Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[DanielSong39]

In the 2014 Tour, Froome and Contador crashed out trying to keep up with Nibali while Porte and Valverde cracked. Nibali eventually won by more than 7 minutes.

There isn't much more to say.

Hope to see Nibali in the Vuelta and possibly some 1-day classics and the World Championship road race.

 

[kingjr]

@DanielSong39, Froome crashed in the neutral zone because someone fell in front of him. That's the crash that messed up his wrists.

 

[SeriousSam]

Assuming Froome would've lost 2 minutes in the cobbled stage but would have time trialled like Tony Martin, these stages would've cancelled out and it would have come down to climbing.

Nothing Nibali has done before and after 2014 indicates he'd outclimb peak Froome but in that Tour, he just dominated everyone else at will which does make you wonder.

The case that Nibali would have beaten Contador is much stronger I think.

 

[DanielSong39]

Re:

@DanielSong39, Froome crashed in the neutral zone because someone fell in front of him. That's the crash that messed up his wrists.

Froome had a heavy crash in the Dauphine which he may not have fully recovered from and crashed at the start of Stage 4 in the 2014 Tour the France (the one that you mentioned). He just wasn't getting the breaks that year - hey, it happens.

Nibali did get the breaks and performed like a champion.

 

[bambino]

Re:

Who cares.
The big if was Froome getting out of the wet cobbles alive. That was the huge ask.

This. Porte and Thomas would've lost way more than 2 min in cobbles if Froome would've been there to be escorted.

 

[SeriousSam]

We've since seen that Froome is excellent in hills, cobbles, descents etc, a complete rider, more so than any big GC rider except Nibali. That he would have lost as much time as Little Richie is really the worst case scenario.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

We've since seen that Froome is excellent in hills, cobbles, descents etc, a complete rider, more so than any big GC rider except Nibali. That he would have lost as much time as Little Richie is really the worst case scenario.

It is just lately that Froome found those marginal improvements which transformed him from an egg beater 1000 rpm power meter gazing uphill sprinter to a more complete GT rider. He fell two times before they even reached the cobbles in 2014, his bike handling skills were rather poor during that time, big chances that he would have lost a fair amount of time or even eliminate himself from the race.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

We've since seen that Froome is excellent in hills, cobbles, descents etc, a complete rider, more so than any big GC rider except Nibali. That he would have lost as much time as Little Richie is really the worst case scenario.

They analysed Froome's descending position at a University and the conclusion was that his position was crap and not aero at all. Only reason he got away was because everyone was looking at each other. Sagan/Nibali/etc. position was the best.

 

[dusty red roads]

Dry cobbles are different to wet ones.

 

[dastott]

Found a new respect for Nibali in this Giro. To be so close to Quintana and light up the race continually in the last week. Grande!

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

We've since seen that Froome is excellent in hills, cobbles, descents etc, a complete rider, more so than any big GC rider except Nibali. That he would have lost as much time as Little Richie is really the worst case scenario.

They analysed Froome's descending position at a University and the conclusion was that his position was crap and not aero at all. Only reason he got away was because everyone was looking at each other. Sagan/Nibali/etc. position was the best.

Sharp racing instincts and courage, as I said, the most complete big GC rider not named Nibali

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

We've since seen that Froome is excellent in hills, cobbles, descents etc, a complete rider, more so than any big GC rider except Nibali. That he would have lost as much time as Little Richie is really the worst case scenario.

They analysed Froome's descending position at a University and the conclusion was that his position was crap and not aero at all. Only reason he got away was because everyone was looking at each other. Sagan/Nibali/etc. position was the best.

Sharp racing instincts and courage, as I said, the most complete big GC rider not named Nibali

We all see that on formigal :razz:
But yes, I think he is way more complete than 5 years ago

 

[Rollthedice]

Did some calculations which confirmed Vincenzo was the strongest rider in the third week, unfortunately he didn't manage to defend too well on Blockhaus and Oropa which eventually cost him the Giro. Third week time gaps, taking in consideration only stages after the last rest day, top 5:

1. Nibali
2. Zakarin at 32"
3. Quintana at 50"
4. Pinot at 56"
5. Dumoulin at 3'00''

 

[Jspear]

Re:

Did some calculations which confirmed Vincenzo was the strongest rider in the third week, unfortunately he didn't manage to defend too well on Blockhaus and Oropa which eventually cost him the Giro. Third week time gaps, taking in consideration only stages after the last rest day, top 5:

1. Nibali
2. Zakarin at 32"
3. Quintana at 50"
4. Pinot at 56"
5. Dumoulin at 3'00''

I wonder if this was his new best because he's getting older or did he mess up his peak form?....He does so poorly through the year (besides his target) these days, that I feel he could have done better had he come with a little more form in week one. Surely he can come closer to peak and still do great in week 3. It's not like he's spilling his guts through the rest of the year.

 

[Climbing]

Re:

Did some calculations which confirmed Vincenzo was the strongest rider in the third week, unfortunately he didn't manage to defend too well on Blockhaus and Oropa which eventually cost him the Giro. Third week time gaps, taking in consideration only stages after the last rest day, top 5:

1. Nibali
2. Zakarin at 32"
3. Quintana at 50"
4. Pinot at 56"
5. Dumoulin at 3'00''

A slightly little more courage from Quintana and it would have been between him and Vincenzo.
Both were scared to blow up and get countered by the other, and of course everybody was very tired.
As I said in the Bormio stage they should have buried Tom BM when they had the chance...

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

It only confirms Nibali would only be able to take 1 minute without poopgate. Which is never enough given the advantage Dumoulin had in tt.

 

[Mr.White]

Found a new respect for Nibali in this Giro. To be so close to Quintana and light up the race continually in the last week. Grande!

Yeah, he never did something like that before He had much better showings than this

 

[Climbing]

Re:

It only confirms Nibali would only be able to take 1 minute without poopgate. Which is never enough given the advantage Dumoulin had in tt.

Tom BM was the deserving winner, but there is no such thing as "poopgate", otherwise the peloton should stop for riders with bronchitis and the like? Their mistake not burying him immediately right there.

Plus this Giro was tailor made for Dumoulin with 70 km tt and monoclimb stages; ok the idea was to bring Froome to the Giro, but he couldn't care less.

Nonetheless honor to Dumoulin that didn't lose his nerve and was able to limit his losses when in trouble, multiple times.

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

It only confirms Nibali would only be able to take 1 minute without poopgate. Which is never enough given the advantage Dumoulin had in tt.

Tom BM was the deserving winner, but there is no such thing as "poopgate", otherwise the peloton should stop for riders with bronchitis and the like? Their mistake not burying him immediately right there.

Plus this Giro was tailor made for Dumoulin with 70 km tt and monoclimb stages; ok the idea was to bring Froome to the Giro, but he couldn't care less.

Nonetheless honor to Dumoulin that didn't lose his nerve and was able to limit his losses when in trouble, multiple times.

Quintana's won in 2014 with no less than 70 kms of ITT. In fact, as I have already posted, the amount of ITT kms over the least years has been around 70 kms.

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

It only confirms Nibali would only be able to take 1 minute without poopgate. Which is never enough given the advantage Dumoulin had in tt.

Tom BM was the deserving winner, but there is no such thing as "poopgate", otherwise the peloton should stop for riders with bronchitis and the like? Their mistake not burying him immediately right there.

Plus this Giro was tailor made for Dumoulin with 70 km tt and monoclimb stages; ok the idea was to bring Froome to the Giro, but he couldn't care less.

Nonetheless honor to Dumoulin that didn't lose his nerve and was able to limit his losses when in trouble, multiple times.

Quintana's won in 2014 with no less than 70 kms of ITT. In fact, as I have already posted, the amount of ITT kms over the least years has been around 70 kms.

That was a hilly ITT and the hardest MTT since Ventoux in the 2014 Dauphine, you can't compare that.

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

It only confirms Nibali would only be able to take 1 minute without poopgate. Which is never enough given the advantage Dumoulin had in tt.

Tom BM was the deserving winner, but there is no such thing as "poopgate", otherwise the peloton should stop for riders with bronchitis and the like? Their mistake not burying him immediately right there.

Plus this Giro was tailor made for Dumoulin with 70 km tt and monoclimb stages; ok the idea was to bring Froome to the Giro, but he couldn't care less.

Nonetheless honor to Dumoulin that didn't lose his nerve and was able to limit his losses when in trouble, multiple times.

Quintana's won in 2014 with no less than 70 kms of ITT. In fact, as I have already posted, the amount of ITT kms over the least years has been around 70 kms.

That was a hilly ITT and the hardest MTT since Ventoux in the 2014 Dauphine, you can't compare that.

The first ITT of this year's Giro was also hilly.
Anyway, like I said (and you ignored), over the last years the amount of ITT kms has been around 70 kms.
Claiming this year's Giro was tailormade for a rider like Dumoulin is fallacious.

 

[Red Rick]

It was pretty close to perfect for Dumoulin, in that there weren't all that many climbs where you could lose everything on one climb. He still had to climb exceptionally well, but he dodged a lot of climbs that make it in the Giro in other years. I can't see him winning on any other route in the last few years except 2009 and maaaybe 2013.

 

[Cookster15]

Re:

It was pretty close to perfect for Dumoulin, in that there weren't all that many climbs where you could lose everything on one climb. He still had to climb exceptionally well, but he dodged a lot of climbs that make it in the Giro in other years. I can't see him winning on any other route in the last few years except 2009 and maaaybe 2013.

I think you are selling Dumoulin short. The last few years were not balanced routes. With the two minutes lost in poopgate and how Dumoulin recovered riding solo to limit his losses on Umbrail pass I don't think so. There were plenty of opportunities for climbers and plenty here were predicting he would fail in the 3rd week. Regardless it was a balanced Giro route not the climbers paradise that usually gets served up in recent years. Plus if there was a MTT like 2016 I am quite confident Dumoulin would have put more time into both Quintana and Nibali. Dumoulin lost less time climbing than the climbers did in the TTs and still won despite his "problems" in stage 16. That makes Dumoulin a thoroughly deserving winner and at 26 he should only be stronger in the coming years and can win on courses that have less TT and more or harder MTFs.

 

[Katabatic]

I don't see the parcours being particularly easier than in previous years.

Perhaps the difference is the sheer number of GC riders, which means that Dumoulin can find allies left, right, and center. If it was just him vs Quintana/Nibali, I'm sure the latter two could find more time on him with frequent gaps from attacks while Dumoulin tries to time trial up the mountain.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Did some calculations which confirmed Vincenzo was the strongest rider in the third week, unfortunately he didn't manage to defend too well on Blockhaus and Oropa which eventually cost him the Giro. Third week time gaps, taking in consideration only stages after the last rest day, top 5:

1. Nibali
2. Zakarin at 32"
3. Quintana at 50"
4. Pinot at 56"
5. Dumoulin at 3'00''

A slightly little more courage from Quintana and it would have been between him and Vincenzo.
Both were scared to blow up and get countered by the other, and of course everybody was very tired.
As I said in the Bormio stage they should have buried Tom BM when they had the chance...

This is what you read every time Quintana gets beaten. He should have had more courage. Been reading this for about four years now. He doesn't have the courage. That said, most people today would not risk a podium with a counterattack and losing time. Quintana and Nibali had plenty of opportunities as it was obvious Dumoulin was going to leak time in the third week until the TT. Maybe Dumoulin was calculating but he also was starting to suffer. He also admitted himself that he was tiring in the mountains. One early attack may have been enough for Quintana to crack Dumoulin and possibly cost him a podium but no team was willing to try. Even Katusha did more on the final mountain stage than Movistar. And then you have Dumoulin's stomach issues and the split on the descent when he was daydreaming which cost him about three minutes altogether. If anything Dumoulin should have won by more.