Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Cookster15]

Would be interesting to compare Pogacar and Vingegaard's relative strengths at say 2023 compared to now.

Yes, I think Pogi is now better in all aspects of grand tour racing that Jonas was perceived to have an advantage in those years he won the Tour. We are at stage 18 and Pogacar was still able to eek out a gap on the hardest climb of the Tour and a mountain he has struggled on in 2020 and 2023. His recovery can't be doubted.

 

[Red Rick]

I guess there would be an element of novelty if both go to the Vuelta.

 

[AmRacer]

I want Pogi wining the Vuelta 2025
Jonas should win Giro and Vuelta 2026
2027 and onwards, neither Jonas or Pogi will race Giro and Vuelta.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So far it's rather one sided beating and they both froze without their respective teams on where the ultimate climb of the queen stage was nearing. They waited and after went and sucked wheel, all the way up the climb.

 

[tigabara]

So, I think, Jumbo Visma's chance of defeating Pogacar is if they have two leaders (leader and co leader). That's the story in 2022 and 2023, plus the injury factor in 2023.

In a mano a mano fight, Vingegaard vs Pogacar, Vingegaard-Visma is powerless against Pogacar- UAE. Yes, with Vingegaard, the main factor is Visma. With Pogacar, the main factor is himself.

 

[memyselfandI]

So, I think, Jumbo Visma's chance of defeating Pogacar is if they have two leaders (leader and co leader). That's the story in 2022 and 2023, plus the injury factor in 2023.

In a mano a mano fight, Vingegaard vs Pogacar, Vingegaard-Visma is powerless against Pogacar- UAE. Yes, with Vingegaard, the main factor is Visma. With Pogacar, the main factor is himself.

I think it's very much of UAE vs VLAB team performance. UAE general performance is sky high above Visma overall at least last year and this year. Visma can't force Tour peloton the way UAE can, at any decided moment. Visma as a team is in passengers seat most of the time. Most of the time. UAE is the main driver, most of the time. Campenaerts was top domestique in this Tour, Jorgenson was 80% of his top form, rest Visma doms were worthless whereas every single man in UAE were level of Campenaerts or higher, that's a fact.

And dunno what it is with Jonas, but he's out of his supposed level so so far out, jeebs..

 

[Rou]

After 2 days this supposed 'rivalry' will be in the bin.
For the past 18 months this has been a one sided beatdown.
The only real rivalry is Pogacar vs MVDP in 2 races.

 

[AmRacer]

After 2 days this supposed 'rivalry' will be in the bin.
For the past 18 months this has been a one sided beatdown.
The only real rivalry is Pogacar vs MVDP in 2 races.

3 races, and a few stages.

 

[Gigs_98]

I find it quite funny that after all the ups and downs over the years we are back at the 2021 race dynamics where Pogacar gains time in the early TT, utterly destroys Vingegaard in the first mountain stages but then cannot actually drop him for the rest of the Tour except by sprinting at the end of climbs. If you forget about the last three years this Tour really seems like a natural progression of 2021.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Kind of like Froome vs Quintana, although at least Quintana dropped him week 3…So less exciting than the Froome years in some ways. Yikes.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It seems that Lipo penetrated this bubble.

 

[SHAD0W93]

It seems that Lipo penetrated this bubble.

A footnote like Carapaz.

 

[Cookster15]

where Pogacar gains time in the early TT, utterly destroys Vingegaard in the first mountain stages but then cannot actually drop him for the rest of the Tour except by sprinting at the end of climbs

I don’t find it surprising. Pogacar had a four minute lead largely by destroying Jonas in the TT but more so by taking two minutes on the Hautacam stage alone. In 2021 he basically won that Tour on stage 8. Last year the eventual 6 minute gap was largely because Jonas faded. I’d put that down to his badly interrupted training from his big April crash and resulting injuries.

 

[iBanesto]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuduaaAUOKQ

 

[Rackham]

Has there ever been a more toxic and miserable duel than this one in 2025?

Just check the headlines in France in the sports papers right now, i.e. everyone is talking about Pog's miserable demeanour and the lack of joy in this race. It's a bad look for the sport.

 

[Miha81]

Has there ever been a more toxic and miserable duel than this one in 2025?

Just check the headlines in France in the sports papers right now, i.e. everyone is talking about Pog's miserable demeanour and the lack of joy in this race. It's a bad look for the sport.

It is probably hard to enjoy if you have cold and feel exhausted in the final week. Same for Jonas if he can't drop Pog and eat into advantage.

It wasn't easy TDF for any one of them and I believe they want Paris to come sooner rather than later.

They are not robots.

 

[Red Rick]

I find it quite funny that after all the ups and downs over the years we are back at the 2021 race dynamics where Pogacar gains time in the early TT, utterly destroys Vingegaard in the first mountain stages but then cannot actually drop him for the rest of the Tour except by sprinting at the end of climbs. If you forget about the last three years this Tour really seems like a natural progression of 2021.

They've also done some very strange pokémon type reversal where now Pogacar destroys Vingegaard in the heat and can barely get away when the floodgates are open.

 

[Rackham]

It is probably hard to enjoy if you have cold and feel exhausted in the final week. Same for Jonas if he can't drop Pog and eat into advantage.

It wasn't easy TDF for any one of them and I believe they want Paris to come sooner rather than later.

They are not robots.

I'm pretty certain a lot of riders throughout history (in fact all of them) who've been exhausted and suffered were all the more grateful to reach the finish line and win the Tour.

Take yesterday for example: technically it was a great day for Pog. He set a tempo that seemingly for xyz reasons nullified his closest rival on his wheel in the last HC col of the Tour. Great job... except the post-stage interviews and attitudes were miserable as hell. From both of them.

There's more to cycling than Hollywood attacks and showing off, i.e. if these two riders act miserable when they're not putting on a show then I think I might have a different conception of what this sport is supposed to be. It's hard. It's nasty. It's difficult. Everyone suffers.

Now if someone isn't suffering and he's just giggling like a child whilst strolling to victory... then such a rider would be pretty much unique in the history of the sport. The rest of the human race suffers out there.

 

[Jack_89]

Truth is there's no duel, not anymore. In fact Jonas appeared weaker than the 2024. Last week on the alps was a portrait: day by day less and weaker attacks until finish to wheelsucking...very bad if you think he has a 4 mins gap and ad advantage of 6-7 mins on Lipo.
I'm starting to believe that the incident at the PV had his toll e he's the same anymore.

 

[Rackham]

Truth is there no duel, not anymore. In fact Jonas appeared weaker than the 2024. Last week on the alps was a portrait: day by day less and weaker attacks until finish to wheelsucking...very bad if you think he has a 4 mins gap and ad advantage of 6-7 mins on Lipo.
I'm starting to believe that the incident at the PV had his toll e he's the same anymore.

But there is a duel. From the moment Pog isn't at his top level, he's got Vinge on his wheel. In fact Vinge has been on his wheel throughout this Tour except Hautacam. It's the dynamic duo of the Tour.

Neither drops the other except on their super days and it looks like Pog's super days are now much better than Vinge's.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Has become a bit too stale for me, especially in the Alps. I don't like too much stop and go and too many tactics, I want to see destruction.

I think the real rivalry is MVDP. And honestly, usually these races are a lot more fun and Pogacar seems to be enyoying them a heck of a lot more. I guess he just enjoys classics racing more which you can't blame him for - who doesnt? Fisherman and Pog always shakes hands, but it's quite obvious that at least Pogacar doesn't like him. I don't think he can stand Visma and Jonas to be fair, but he still has very much respect for Jonas in a sporting perspective and is afraid to commit too when he isn't at 100%.

 

[Rackham]

The problem is they're polluting each other's race and the race of others.

Their teams chase everyone down in breakaways only to let others ride to victory on the final because of petty mutually destructive reasons (Visma did it when Jorgenson bizarrely attacked from the front group on stage 18 and UAE did it yesterday by letting Arensman win just to spite Vingegaard).

 

[Jack_89]

Has become a bit too stale for me, especially in the Alps. I don't like too much stop and go and too many tactics, I want to see destruction.

I think the real rivalry is MVDP. And honestly, usually these races are a lot more fun and Pogacar seems to be enyoying them a heck of a lot more. I guess he just enjoys classics racing more which you can't blame him for - who doesnt? Fisherman and Pog always shakes hands, but it's quite obvious that at least Pogacar doesn't like him. I don't think he can stand Visma and Jonas to be fair, but he still has very much respect for Jonas in a sporting perspective and is afraid to commit too when he isn't at 100%.

I agree with you on the line, but especially with the bold part.I'm convinced that the dislike is mutual, and nothing will ever convince me otherwise. I believe that all the handshakes, smiles, etc. are just fakes...simply because that's how modern sport is. Antipathies that arise from rivalry aren't accepted. So everyone has to chant "we are the world."

 

[Fos]

I find it quite funny that after all the ups and downs over the years we are back at the 2021 race dynamics where Pogacar gains time in the early TT, utterly destroys Vingegaard in the first mountain stages but then cannot actually drop him for the rest of the Tour except by sprinting at the end of climbs. If you forget about the last three years this Tour really seems like a natural progression of 2021.

Maybe the crash and the max effort the two days after has to say something, the cold too. Factors that drained his spark in the last week.

 

[Jagartrott]

I think it's very much of UAE vs VLAB team performance. UAE general performance is sky high above Visma overall at least last year and this year. Visma can't force Tour peloton the way UAE can, at any decided moment. Visma as a team is in passengers seat most of the time. Most of the time. UAE is the main driver, most of the time. Campenaerts was top domestique in this Tour, Jorgenson was 80% of his top form, rest Visma doms were worthless whereas every single man in UAE were level of Campenaerts or higher, that's a fact.

Nonsense. Adam Yates is largely a no show in this Tour, and Sivakov hasn't been of any help. With Almeida out, UAE depends on famous mountain goat Nils Politt, Wellens and Narvaez. Those guys are riding at a very high level, but this is very far from being the strongest UAE team in the Tour. Pogacar was isolated 2 days ago 70 km from the finish, and yesterday also on the final climb. It's just that Vingegaard and Visma never exploited the situation.