Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

[SeriousSam mode]

Most Giro wins since Hinault!

As an aspiring historian of the sport, I object to the attribution of such an incorrect view to me. Contador won a second Giro last year.

No one won more Giri than Nibali since Hinault then.

If someone where to win the Tour 5 times, you'd also say they won it the most times ever (together with others), not the most times since Indurain.

 

[jsem94]

Re: Re:

[SeriousSam mode]

Most Giro wins since Hinault!

As an aspiring historian of the sport, I object to the attribution of such an incorrect view to me. Contador won a second Giro last year.

One might even be tempted to say it was his third. But yeah...

 

[Fergoose]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

A clearly sub par Nibali, whose team was so concerned about his health they issued tests and were entertaining thoughts about pulling him out, managed to maintain his morale enough in the first two weeks to remain in contention despite a mechanical on the MTT. That was admirable as a weaker willed rider may have mentally given up. Also admirable was his ability to capitalise on the failings of others in the last week whilst still clearly not being in top form (getting caught by Uran and Valverde on the final climb). There is nothing fortunate about winning a GT when you have health and mechanical issues.

We'll never know what a fit Nibali might have done in this Giro. I'd have still made a fit Nibali favourite even if SK hadn't crashed. I could be wrong on that, but only if SK goes on to win a Giro or Vuelta or podium a TdF. I certainly appreciate victory like this over one where a rider is somehow 5-10mins faster overall than the sports top athletes.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

He just said he had 'intestinal issues' during the race. That was kept well hidden as it should be!

Intestinal issues? Basically, over the last three days he s**t all over the competition.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

If he does ride the Tour in a GC leader capacity, it will be interesting to see whether he can muster a competitive level, given that Contador failed to do that.

Its not unreasonable to think he would do better than Contador in 2015 at all considering Contador seemed to be at his best at the Giro in '11 and '15, while Nibali only just reached his peak in the end of the race.

I love me some Italian drama. I think it's always been the plan to ride the Tour, but Aru won't be happy after this win.

 

[happytramp]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

We'll never know what a fit Nibali might have done in this Giro.

I'm glad. Without the issues and drama this could have been a very boring Giro. Especially once Landa dropped out.

 

[arvc40]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Missed last 4 stages but just seen the News. How many Tours is Nibali going to win on luck !. Jamy sod.

Great rider but once again wins by being physically inferior and helped by the best rider wiping himself out.

Probably won't bother to watch.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Missed last 4 stages but just seen the News. How many Tours is Nibali going to win on luck !. Jamy sod.

Great rider but once again wins by being physically inferior and helped by the best rider wiping himself out.

Probably won't bother to watch.

No need to watch. The last few stages were very boring.

 

[huge]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

How does it count for luck the fact that Nibali was sick with dysentery the night before the MTT?

My bad... that doesn't count. It counts only if other riders are sick or crash

A race is a race. Illness, crashes, mistakes, it all counts. It's not luck, it's bike racing over 3 weeks!
Keeping on saying that Nibali is a multiple GT winner only by luck is simply idiotic.

 

[happytramp]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Missed last 4 stages but just seen the News. How many Tours is Nibali going to win on luck !. Jamy sod.

Great rider but once again wins by being physically inferior and helped by the best rider wiping himself out.

Probably won't bother to watch.

Think you were misinformed. Nibali cracked SK on the descent.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Missed last 4 stages but just seen the News. How many Tours is Nibali going to win on luck !. Jamy sod.

Great rider but once again wins by being physically inferior and helped by the best rider wiping himself out.

Probably won't bother to watch.

No need to watch. The last few stages were very boring.

You made me spill my coffee , shame on you

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

How does it count for luck the fact that Nibali was sick with dysentery the night before the MTT?

My bad... that doesn't count. It counts only if other riders are sick or crash

A race is a race. Illness, crashes, mistakes, it all counts. It's not luck, it's bike racing over 3 weeks!
Keeping on saying that Nibali is a multiple GT winner only by luck is simply idiotic.

Let's say that instead of losing 2 minutes, he would have finished only 30 seconds behind SK without his problems the night before. That would still have left him 3:13 behind SK before his crash.

 

[matusow_m]

Lerking this forum for a while thought Id share my opinion.

Nibali is a great and most of all fun rider to watch however its pretty clear hes not along with the strongest GT riders however hes very smart and good to avoid accidents thats his strenght. However the fact that Nibali depend on his main rivals always needs to have missfortune for him to win should explain that Nibali isnt any Contador.

For instance I see some fan boys say Nibali cracked SK on the descent and that just sums up your naivety, you might aswell say Chaves cracked him downhill aswell. The trueth is that SK himself made a mistake and failed and noone forced it saying so is just desperation on the best. Also the fact that Froome and Contador crashed in Tour 14 was that also beacuse Nibali made em ? And the fact that Landa withdrew beacuse of he got sick your also creditting Nibali for that aswell?...All these reasons should explain to you guys that Nibali is dependant on his stronger rivals to have missfortune to beat theme cause his not among the strongest, that even guys like SK is on that list aswell doesnt bold well for Nibali that guys like Quintana and Contador is one thing but SK had never even had a podium.

However its also true that its a 3 week race and it counts to be able to finishing it and mistakes and missfortunes happens in all this Nibali usually tends to to avoid which is one of his strenghts which people shouldnt underpriciate its just that his dependant on his stronger rivals to have missfortune to be able to win mainly against Contador,Froome and Quintana not everyone can be the strongest someone have a other attributes thats all it is folks so all take a chill pill and relax and try to see it for what it is.

 

[hrotha]

Nibali and Chaves didn't make Kruijswijk crash on the descent, no. However, they created a situation that maximized the chances of it happening: they were going relatively fast on a technical descent right after a hard climb where everybody was half dead. That's exactly the kind of situation where people make mistakes.

 

[saunaking]

nibz makes his opponents crash by pressuring them
Sk even said he was on his limit following nibz over the summit. yest he was so worried about nibz despite 4+ min lead at the time
Even his tour win he put pressure on others, comes out of cobbles with 2+ mins while contador prolly thought he'd be within 30sexonds at thT POINT

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

On the subject of "Nibali was lucky to win the Giro"

Kruijswijk said:
“But staying on your bike is also cycling and that’s what I lacked yesterday”

It's undeniable that Nibali was lucky to win this Giro, just as he was lucky his main rivals crashed out of the Tour he won, though he was beaten by Wiggins at the Tour and a 42 year-old Horner at the Vuelta, so I guess Fortune really is blind. And who was it that Enzo beat at the Vuelta? Ezequiel Mosquera Miguez Gómez. The guy was subsequently disqualified for doping, but dropped Nibs on Bola del Mundo. Not a stellar cyclist at least on my radar. And who was his biggest threat at the last Giro he won? Ciccio Uran...

He races with a big heart and has enough talent to capitalize on other's misfortunes, but if there is a rider who's been graced by good fortune it is certainly him. Thus as Wouter said above, he is the most overachieving cyclist of his generation in GTs.

Coincidentally... Nibali is always in the right place at the right time to grab the opportunity. The number of times it happened starts to be relevant
It takes more than luck
You can't capitalize on other's misfortunes if you're hidden in the peloton,cannot descend or without having a great cycling IQ (reading the race)

Drawing the line between what he deserves and what he does not is a futile attempt (unless he did something bad to undermine the competition which he didn't). Overachievers are those who,first and foremost,have achieved something.Being an overachiever is a merit not a concession. Being "the fittest that survives" is a merit itself,the only difference is that slighlty different abilities are required

I think most of your critique can be reduced to: "the best climber must win,otherwise It's not a legit win" which openly contrasts with the spirit of the race
It seems like everything that deviates from the norm must not be taken seriously. Why not award the prize to the "supposed" best climber before the race even starts?
That's why riders like nibali keeps competing. Because they feel they can bring many things to the table and challenge what's perceived to be more powerful. We're talking about pure power though. RAces don't happen in empty space where everything is predictable

Well if one wants to be objective (and that's what I was being), when the top contender/s in the race crash out (or seriously compromise their performance with a crash) that has much more to do with "bad luck" than his physical superiority.True races aren't always won on a show of strength, however, when a crash compromises the main competion (at a point in which he's almost 5 min. ahead) then the "luck" factor takes on a more serious value. When this has happened more than once, then it is even more noteworthy. I was thinking in terms of where Nibili falls in the classification of the other top GC contenders. Just because some have widely inflated his status, in my opinion.

On that score Nibali's GT wins were objectively against relatively weak competition, or else a process of eliminating the really strong competition due to crashes.

Considering what others have said above, SK should have allowed himself to get droped on the descent. He may have either gotten back on, or else contained his losses significantly and very probably saved his Giro title. His fall, in this sense, was a tactical blunder that lost him the race.

PS. Having said that, I would not be surprised if he rides the Tour in 2014 shape. He came strong only at the end of the Giro. His mind and nerves have been liberated. There's no pressure on him (or at least not as if the Tour were the main season goal). Everything else is a bonus. A rider like Nibili might surprise in France, which would be great to see finally (and hopefully) how he would fair against a top Contador, Froome and Quintana. Aru, though, will be very uncomfortable now.

 

[glassmoon]

bad weather - no problem
technical descent - no problem
altitude - no problem
4 mins. down - no problem
cobblestones - no problem
Vino as Boss - no problem
- true champione

 

[huge]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

How does it count for luck the fact that Nibali was sick with dysentery the night before the MTT?

My bad... that doesn't count. It counts only if other riders are sick or crash

A race is a race. Illness, crashes, mistakes, it all counts. It's not luck, it's bike racing over 3 weeks!
Keeping on saying that Nibali is a multiple GT winner only by luck is simply idiotic.

Let's say that instead of losing 2 minutes, he would have finished only 30 seconds behind SK without his problems the night before. That would still have left him 3:13 behind SK before his crash.

You missed my point.

It doesn't matter. It's all part of bike racing. All these speculations on what coulda, woulda... are pointless.

Nibali was sick? Bad for him. He paid for that. It doesn't mean that SK was lucky though.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

bad weather - no problem
technical descent - no problem
altitude - no problem
4 mins. down - no problem
cobblestones - no problem
Vino as Boss - no problem
- true champione

Hanging on to the legendary climbers Kruijswijk and Chaves uphill and not losing 4 minutes - problem.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

There's no pressure on him (or at least not as if the Tour were the main season goal). Everything else is a bonus. A rider like Nibili might surprise in France, which would be great to see finally (and hopefully) how he would fair against a top Contador, Froome and Quintana. Aru, though, will be very uncomfortable now.

I agree with your points, except with the PS. There is pressure on him not be be bludgeoned (again) by the big boys. He got dominated in '12, whacked in '15, I think that his legacy will be lessened if he gets spanked again. I don't think that he can repeat his '14 Ninja attacks week one. Back then, he wasn't taken very seriously: after the Dauphine, it was going to be a Froome-Contador showdown, with the rest far behind. This time, it's different. He has gained stature. He'll be taken seriously. There's no cobble stage. The course is more straight forward.

I don't think he has anything to gain by riding the TdF, except making sure that Aru doesn't win it. And Aru won't win it. Heck, I have a bet that Pinot will beat Aru, a bottle of Porto that I will enjoy with a cold fresh, ripe melon. Yummy!

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

There's no pressure on him (or at least not as if the Tour were the main season goal). Everything else is a bonus. A rider like Nibili might surprise in France, which would be great to see finally (and hopefully) how he would fair against a top Contador, Froome and Quintana. Aru, though, will be very uncomfortable now.

I agree with your points, except with the PS. There is pressure on him not be be bludgeoned (again) by the big boys. He got dominated in '12, whacked in '15, I think that his legacy will be lessened if he gets spanked again. I don't think that he can repeat his '14 Ninja attacks week one. Back then, he wasn't taken very seriously: after the Dauphine, it was going to be a Froome-Contador showdown, with the rest far behind. This time, it's different. He has gained stature. He'll be taken seriously. There's no cobble stage. The course is more straight forward.

I don't think he has anything to gain by riding the TdF, except making sure that Aru doesn't win it. And Aru won't win it. Heck, I have a bet that Pinot will beat Aru, a bottle of Porto that I will enjoy with a cold fresh, ripe melon. Yummy!

Wait a minute, '12 he was defeteated by an army of newly created sky bots led by the best stage racer of that particular year, in '15 he was whacked by two of the big boys while he whacked the fourth. He'll ride Le Tour to prepare for Rio and troll the other three and while at it, Aru also. He will never say he's there to win it but I expect at least an attack from no less than 20k to go and a stage win. No problem with his legacy.

 

[Carols]

The picture is coming together. Reverted to proper crank length for last 3 stages, had dysentery the night before the MTT. A healthy and correctly equipped Nibali would never have been in the big hole and we would have missed the pyrotechnics of the great comeback. And Nibali wouldn't have been so down for 2 weeks! But what a glorious return we witnessed, one that will be remembered in the annals of cycling!

 

[samhocking]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

The great thing with Nibali, is he's consistent. You know he'll win if the two other riders above him in GC have misfortune lol. I'll give him the 2010 Vuelta though. At least in that GT, Xacobeo–Galicia leaders were caught with fingers in the cookie jar, yet he still beat them fair and square lol!

 

[Tonton]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Wait a minute, '12 he was defeteated by an army of newly created sky bots led by the best stage racer of that particular year, in '15 he was whacked by two of the big boys while he whacked the fourth. He'll ride Le Tour to prepare for Rio and troll the other three and while at it, Aru also. He will never say he's there to win it but I expect at least an attack from no less than 20k to go and a stage win. No problem with his legacy.

I see your point, but disagree big time. If I'm a three GT winner, unless I'm very prepared, I don't go to France in July. I'm gonna get my *** handed to me. And I'll look stupid. Legacy.

 

[Carols]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Wait a minute, '12 he was defeteated by an army of newly created sky bots led by the best stage racer of that particular year, in '15 he was whacked by two of the big boys while he whacked the fourth. He'll ride Le Tour to prepare for Rio and troll the other three and while at it, Aru also. He will never say he's there to win it but I expect at least an attack from no less than 20k to go and a stage win. No problem with his legacy.

I see your point, but disagree big time. If I'm a three GT winner, unless I'm very prepared, I don't go to France in July. I'm gonna get my *** handed to me. And I'll look stupid. Legacy.

4 time GT winner...