose in danger.

If they fall because there (they're) outside of there comfort zone then he does not give a ****, and that's nothing to be proud of in my book.

Others think it's all part of the game but my interest is in a riders physical abilities on a man to man battle going uphill.

I completely disagree. You are forgetting that he is getting to the top with them (his ability to battle going uphill) otherwise he couldn't get them out of their comfort zone on the descent. A GT winner should be the best at all aspects of racing over 20ish days.

 

[El Pistolero]

I hope he goes for the polkadot jersey and stage hunting in the Tour. But probably not...

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Personally, I think Nibalis style of attacking on downhill is pretty desperate. Hes very adept at it but it's designed to put other riders who have more to lose in danger.

If they fall because there outside of there comfort zone then he does not give a ****, and that's nothing to be proud of in my book.

Others think it's all part of the game but my interest is in a riders physical abilities on a man to man battle going uphill.

Let's make every single stage an ITT then, shall we? That way we can reduce it all to a simplistic assessment of sheer physical abilities.

 

[jmdirt]

All the talk about luck, what about VN's 'bad luck' to have gastro issues? Or does luck only go in one direction?

 

[rhubroma]

Merckx also won five Tours because Ocana crashed out, but that was hardly a win of strength.

Nibali had gastro problems, because he was shitiing himself that Krusijwijk was so much stronger.