Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Lorzenz08]

I said, there are one or two climbs where he posted very good W/kg numbers, but given that his absolute power was lower, that's not the whole story. If you really believe that he was at his strongest ever last year, I'm sorry, but it's so obvious he was not. He was hanging by a thread in the final week. And it's also perfectly logical, with just 6 weeks or so of training.

In these one or two climbs he was AT THE BEST HE HAS EVER BEEN. Not just "very good". And even when he had the best W/kg EVER, it still was not enough to catch Pogi.

But without the crashes he would have been even BETTER.

 

[ice&fire]

But at last we will get a taste of what level both riders are at this week.

It will be fun if someone plays a 2014 Nibali

 

[theyoungest]

In these one or two climbs he was AT THE BEST HE HAS EVER BEEN. Not just "very good". And even when he had the best W/kg EVER, it still was not enough to catch Pogi.

It doesnt mean that without the crashes he could have been even BETTER.

Yes, but as I've said multiple times now, these W/kg numbers on one or two climbs don't tell the whole story. He was way more fragile than normal, had lower absolute power, and had worse recovery, which was quite clear toward the end of the race. That is not to say that he is able to beat the very best Pogacar when he is at his very best himself... but he wasn't last year.

 

[fenns]

I said, there are one or two climbs where he posted very good W/kg numbers, but given that his absolute power was lower, that's not the whole story. If you really believe that he was at his strongest ever last year, I'm sorry, but it's so obvious he was not. He was hanging by a thread in the final week. And it's also perfectly logical, with just 6 weeks or so of training.

have we ever found out how many days after his crash Vingegaard did no training?

 

[Froome]

If you want I can send you multiple proof that 2024 Vingegaard was by far the strongest he has ever been and significantly stronger than 2023?

The strongest he has ever been in 1 day of the Tour 2024, is different from the best version he could have been.

 

[Froome]

Nevertheless, i still think Combloux ITT is Vingegaard best performance ever. The gaps always tell the true.

 

[Froome]

Evenepoel did 6.4 w/kg on Plateau de beille, better than the 6.3 w/kg from Vingegaard in 2022 on Hautacam, and Evenepoel didn't had the perfect preparation for the Tour 2024.

Basically, doing your best watts in 2024, doesn't you did your best watts you could have done with perfect preparation. Everybody improved a lot every year.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Nevertheless, i still think Combloux ITT is Vingegaard best performance ever. The gaps always tell the true.

2023
1:38
2:51
2:55
2:58
3:06
3:12
3:20
3:30
3:31

2024
1:43
2:46
3:35
3:48
4:00
4:00
4:33
4:49
5:19

And this performance came after a very hard raced stage and previously a hard mountain stage vs a rest day. Just because Vingegaard didn’t mean, doesn’t mean he was in phenomenal shape that day.

 

[Extinction]

I agree. The argument was that 2024 Vingegaard was weaker than 2023 which is objectively false. I am sure that without a crash he could have been closer to Pogacar.

Or equal, or better. Even this year isn't a perfect run, he hasn't raced since March. I want to see both, with flawless build-ups and then may the best man win.

 

[Heston]

It is quite funny to watch Pogacar fans claim that Pogacar's fractured wrist in 2023 was devastating but Vingegaard's punctured lung in 2024 had no effect on the race.

I would be curious if you can find a single doctor out there who would support Pogacar fanclub's theory that a fractured wrist is more serious than a punctured lung.

 

[Froome]

2023
1:38
2:51
2:55
2:58
3:06
3:12
3:20
3:30
3:31

2024
1:43
2:46
3:35
3:48
4:00
4:00
4:33
4:49
5:19

And this performance came after a very hard raced stage and previously a hard mountain stage vs a rest day. Just because Vingegaard didn’t mean, doesn’t mean he was in phenomenal shape that day.

What are those gaps from 2024?

If is from PDB, i think is not right.

Vingegaard was in a miraculous shape considering what happened, but obviously not the best version he could have been.

 

[AmRacer]

It is quite funny to watch Pogacar fans claim that Pogacar's fractured wrist in 2023 was devastating but Vingegaard's punctured lung in 2024 had no effect on the race.

I would be curious if you can find a single doctor out there who would support Pogacar fanclub's theory that a fractured wrist is more serious than a punctured lung.

Pogi hate club members must also take into consideration when the crashes happened and how many weeks they got at the bike before the Tour. Both Jonas and Remco did their best number ever, Pogi didn't 2023.

 

[Froome]

Pogi hate club members must also take into consideration when the crashes happened and how many weeks they got at the bike before the Tour. Both Jonas and Remco did their best number ever, Pogi didn't 2023.

Actually pogacar did better numbers in Tour 2023 than in Tour 2022.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It is quite funny to watch Pogacar fans claim that Pogacar's fractured wrist in 2023 was devastating but Vingegaard's punctured lung in 2024 had no effect on the race.

I would be curious if you can find a single doctor out there who would support Pogacar fanclub's theory that a fractured wrist is more serious than a punctured lung.

Who said that?
But I already saw your agenda. I hope you are here in a week.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Does anyone think that anyone is ever again going to say anything original about relative degrees of injury in 2023 and 2024?

Or that even if we did have some objective measure to compare them by, it would tell us anything meaningful about the 2025 races yet to come?

Enough already.

Not saying that as a moderator: no threat of sanctions involved. Just saying it as a forum reader who finds it all exceedingly tedious by this point. And pretty sure I am not the only one.

 

[SHAD0W93]

What are those gaps from 2024?

If is from PDB, i think is not right.

Vingegaard was in a miraculous shape considering what happened, but obviously not the best version he could have been.

They are Vingegaard’s gap to the 10 after him on PDB. I checked them all on a time calculator before I posted it.

I didn’t reply to the best version he could have been or have even entered the discussion about it, I replied to your post stating “Combloux ITT is Vingegaard best performance ever. The gaps always tell the true.“

Vingegaard had bigger gaps to the other on PDB. The performance came after a far harder stage and after the previous stage being another hard mountain stage. Vingegaard had the benefit of a rest day to get rest in 2023. The 2024 performance also came after Vingegaard had those terrible injuries and as you stated was on the skinner side. With all of that, 2024 was Vingegaard’s best performance. That doesn’t mean he can’t get better this year without injuries and set a new best, which I think he will improve.

 

[Froome]

They are Vingegaard’s gap to the 10 after him on PDB. I checked them all on a time calculator before I posted it.

I didn’t reply to the best version he could have been or have even entered the discussion about it, I replied to your post stating “Combloux ITT is Vingegaard best performance ever. The gaps always tell the true.“

Vingegaard had bigger gaps to the other on PDB. The performance came after a far harder stage and after the previous stage being another hard mountain stage. Vingegaard had the benefit of a rest day to get rest in 2023. The 2024 performance also came after Vingegaard had those terrible injuries and as you stated was on the skinner side. With all of that, 2024 was Vingegaard’s best performance. That doesn’t mean he can’t get better this year without injuries and set a new best, which I think he will improve.

Don't you think is more impressive doing those gaps on 22 km ITT, compared with a high and long mountain stage?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding all the back and forth, but what I seem to make out of all this is:

1. Pog was amazing at the 2024 TdF
2. Vingo was also amazing at the 2024 TdF relative to everyone else and better than in 2023.
3. The above #2 notwithstanding, Vingo was not at his best as a result of his crash.
4. But-for the crash, Vingo would have been even better than he was and perhaps even better than Pog was.
5. The best support for #4 is the fact that Vingo beat Pog in 2022 and 2023.
6. 2023 is a question mark because Pog had been recovering from a wrist injury.
7. The true test should be this year because both are coming to the Tour uninjured and ready for battle, as we had all hoped.

I think all of that is reasonable.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I think anyone who watched the 2023 Tour should be able to agree that that Vingegaard ITT was shocking. Almost disturbing. He just flat out destroyed Pogacar and everyone else. At the time, people were calling it the best ITT performance in Tour history. No one should be underrating Vingegaard. IMO he’s as good a Tour rider as anyone since 2009 Contador, probably better.

Same could then be said in 2024 about Pogacar’s performance. A disturbing display of force and dominance.

Can’t wait to watch this year.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Don't you think is more impressive doing those gaps on 22 km ITT, compared with a high and long mountain stage?

No from what I listed and we both had different views of Vingegaard before the 2024 Tour. You thought he could win, I thought it was a mistake for him to go and he’d struggle to top 100. Without Pogacar, we would be talking about how Vinge had the best ever TT and climbing performance.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I think anyone who watched the 2023 Tour should be able to agree that that Vingegaard ITT was shocking. Almost disturbing. He just flat out destroyed Pogacar and everyone else. At the time, people were calling it the best ITT performance in Tour history. No one should be underrating Vingegaard. IMO he’s as good a Tour rider as anyone since 2009 Contador, probably better.

Same could then be said in 2024 about Pogacar’s performance. A disturbing display of force and dominance.

Can’t wait to watch this year.

Vingo's 2023 TT was absolutely insane, no question about it. He obliterated the field. I think that's all I can say on this particular thread.

 

[ice&fire]

Does anyone think that anyone is ever again going to say anything original about relative degrees of injury in 2023 and 2024?

Or that even if we did have some objective measure to compare them by, it would tell us anything meaningful about the 2025 races yet to come?

Enough already.

Not saying that as a moderator: no threat of sanctions involved. Just saying it as a forum reader who finds it all exceedingly tedious by this point. And pretty sure I am not the only one.

Everyone will forget (if only temporarily) about 2023 and 2024 as soon as they need to make up the explanations for 2025.

 

[fenns]

Everyone will forget (if only temporarily) about 2023 and 2024 as soon as they need to make up the explanations for 2025.

we've already got 2 which can be produced when necessary

Ving's crash in P-N and Pog overracing in the classics.

 

[YavorD]

we've already got 2 which can be produced when necessary

Ving's crash in P-N and Pog overracing in the classics.

I also think that Visma has the better team and in case Vingegaard wins, it will be the team.

 

[Froome]

I also think that Visma has the better team and in case Vingegaard wins, it will be the team.

I can't see any scenario where Visma can ambush pogacar.

Vingegaard only wins the Tour if will be better than pogacar in the ITT and mountain stages.

Visma work will be basically protect Vingegaard in the flat stages, and make the mountain stages the hardest they can be since km 0.