Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Netserk]

Imo it was the best stage of the year together with the Stelvio stage. As for best single day of racing, both Ronde and Roubaix were obviously a lot better, but I don't think it's fair to compare stages to classics.

 

[Electress]

Lol, don't see anything really negative in Flo's posts here, but it seems people are just looking for arguments in this thread too

Regarding Nibali being scared. I dunno. I don't think it's ridiculous. Maybe having pride means you want to avoid a high risk Giro vs Contador where you risk getting your *** kicked by the guy who would've challenged you in the Tour you won last year, on home soil, as Italian champ. You can only be afraid if you've got something to lose, and in this Giro, Nibali would have an insane lot to lose. I think riding the Tour instead is sensible, the Tour is bigger, he's defending champ, and maybe its more acceptable to loose when you're facing all the big guns. He certainly may have planned to do the Giro if Contador hadn't gone there, racking up a pretty easy win against the likes of Uran, basically doing the same as Contador will probably be doing. Now, riding the Tour might be less risky for his chance of winning a GT and it is certainly less risky for his legacy.

It is not necessarily being afraid, but I think he realises he has a lot to loose than the last time he tried to beat Contador in the Giro

I don't think these guys get to where they are by running scared of tough competition, so I just don't buy the Nibali is scared stuff. I would imagine, given he is the national champ and TdF winner, he would want to ride the Giro and take on Contador but there are 'bigger' things - the TdF, the sponsors etc. He isn't doing just what he wants. I don't honestly have the impression that Nibali is a rider who is just picking off easy races when no one else turns up, so why would he start now?

Let's be honest, most people would think he was the underdog anyway in the Giro because most people rate Contador as the better rider - I'm not talking about fanboys and girls of either side, I'm trying to be objective and given AC's form this year and his credentials in the mountains, he'll start as bookie's favourite. So unless Nibali lost horrifically, he would not 'disgrace' himself or his legacy - it would just work out as the bookies predicted. And he's unlikely to lose horrifically because Contador is going to be in 'minimum effort' mode for the double. That is also going to mean Nibali would favour his chances to best him this year of all years. In short - there are plenty of reasons why Nibali would want to show up for this Giro - and over-riding reasons why he cannot which are nothing to do with being frightened.

and just as I think its pretty ridiculous to imagine this of Nibali, I think it is frankly laughable to imagine AC is racing the Giro to 'have an excuse' of not winning the TdF. Both riders are demonstrably made of better stuff than that. Give them a bit of credit.

 

[peloton]

I don't think these guys get to where they are by running scared of tough competition, so I just don't buy the Nibali is scared stuff. I would imagine, given he is the national champ and TdF winner, he would want to ride the Giro and take on Contador but there are 'bigger' things - the TdF, the sponsors etc. He isn't doing just what he wants. I don't honestly have the impression that Nibali is a rider who is just picking off easy races when no one else turns up, so why would he start now?

Let's be honest, most people would think he was the underdog anyway in the Giro because most people rate Contador as the better rider - I'm not talking about fanboys and girls of either side, I'm trying to be objective and given AC's form this year and his credentials in the mountains, he'll start as bookie's favourite. So unless Nibali lost horrifically, he would not 'disgrace' himself or his legacy - it would just work out as the bookies predicted. And he's unlikely to lose horrifically because Contador is going to be in 'minimum effort' mode for the double. That is also going to mean Nibali would favour his chances to best him this year of all years. In short - there are plenty of reasons why Nibali would want to show up for this Giro - and over-riding reasons why he cannot which are nothing to do with being frightened.

and just as I think its pretty ridiculous to imagine this of Nibali, I think it is frankly laughable to imagine AC is racing the Giro to 'have an excuse' of not winning the TdF. Both riders are demonstrably made of better stuff than that. Give them a bit of credit.

Excellent post, fully agree.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Excellent post, fully agree.

yes I agree, good post from Electress (as usual)

 

[Red Rick]

I don't think these guys get to where they are by running scared of tough competition, so I just don't buy the Nibali is scared stuff. I would imagine, given he is the national champ and TdF winner, he would want to ride the Giro and take on Contador but there are 'bigger' things - the TdF, the sponsors etc. He isn't doing just what he wants. I don't honestly have the impression that Nibali is a rider who is just picking off easy races when no one else turns up, so why would he start now?

Let's be honest, most people would think he was the underdog anyway in the Giro because most people rate Contador as the better rider - I'm not talking about fanboys and girls of either side, I'm trying to be objective and given AC's form this year and his credentials in the mountains, he'll start as bookie's favourite. So unless Nibali lost horrifically, he would not 'disgrace' himself or his legacy - it would just work out as the bookies predicted. And he's unlikely to lose horrifically because Contador is going to be in 'minimum effort' mode for the double. That is also going to mean Nibali would favour his chances to best him this year of all years. In short - there are plenty of reasons why Nibali would want to show up for this Giro - and over-riding reasons why he cannot which are nothing to do with being frightened.

and just as I think its pretty ridiculous to imagine this of Nibali, I think it is frankly laughable to imagine AC is racing the Giro to 'have an excuse' of not winning the TdF. Both riders are demonstrably made of better stuff than that. Give them a bit of credit.

This doesn't necessarily contradict my post. He has more to win at the Tour, and less to loose. I think that's pretty sensible. That doesn't mean he is making his decision out of fear.

He could go to the Giro for two different reasons.

1) Go to the Giro because its likely his one time chance to ride it as Italian champ and reigning TdF champ. I can imagine it must be an insane experience to ride the Giro in those circumstances

2) Try to do the double.

However, Nibali will want to be 100% at the Tour too, and with Contador going to the Giro, I think he realises that doing the double is impossible, (at least for him).

I think Nibali at least though about going to the Giro, and I think Contador may have put an end to that. Not necessarily out of fear, but out of realism. He needs to be at 100% to have a shot at winning either, which is insanely hard, and he doesn't want to defend his Tour in bad form.

 

[pigoonse]

Lol, don't see anything really negative in Flo's posts here, but it seems people are just looking for arguments in this thread too

Regarding Nibali being scared. I dunno. I don't think it's ridiculous. Maybe having pride means you want to avoid a high risk Giro vs Contador where you risk getting your *** kicked by the guy who would've challenged you in the Tour you won last year, on home soil, as Italian champ. You can only be afraid if you've got something to lose, and in this Giro, Nibali would have an insane lot to lose. I think riding the Tour instead is sensible, the Tour is bigger, he's defending champ, and maybe its more acceptable to loose when you're facing all the big guns. He certainly may have planned to do the Giro if Contador hadn't gone there, racking up a pretty easy win against the likes of Uran, basically doing the same as Contador will probably be doing. Now, riding the Tour might be less risky for his chance of winning a GT and it is certainly less risky for his legacy.

It is not necessarily being afraid, but I think he realises he has a lot to loose than the last time he tried to beat Contador in the Giro

Red Rick, it sounds like you and many other posters here are guessing that you have the ability to know what Nibali is thinking feeling from your own estimation of what would intimidate yourself and applying that to Nibali, who I doubt very much thinks like you, me, or anyone here about riding against the likes of even a legend as Contador. It is his job and what he loves to do (Nibali). Sure there is much to lose but it is not uncommon for an elite athlete and champion to believe in himself, even if a head to head is not in his favor, and believe he can win. If he loses, there is no shame in losing to Contador is there, really? Nibali is not looking for an easy win anymore than Alberto Contador is - imo.

If I was Nibali, I would have shrunk away from riding vs Contador forever after the *** kicking i got at the 2011 Giro. But there Nibali is, working to improve, lining up next to Contador, Froome, whoever, race after race, sometimes he at least podium's, like at Giro 2011, TdF 2012 and sometimes he wins as in Tirreno-Adriatico 2013. But by the "chicken and scared" theory, Nibs should have found an excuse not to ride 2014 TdF for fear of another ***kicking. He is not afraid of failure.

Personally I wish all of the top GT riders would go do the Giro-Tour 2015 because there is more anticipation and excitement with all of them there. As we see though, just because they all show up at the start line, however, does not mean that the 3 week race will be what all the fans hoped for.

 

[Rollthedice]

This doesn't necessarily contradict my post. He has more to win at the Tour, and less to loose. I think that's pretty sensible. That doesn't mean he is making his decision out of fear.

He could go to the Giro for two different reasons.

1) Go to the Giro because its likely his one time chance to ride it as Italian champ and reigning TdF champ. I can imagine it must be an insane experience to ride the Giro in those circumstances

2) Try to do the double.

However, Nibali will want to be 100% at the Tour too, and with Contador going to the Giro, I think he realises that doing the double is impossible, (at least for him).

I think Nibali at least though about going to the Giro, and I think Contador may have put an end to that. Not necessarily out of fear, but out of realism. He needs to be at 100% to have a shot at winning either, which is insanely hard, and he doesn't want to defend his Tour in bad form.

I think Slongo has a fair point here:

"Considering the Giro d'Italia route, with two mountain finishes in the first week, it means you can't start the Corsa Rosa in early May at 80% of your form and grow. You have to be ready. That means having a peak of form for close to three months and that's impossible,”

This fear stuff is pure fiction. Nibali started the Giro he won against the reigning TdF winner and this year's Tour against the Vroome and Contador. Next year's Tour will bring in the mix also that Colombian wonderboy so what more do you want? Vino and the guys who pay Nibali need him fully charged to defend his title. If he will not win, which is quite possible we'll see him in 2016 Giro. Frankly, as a supporter I'd rather would like him to win a monument, be a World Champion and maybe another Giro than develop an obsession for TdF as in being crap all year and peak for July. He has nothing left to prove.

 

[pigoonse]

Pigoonse and I really think the same about a lot of things.

Also about the attitude of some. Too much provocation and not enough explanation(about a blunt statement) in many posts which derail so many threads in mud throwing.

Yes, this is what I was trying to explain

 

[pigoonse]

I think Slongo has a fair point here:

"Considering the Giro d'Italia route, with two mountain finishes in the first week, it means you can't start the Corsa Rosa in early May at 80% of your form and grow. You have to be ready. That means having a peak of form for close to three months and that's impossible,”

This fear stuff is pure fiction. Nibali started the Giro he won against the reigning TdF winner and this year's Tour against the Vroome and Contador. Next year's Tour will bring in the mix also that Colombian wonderboy so what more do you want? Vino and the guys who pay Nibali need him fully charged to defend his title. If he will not win, which is quite possible we'll see him in 2016 Giro. Frankly, as a supporter I'd rather would like him to win a monument, be a World Champion and maybe another Giro than develop an obsession for TdF as in being crap all year and peak for July. He has nothing left to prove.

Me too. Would love to see him go for LBL, WC or at least keep trying for Lombardia.

 

[Jspear]

Red Rick, it sounds like you and many other posters here are guessing that you have the ability to know what Nibali is thinking feeling from your own estimation of what would intimidate yourself and applying that to Nibali, who I doubt very much thinks like you, me, or anyone here about riding against the likes of even a legend as Contador. It is his job and what he loves to do (Nibali). Sure there is much to lose but it is not uncommon for an elite athlete and champion to believe in himself, even if a head to head is not in his favor, and believe he can win. If he loses, there is no shame in losing to Contador is there, really? Nibali is not looking for an easy win anymore than Alberto Contador is - imo.

If I was Nibali, I would have shrunk away from riding vs Contador forever after the *** kicking i got at the 2011 Giro. But there Nibali is, working to improve, lining up next to Contador, Froome, whoever, race after race, sometimes he at least podium's, like at Giro 2011, TdF 2012 and sometimes he wins as in Tirreno-Adriatico 2013. But by the "chicken and scared" theory, Nibs should have found an excuse not to ride 2014 TdF for fear of another ***kicking. He is not afraid of failure.

Personally I wish all of the top GT riders would go do the Giro-Tour 2015 because there is more anticipation and excitement with all of them there. As we see though, just because they all show up at the start line, however, does not mean that the 3 week race will be what all the fans hoped for.

Aye aye. If Nibbes was skipping the Giro because of fear of AC, then he'd also be skipping the Tour (assuming Froome reached his 2013 levels again.)
If he was looking for an easy win he would peak for the Vuelta.

 

[pigoonse]

Aye aye. If Nibbes was skipping the Giro because of fear of AC, then he'd also be skipping the Tour (assuming Froome reached his 2013 levels again.)
If he was looking for an easy win he would peak for the Vuelta.

Maybe i used too strong of a word to describe what i think of the 'afraid of Contador' idea when i said it was ridiculous. Rollthedice said it better and simply: it is pure fiction. But it's an appealing fiction for many, i guess. On the other side, there is that story promoted to provoke about Contador using the Giro as an excuse in case he loses the Tour. As Electress wrote a few posts ago, both riders are made of better stuff and deserve more credit.

As for riding the Vuelta, it's incredible to me that anyone would think of riding a 3 week tour like the Vuelta, usually in suffocating heat, as easy - i find it hard to consider winning any of the GT's easy or downgrade the accomplishment, whatever the competition - but yeah, that's the general thinking and opinion of many posters here - so i see what you are saying, Jspear.

Hope you are having a fun thanksgiving weekend

 

[Jspear]

Maybe i used too strong of a word to describe what i think of the 'afraid of Contador' idea when i said it was ridiculous. Rollthedice said it better and simply: it is pure fiction. But it's an appealing fiction for many, i guess. On the other side, there is that story promoted to provoke about Contador using the Giro as an excuse in case he loses the Tour. As Electress wrote a few posts ago, both riders are made of better stuff and deserve more credit.

As for riding the Vuelta, it's incredible to me that anyone would think of riding a 3 week tour like the Vuelta, usually in suffocating heat, as easy - i find it hard to consider winning any of the GT's easy or downgrade the accomplishment, whatever the competition - but yeah, that's the general thinking and opinion of many posters here - so i see what you are saying, Jspear.

Hope you are having a fun thanksgiving weekend

I was agreeing with your post. I think me saying "aye aye" made that unclear. I agree with you that Nibbes being scared is fiction. I was saying that if he really was scared (I don't think he is) then by that logic he would skip the Tour as well (because there will be tough competition there as well.) And you are right the Vuelta isn't easy. The only thing in 2015 that could make it easier than the Giro and Tour is if all the big riders are tired from riding the Giro and Tour.

Yes my thanksgiving weekend has been excellent. Lot's to be thankful for.

 

[pigoonse]

I was agreeing with your post. I think me saying "aye aye" made that unclear. I agree with you that Nibbes being scared is fiction. I was saying that if he really was scared (I don't think he is) then by that logic he would skip the Tour as well (because there will be tough competition there as well.) And you are right the Vuelta isn't easy. The only thing in 2015 that could make it easier than the Giro and Tour is if all the big riders are tired from riding the Giro and Tour.

Yes my thanksgiving weekend has been excellent. Lot's to be thankful for.

ah, you meant 2015 Vuelta specifically. i was thinking you meant any la Vuelta in general. yes, good point about 2015 - the main competition is likely to be softened up. if VN did decide to skip the Tour and go ride the Vuelta that would make me wonder about him! Vino would fire him too

i have eaten too much turkey and pie - my mind has gone soft from all the tryptophan and sugar

 

[LaFlorecita]

Nibali does have something to prove. We still don't know if he can he beat the best GT riders at their best. I think he can't.

By the way, I think Nibali was initially looking for another easy win, ie win the Giro at 80% and then ride the Tour, since he has only a very small chance to repeat anyway. But then Contador announced he would ride the Giro and that idea could be tossed into the trash.

 

[Kwibus]

Nibali does have something to prove. We still don't know if he can he beat the best GT riders at their best. I think he can't.

By the way, I think Nibali was initially looking for another easy win, ie win the Giro at 80% and then ride the Tour, since he has only a very small chance to repeat anyway. But then Contador announced he would ride the Giro and that idea could be tossed into the trash.

I don't think Nibali can match Froome and Contador in a battle on mountains and TT's, but Nibali can offer more than that as he showed this year during the cobbled stage.
Nibali was really strong this year and I really don't think it would've been easy for Froome/Contador to take back all the time lost on him.

I'm just stating my opinion here. Before people start to rage again....

 

[Red Rick]

I never claimed Nibali was afraid, I just said it was not as ridiculous as it may sound. It is more realism than anything else really, but I do think the two early MTF's in the Giro and Contador riding may have affected his decision, which may be interpreted by some people as fear. He chose the safe option, which is what everyone else usually does, except for Contador. Nibali is actually a rider who often makes high risk decisions.

I do think Nibali was very frustrated with all the "what if" questions during and after the Tour

 

[nhowson]

I don't think Nibali can match Froome and Contador in a battle on mountains and TT's, but Nibali can offer more than that as he showed this year during the cobbled stage.
Nibali was really strong this year and I really don't think it would've been easy for Froome/Contador to take back all the time lost on him.

I'm just stating my opinion here. Before people start to rage again....

Well he can beat Contador in a cobble stage definitely. I doubt Froome would be as good as Nibali on them, but he never got to the cobbles this year, and next year the cobbles are easier. Contador will take time in Huy in my opinion, but hopefully with the cobbles Nibali gets a head start going into the mountains to create something really special.

 

[Carols]

IMO Stage 5 of the Tour this year was totally Epic!!! And Nibali rode like he was made for cobbles. We always knew he could handle tough weather but he'd never ridden cobbles before. It was a stage I will remember for the rest of my life, cycling at it's best .

The idea that Nibali is afraid of Contador or Froome or Quintana is false IMO. He lines up against them and sometimes wins, sometimes loses. He is not the rider of 2011; he has progressed. Do I think he can take an on form Contador; no I don't. But he certainly isn't afraid to give it a go when the race fits into his program. He will have a chance to try the Double when it suits his program better. As the defending Tour champ I'm sure his team wants him totally focused on the Tour.

The idea that Contador will ride the Giro to have an excuse should he lose the Tour is just as false IMO. The man has never declined a challenge in his life and he will ride his guts out, win or lose.

If we the fans were to give both riders their due respect as the champions they have proven themselves to be there would be much less angst and provocation on this forum. Why not give it a try?

 

[cineteq]

IMO Stage 5 of the Tour this year was totally Epic!!! And Nibali rode like he was made for cobbles. We always knew he could handle tough weather but he'd never ridden cobbles before. It was a stage I will remember for the rest of my life, cycling at it's best .

The idea that Nibali is afraid of Contador or Froome or Quintana is false IMO. He lines up against them and sometimes wins, sometimes loses. He is not the rider of 2011; he has progressed. Do I think he can take an on form Contador; no I don't. But he certainly isn't afraid to give it a go when the race fits into his program. He will have a chance to try the Double when it suits his program better. As the defending Tour champ I'm sure his team wants him totally focused on the Tour.

The idea that Contador will ride the Giro to have an excuse should he lose the Tour is just as false IMO. The man has never declined a challenge in his life and he will ride his guts out, win or lose.

Why can't Contador fanboys/girls be all like you? Agree with you 100% except the bolded

Nibali does have something to prove. We still don't know if he can he beat the best GT riders at their best. I think he can't.

Other riders are the ones who need to prove they can stay in the race and not crash out.

I never claimed Nibali was afraid, I just said it was not as ridiculous as it may sound. It is more realism than anything else really, but I do think the two early MTF's in the Giro and Contador riding may have affected his decision, which may be interpreted by some people as fear. He chose the safe option, which is what everyone else usually does, except for Contador. Nibali is actually a rider who often makes high risk decisions.

Why do you have to make things up? 1. Nibali has let the door open to race the Giro 2. Aru has been named the team leader to ride the Giro. Nibali does not want to be a helper.

I disagree with Nibali taking on the Giro. He must defend his Tour victory and that's it. I don't think he can win the double, and he does try, it will affect him negatively in the Tour.

 

[Carols]

Why do Contador fanboys/girls can't be all like you? Agree with you 100% except the bolded

Because I am 64 and have just about seen it all, learning patience and respect along the way. That doesn't mean I'm not passionate, just most times willing to pause and reflect before replying.

Plus I Love Cycling the sport. I've seen great riders come and go and while I have my favorites I know there will always be another that will take my breath away coming along .

Nibali can win a classic, even a monument; it will happen sooner or later. Something Contador seems unwilling to spend the time and effort to focus on. Nibali is a rider of tremendous quality, just not quite at the class level of Contador that is why I believe Contador will place above him in the GTs they race together. Contador is better in the mountains, the ITT, has the tactical nous to take advantage of any weakness and has a strength in the mind that is remarkable. But Nibali and his 2 mins on the cobbles would have stretched him to his absolute max. It would have been a battle royale! Next year there are cobbles and Alberto will have ridden the Giro. Nibali will have his chance!

 

[Red Rick]

Why do you have to make things up? 1. Nibali has let the door open to race the Giro 2. Aru has been named the team leader to ride the Giro. Nibali does not want to be a helper.

I'm speculating, not making things up, hence the word "may"

 

[cineteq]

I'm speculating, not making things up, hence the word "may"

You can speculate when there is NOT enough information. You knew that, yet you chose to say it so it sounded like speculation.

 

[LaFlorecita]

IMO Stage 5 of the Tour this year was totally Epic!!! And Nibali rode like he was made for cobbles. We always knew he could handle tough weather but he'd never ridden cobbles before. It was a stage I will remember for the rest of my life, cycling at it's best .

The idea that Nibali is afraid of Contador or Froome or Quintana is false IMO. He lines up against them and sometimes wins, sometimes loses. He is not the rider of 2011; he has progressed. Do I think he can take an on form Contador; no I don't. But he certainly isn't afraid to give it a go when the race fits into his program. He will have a chance to try the Double when it suits his program better. As the defending Tour champ I'm sure his team wants him totally focused on the Tour.

The idea that Contador will ride the Giro to have an excuse should he lose the Tour is just as false IMO. The man has never declined a challenge in his life and he will ride his guts out, win or lose.

If we the fans were to give both riders their due respect as the champions they have proven themselves to be there would be much less angst and provocation on this forum. Why not give it a try?

Why can't all Nibali fans be like you and pigoonse?

 

[Red Rick]

You can speculate when there is NOT enough information. You knew that, yet you chose to say it so it sounded like speculation.

You don't know the exact reasons, only the reasons in the statement. Maybe they're not the same

 

[Kwibus]

IMO Stage 5 of the Tour this year was totally Epic!!! And Nibali rode like he was made for cobbles. We always knew he could handle tough weather but he'd never ridden cobbles before. It was a stage I will remember for the rest of my life, cycling at it's best .

The idea that Nibali is afraid of Contador or Froome or Quintana is false IMO. He lines up against them and sometimes wins, sometimes loses. He is not the rider of 2011; he has progressed. Do I think he can take an on form Contador; no I don't. But he certainly isn't afraid to give it a go when the race fits into his program. He will have a chance to try the Double when it suits his program better. As the defending Tour champ I'm sure his team wants him totally focused on the Tour.

The idea that Contador will ride the Giro to have an excuse should he lose the Tour is just as false IMO. The man has never declined a challenge in his life and he will ride his guts out, win or lose.

If we the fans were to give both riders their due respect as the champions they have proven themselves to be there would be much less angst and provocation on this forum. Why not give it a try?

Well said and I agree on everything 100%.