Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Netserk]

Pog three GT wins

Vinge two GT wins

Rogla four GT wins

 

[Peyroteo94]

Rogla four GT wins

2 Tours is better than 3 Vueltas and 1 Giro

 

[Salvarani]

Rogla four GT wins

This is the Vingegaard vs Pog thread. Please stay on topic.

Also, three Vueltas like one Tour.

 

[Froome]

Pog three GT wins

Vinge two GT wins

That argument would be easy to dismantle.

I can also tell that Vingegaard is 2-1 in Grand Tours against Pogacar, but is not about that.

In terms of peak perfomances in Grand Tours, the level by Vingegaard is better than all of the level Pogacar showed since 2019.

Froome and Roglic also have more Grand tours than Pogacar, and it doesn't mean they are better tha Pogacar.

 

[snipeheem]

Tell me one performance by Pogacar until today in Grand Tours since 2020, better than the best perfomances of Vingegaard in Grand Tours.

I'm just asking one.

Foscagno

 

[Netserk]

2 Tours is better than 3 Vueltas and 1 Giro

How much better is 4 Tours, 1 Giro and 2* Vueltas?

 

[Salvarani]

That argument would be easy to dismantle.

I can also tell that Vingegaard is 2-1 in Grand Tours against Pogacar, but is not about that.

In terms of peak perfomances in Grand Tours, the level by Vingegaard is better than all of the level showed.

Froome and Roglic also have more Grand tours than Pogacar, and it doesn't mean they are better tha Pogacar.

You said performances in GTs.

Pog has more wins and more podiums in GTs. Case closed.

 

[Froome]

Foscagno

I already respond to that in the thread of Pogacar and Gianetti in the clinic. The perfomance of Pogacar on Tourmalet last year was superior to is own performance on Foscagno.

 

[Cookster15]

The Time trial of Vingegaard last year is probably the best Time Trial of this century, and way better than the Time Trial of Pogacar in La planche des belles filles.

Combloux ITT will never be repeated by Vingegaard again (I hope).

Stage 8 of the 2021 TdF Pogacar destroyed Vingegaard and everyone else. Can't use Vingo's minor crash as an excuse, he was only 1 minute down on Pog At the top of the Col de Romme, with 28.5km to go. Finished more than three minutes behind at the finish.

 

[Froome]

You said performances in GTs.

Pog has more wins and more podiums in GTs. Case closed.

On that case, Froome and Roglic are better Grand Tour riders than Pogacar. Ok.

 

[Salvarani]

Then Froome and Roglic are better Grand Tour riders than Pogacar. Ok.

Yeah, right now.

However...

1. That wasnt what was being discussed.

2. Pog has time on his side.

The facts are Pog is ahead of Vinge on GT performances.

 

[Netserk]

Stage 8 of the 2021 TdF Pogacar destroyed Vingegaard and everyone else. Can't use Vingo's minor crash as an excuse, he was only 1 minute down on Pog At the top of the Col de Romme, with 28.5km to go. Finished more than three minutes behind at the finish.

Huh? What would have to have been different for that crash to have been a valid excuse?

 

[Cookster15]

Huh? What would have to have been different for that crash to have been a valid excuse?

Simply the fact that crash did not effect his power. If it had Vingegaard would not have been able to do what his did on Ventoux and in the final TT.

Edit: What happened on Stage 8 of that Tour is why I felt Pogacar was untouchable and why I was bemused that somehow Visma found a rider who could surpass him in 2022.

 

[dercuforever]

Yeah, right now.

However...

1. That wasnt what was being discussed.

2. Pog has time on his side.

The facts are Pog is ahead of Vinge on GT performances.

Doesn't mean he's better (meaning favorite).
I hope he is because i'm a fan, but if that means having two people doing Combloux performance on daily basis, well, I'd rather not.

 

[Netserk]

Simply the fact that crash did not effect his power. If it had Vingegaard would not have been able to do what his did on Ventoux and in the final TT.

That makes no sense to me. It'd be like saying that because Pogi was strong again in the Vosges, Loze showed his real level.

 

[Salvarani]

Doesn't mean he's better (meaning favorite).
I hope he is because i'm a fan, but if that means having two people doing Combloux performance on daily basis, well, I'd rather not.

We have to take into what they have done though.

Right now you can hardly say either/or. They are almost equal, but Pog has one more win and more podiums. So by default he has more GT performances. Thats what was asked.

How else are you gonna decide or call it?

As why Froome and Roglic are probably ahead of Pog, just going by their success in GTs. Right now.

But as said, Pog has time on his side on that.

And overall as riders... taking monuments and other wins into account. He already passed them I think? I dont remember the current ranking from the thread that keeps track.

 

[Salvarani]

That makes no sense to me. It'd be like saying that because Pogi was strong again in the Vosges, Loze showed his real level.

You cant judge it by single stage performances. That becomes tedious.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

What I find very notable is that (maybe except for 2022), so far Pogačar seems to have improved year by year from a first close Tour win in 2020 to an amazing year with a demolition in the Alps in 2021, and in 2023 much improved again, being able to actually put Vingegaard under pressure after not being able to touch him the year before while also beating Van der Poel in Flanders. This year, he seems even more untouchable than the years before, has shown he can do it on tough mountain stages and has won the Giro with a historic time gap and souplesse.

 

[Froome]

Simply the fact that crash did not effect his power. If it had Vingegaard would not have been able to do what his did on Ventoux and in the final TT.

Edit: What happened on Stage 8 of that Tour is why I felt Pogacar was untouchable and why I was bemused that somehow Visma found a rider who could surpass him in 2022.

I didn't talk about excuses in the Tour 2021. I already said "2-1 for Vingegaard against Pogacar", so i consider Pogacar beat Vingegaard in 2021 without excuses.

Nevertheless i could also make excuses for Vingegaard like they did with Pogacar due to his wrist last year or for him having a bad day.

Before the Tour 2021, Vingegaard had issues in his tendon in May, 2 months before the Tour, and he couldn't do trainings during some days, he also suffered due to covid during 2021, and he started the race has a domestique of Roglic, and of course, he crashed on that famous stage Romme/colombiere.

Vingegaard seventh in time trial Critérium du Dauphiné

Jonas Vingegaard has finished seventh in the time trial of the Critérium du Dauphiné. On the hilly course, the Dane clocked a time of 21:53, conceding…

www.teamvismaleaseabike.com

You can see here, the issues he had on the tendons in 2021.

But like i said, no excuses, Pogacar won fairly in 2021 and if he beat Vingegaard this year at the Tour, there will be no excuses again...if Vingegaard starts of course.

 

[Cookster15]

I didn't talk about excuses in the Tour 2021. I already said "2-1 for Vingegaard against Pogacar", so i consider Pogacar beat Vingegaard in 2021 without excuses.

Nevertheless i could also make excuses for Vingegaard like they did with Pogacar due to his wrist last year or for him having a bad day.

Before the Tour 2021, Vingegaard had issues in his tendon in May, 2 months before the Tour, and he couldn't do trainings during some days, he also suffered due to covid during 2021, and he started the race has a domestique of Roglic, and of course, he crashed on that famous stage Romme/colombiere.

Vingegaard seventh in time trial Critérium du Dauphiné

Jonas Vingegaard has finished seventh in the time trial of the Critérium du Dauphiné. On the hilly course, the Dane clocked a time of 21:53, conceding…

www.teamvismaleaseabike.com

You can see here, the issues he had on the tendons in 2021.

But like i said, no excuses, Pogacar won fairly in 2021 and if he beat Vingegaard this year at the Tour, there will be no excuses again...if Vingegaard starts of course.

No excuses and yet you post this story about a tendon problem? This "problem" obviously didn't affect him on Ventoux or in the final TT.

You asked for one performance by Pogacar at 100% in Grand Tours, better than the best performances of Vingegaard in Grand Tours. I think I've answered that. Don't move the goalposts.

 

[Peyroteo94]

How much better is 4 Tours, 1 Giro and 2* Vueltas?

Pogacar is 25. Maybe when he is 27, he will have a greater palmares than Froome in GT's.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Interested in seeing how the reaction in UAE/Jumbo plays out here;

Part at 2:53, thought it had gone alright, I think it was a good tt too. Parallels with what he said to Geraint Thomas about the Giro tt being a bit of a confidence boost after some self-doubts.

Just a bizarre day all round, I remember thinking that the live timing must be playing up, expected perhaps 15-20s or so given Pogacar had put good time into everyone else but 1.38, what the hell.

 

[Froome]

No excuses and yet you post this story about a tendon problem? This "problem" obviously didn't efect him on Ventoux or in the final TT.

You asked for one performance by Pogacar at 100% in Grand Tours, better than the best performances of Vingegaard in Grand Tours. I think I've answered that. Don't move the goalposts.

I said it would be easy to do that, and i gave some examples, don't mean i will take them in account from my personal point of view.

I'm glad you answered that, you were talking about romme/colombiere?

 

[Netserk]

This "problem" obviously didn't efect him on Ventoux or in the final TT.

~ This "wrist" obviously didn't affect him in the Vosges.

 

[Netserk]

Interested in seeing how the reaction in UAE/Jumbo plays out here;

Part at 2:53, thought it had gone alright, I think it was a good tt too. Parallels with what he said to Geraint Thomas about the Giro tt being a bit of a confidence boost after some self-doubts.

Just a bizarre day all round, I remember thinking that the live timing must be playing up, expected perhaps 15-20s or so given Pogacar had put good time into everyone else but 1.38, what the hell.

"If you catch him, you will kill him, eh."

"I'm gone, I'm dead."