Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Ivan_Basso_77]

Re: Re:

Its kind of funny that Nibali probably will end of with quite a better palmarés and career than Contador - Contador was certainly the more talented rider, although he obviously lacks something in the one racing apartment, but Nibali is the kind of rider who just maximises what he gets out of his talent. Incredible.

I think although there is a certain area of overlap in their palmares there are too many differences to objectively compare the two. Like comparing Gilbert with Boonen.

Edit: I see staubsauger just made that comparison a few posts above mine

Yeah, you are right about that, but just looking at the big wins and the versatility of those, Nibali outclasses Contador and Valverde for that matter, IMO. But if you ask who are the better rider of those 3, just to casual cycling fans, Im sure most people will say Contador. But those 3 riders are extremely close, I rate Valverde and Contador as equally 'talented', but with a lesser palmarés than Nibz as this point. But to me, I think they are equally good and I have a hard time separating them.

I fully agree that they are really close. All three of them are great in their own way. We should feel happy to watch their incredible performances.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Attacking spirit and tactical insight, the ability to find the right moment to attack and then pull the maximum out of it, is also a part of "talent". It's not just about laboratory numbers.

Nibali has now won the three biggest Italian races and the Tour. Only five riders have won all of those: Bartali, Coppi, Gimondi, Merckx, and now Nibali.

Bartali:
2x Tour
3x Giro
4x MS
3x Lombardia

Coppi:
2x Tour
5x Giro
3x MS
5x Lombardia

Gimondi:
1x Tour
3x Giro
1x MS
2x Lombardia

Merckx:
5x Tour
5x Giro
7x MS
2x Lombardia

Nibali:
1x Tour
2x Giro
1x MS
2x Lombardia

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Nibali's palmares is starting to look increasingly like an anachronism

 

[huge]

Merckx was just a joke.
Ok, different era and he was the best, but 7 MSR?? FFS!!
Not mentioning al the rest, obviously.

 

[huge]

Re:

Nibali's palmares is starting to look increasingly like an anachronism

There is one thing missing there, and he'll never have it back... Rio 2016
Perfectly planned, perfectly executed until that small, little, tiny detail on the descent...

Probably at the end of his career, that will be one of the greatest regrets.

 

[rick james]

Best allrounder in cycling and the only current rider that can win basically every race he targets.
With this win he has elevated himself above all other riders of his generation.

That's lies

 

[huge]

That's lies

You are right... he hadn't targeted MSR, and still he managed to win it :razz:

 

[Carols]

We hit the 5 embedded quotes limit.

Eli wrote:

I think you are being quite harsh on valverde Here. A man with His palmares should rightly be seen as a Legend in most people's book.

We can take it to the Valverde thread. I Totally Respect and Love Bala, but Legend territory is Very Rare IMO.

Nibs is in the company of only Gimondi, Merckx and Hinault with all 3 GTs and 2 different Monuments. That is Rare Air and I still haven't accorded him Legend status.

But then I've seen 5+ decades of great riders come and go......

 

[rick james]

That's lies

You are right... he hadn't targeted MSR, and still he managed to win it :razz:

targeted 2 races last year and failed

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Its kind of funny that Nibali probably will end of with quite a better palmarés and career than Contador - Contador was certainly the more talented rider, although he obviously lacks something in the one racing apartment, but Nibali is the kind of rider who just maximises what he gets out of his talent. Incredible.

I think although there is a certain area of overlap in their palmares there are too many differences to objectively compare the two. Like comparing Gilbert with Boonen.

Edit: I see staubsauger just made that comparison a few posts above mine

Yeah, you are right about that, but just looking at the big wins and the versatility of those, Nibali outclasses Contador and Valverde for that matter, IMO. But if you ask who are the better rider of those 3, just to casual cycling fans, Im sure most people will say Contador. But those 3 riders are extremely close, I rate Valverde and Contador as equally 'talented', but with a lesser palmarés than Nibz as this point. But to me, I think they are equally good and I have a hard time separating them.

With nine Grand Tours Contador still has the better palmares.

Of course it depends on how you look at the clinic issues. If Froome gets banned that will give Nibali an extra GT win and then he probably beats the 7 GT wins of Contador that weren't scrapped.

They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Contador sucked at one-day races.
Nibali isn't nearly as consistent throughout a season as Contador and Valverde.
Valverde's peak level is not as high as Contador and Nibali on their best.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

Nibali's palmares is starting to look increasingly like an anachronism

There is one thing missing there, and he'll never have it back... Rio 2016
Perfectly planned, perfectly executed until that small, little, tiny detail on the descent...

Probably at the end of his career, that will be one of the greatest regrets.

It ain't over till it's over. He is already thinking about Tokyo.

 

[skippo12]

That's lies

You are right... he hadn't targeted MSR, and still he managed to win it :razz:

targeted 2 races last year and failed

He can win them but it doesn`t mean that he will win them all.
He finished the Giro 3rd 40s behind TomD and the Vuelta 2nd behind Froome who might be stripped of the win.
Won stages in both races and won Lombardia to end the season. 3 targets and in the end he could be 40s short of a GT double + monument win.

First rider since Jalabert with a San Remo win/podium and GT win/podium.

 

[El Pistolero]

That's lies

You are right... he hadn't targeted MSR, and still he managed to win it :razz:

targeted 2 races last year and failed

He won the Vuelta and Lombardia.

Not bad for one season...

 

[rick james]

No, what got said was
"he only current rider that can win basically every race he targets"


he target 2 races last year and failed....

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Also saying that he getting weaker in GTs simply does not make any sense.

Giro winner in 2016
3rd at the Giro last year, second at the Vuelta...

If that means getting worse at GT....

Of course he's getting worse at GTs. I mean, it's all relative, he's still one of the top 5 or 6 GT riders in the world, but he hasn't been close to the level he was at during 2013-14 since then - when he was probably the number 1 GT rider in the world.

The results may still look fairly good on paper, but the performanes have declined. And he has much more chance of winning Lombardia or a mountainous worlds than a GT these days imo.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

Nibali's palmares is starting to look increasingly like an anachronism

There is one thing missing there, and he'll never have it back... Rio 2016
Perfectly planned, perfectly executed until that small, little, tiny detail on the descent...

Probably at the end of his career, that will be one of the greatest regrets.

It ain't over till it's over. He is already thinking about Tokyo.

Very true...

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Its kind of funny that Nibali probably will end of with quite a better palmarés and career than Contador - Contador was certainly the more talented rider, although he obviously lacks something in the one racing apartment, but Nibali is the kind of rider who just maximises what he gets out of his talent. Incredible.

I think although there is a certain area of overlap in their palmares there are too many differences to objectively compare the two. Like comparing Gilbert with Boonen.

Edit: I see staubsauger just made that comparison a few posts above mine

Yeah, you are right about that, but just looking at the big wins and the versatility of those, Nibali outclasses Contador and Valverde for that matter, IMO. But if you ask who are the better rider of those 3, just to casual cycling fans, Im sure most people will say Contador. But those 3 riders are extremely close, I rate Valverde and Contador as equally 'talented', but with a lesser palmarés than Nibz as this point. But to me, I think they are equally good and I have a hard time separating them.

Contador and Valverde are indeed superior to Nibs in terms of pure talent. But there's something about Nibali which makes him a bigger champion then those two.

I think Valverde is lacking - if you compare him to Nibs and Contador - one important skill/tool: the capacity to win races when he's not the strongest. Contador was able to turn things around when he was in a vulnerable position, with Fuente De (if you look at his pshyical abilities comparing Purito that Vuelta) and the Tour '09 (the pressure he had to deal with from Armstrong and Bruyneel) as prime examples.

Nibali also won races in the past where - maybe - he wasn't the strongest. Yesterday, he won the race because he had the guts to attack. But if you look at actual shape/power he had left in the final, i think guys like Sagan, GvA, Trentin and Kwiat could have matched him, but they were trapped because of team tactics or because they didn't dare to attack. For me, that's a sign of true greatness. The same could be said of his performances during TA '13 and Lombardia '15; races he won because he accepted to possibility to lose. If you closely look back at how those races evolved, you could make a valid point there were some riders who where stronger form-wise (Froome and Moreno).

I can't recall Valverde winning a race he actually wasn't the strongest/fastest. For me, that's the difference between him and Contador-Nibali. And Nibs wins it for me because he has won a wider scale of races (GT's and monuments) and - what's really unique - totally different monuments.

 

[Carols]

What is obvious after going through the last few pages is that Nibali Still Doesn't Get the Respect he has so thoroughly earned! What a shame

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Nibali's palmares is starting to look increasingly like an anachronism

There is one thing missing there, and he'll never have it back... Rio 2016
Perfectly planned, perfectly executed until that small, little, tiny detail on the descent...

Probably at the end of his career, that will be one of the greatest regrets.

I still get sad thinking about that race. I'm still not over the fact that he didn't win LBL 2012 either, but at least he'll get more chances to win there, but the olympics is a race which takes place once every 4 years and he'll probably never get an olympic route that suits him that well again. The fact how perfectly everything was planned and executed makes it even harder to look at what happened. He basically planned his whole season around this one day, he even threw away a chance to win a tour stage because he didn't want to risk anything on the wet joux plane descent shortly before the olympics, and then everything collapsed in one corner. Tbf it's not that unlikely that he wouldn't even have won gold, that one probably would have gone to henao, but even a silver medal would have been great

 

[Brullnux]

Best allrounder in cycling and the only current rider that can win basically every race he targets.
With this win he has elevated himself above all other riders of his generation.

That's lies

You do realise 'can win' doesn't mean will win?

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

Nibali's palmares is starting to look increasingly like an anachronism

There is one thing missing there, and he'll never have it back... Rio 2016
Perfectly planned, perfectly executed until that small, little, tiny detail on the descent...

Probably at the end of his career, that will be one of the greatest regrets.

I still get sad thinking about that race. I'm still not over the fact that he didn't win LBL 2012 either, but at least he'll get more chances to win there, but the olympics is a race which takes place once every 4 years and he'll probably never get an olympic route that suits him that well again. The fact how perfectly everything was planned and executed makes it even harder to look at what happened. He basically planned his whole season around this one day, he even threw away a chance to win a tour stage because he didn't want to risk anything on the wet joux plane descent shortly before the olympics, and then everything collapsed in one corner. Tbf it's not that unlikely that he wouldn't even have won gold, that one probably would have gone to henao, but even a silver medal would have been great

In Tokyo the route will be good for him, that's what I've heard so there's your last chance and I don't think Henao would've won in Rio, Nibali is a better rouleur and TTer, a couple of seconds at the bottom of the descent would've been enough and given that Henao is also a crappy sprinter after almost 300 Km I would've bet on Nibali. But these things happen, I'm glad that he got over it.

 

[May0maniac]

Bahrain will have a good team for the Ardennes classics and a great one for Amstel.
Colbrelli, Gasparotto, Nibali, Visconti, Ion, Gorka and they also have Mohoric and Navardauskas. Enough firepower to blow the race apart and send someone on the attack while Colbrelli waits in the bunch.
For LBL you can have Delfino and Pozzovivo instead of Colbrelli and another bigger engine, they have what it takes to make the race really hard and to create chaos.

 

[Brullnux]

Yeah, and even if Henao didn't have a gap at the bottom Nibali could've atatcked on the flat and just powered away. Besides, Henao isn't exactly the greatest sprinter in the world when the road is flat.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Re:

What is the deal with this Nibali vs Valverde discussion? Going on in two seperate threads. I must have missed something.

I think Nibali is an overachiever in terms of results (i.e. his palmares doesn't really match his level of talent), Valverde not really because he just has a very strong sprint/last km punch and most of his wins were gathered in that way, so his palmares matches his talent.
I'd definitely rate Nibali's palmares above Valverde's, quality of wins (prestige and way in which a race was won) is much more important than quantity in my eyes. Valverde's consistency is amazing but I can't help but notice many of his 100+ wins were won in smaller races, against mediocre competition, with a move inside the final ~300m. Of course he has a fair share of big wins but it doesn't live up to Nibali's palmares IMO.

Yes, that's probably first time I must say, you're completely right.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Re: Re:

Honestly I don't think that Nibali is getting better at one day races. He is where he has always been.
He had pretty good results in the past... already 3rd at MSR and 2nd at LBL in 2012. Sometimes you need the stars to be correctly aligned.

Also saying that he getting weaker in GTs simply does not make any sense.

Giro winner in 2016
3rd at the Giro last year, second at the Vuelta...

If that means getting worse at GT.... [/quote]

Maybe, but now he is just probably the most likely winner of TdF 2018..