Vino »»»»»»»» Radioshack

[Angliru]

um speaking of dope heads we have a winner here!!!!! get back on the pipe mate,

Is there a space between the "MOWIE" and the "133"? Just asking because I want to add you to my ignore list. Thanks!

 

[auscyclefan94]

Is there a space between the "MOWIE" and the "133"? Just asking because I want to add you to my ignore list. Thanks!

NO space. I will have to add you to my friends list.

 

[ingsve]

IN a perfect world, I understand your point. The world isn't run from the heart, its run by the almighty dollar. This is where fans do come into play. If you dislike Basso, then fans need to stop buying the Liquigas apparel, the Cannondale bikes (The bike provider for them), and all other sponsors connected to his team. When these companies see sales fall and notice its due to have a rider with a history, then they will probably avoid other riders with similiar history because they don't want sales to drop again.

They signed him because it brings them the money they want. This is why the big riders get more money then the domestiques. They usually have a global appeal and following that will come and buy the products and apparel of the new team. With Radioshack sponsoring a team with Lance as its main guy, I read their sales this year in the global market are up approx 10 percent in the first quarter. Thats why he can command his salary, because he makes these companies money.

There are some teams that have decided they are willing to not make as much money to keep a personal ethics to the team. Those are few and far between. Until the risks outweighs the rewards for signing these riders, they will always find a place to ride for.

Yes, I know that money rules the world but that does not make it right. I don't think teams that focus on profit over ethics are evil or anyhing. I understand perfectly why they do it but I believe that they are valueing the wrong things. And that's why I'm arguing against that type of thinking. I would want more teams to have a strict non-doping policy and I would want more fans to use their power by supporting such teams rather that teams that focus mainly on profit and success at any cost.

 

[Angliru]

NO space. I will have to add you to my friends list.

I thought I was already on it. You must have added me when I said something positive about Evans and then tossed me off when I reverted back to form and said something less than flattering.

 

[Carl0880]

Yes, I know that money rules the world but that does not make it right. I don't think teams that focus on profit over ethics are evil or anyhing. I understand perfectly why they do it but I believe that they are valueing the wrong things. And that's why I'm arguing against that type of thinking. I would want more teams to have a strict non-doping policy and I would want more fans to use their power by supporting such teams rather that teams that focus mainly on profit and success at any cost.

Well with all that said, when can i come and see your collection of FDJ and Bbox gear :0)

 

[auscyclefan94]

I thought I was already on it. You must have added me when I said something positive about Evans and then tossed me off when I reverted back to form and said something less than flattering.

Bingo! Some posters are on my friends list like yoyo's.

Anyway, your a poster which I respect a lot more than most on this forum even though I disagree with you sometimes. My first battle on this forum was with you and it was an epic.

 

[ingsve]

Well with all that said, when can i come and see your collection of FDJ and Bbox gear :0)

Well, I'm not a cyclist so I don't have any cycling gear. I think I might have a Team Fakta cap somewhere though.

 

[Cerberus]

If you look at the top 5 for the gc in the Tour during let's say 2000 to 2005, how many of those eventually were found to have been "enhanced"?

I realize the question is probably rhetorical, but I did a count once and 50% of the podiumspots (meaning I counted people who podiumed multible times for each time they podiumed) between 1995-2009 had confessed, tested positive or been thrown out of the sport for doping. 35% had been implicated in doping scandals and only 15% had never been (credibly) implicated. I might even have missed an implication or two.

 

[rhubroma]

And I would be fine with that if you can prove that all riders were cheating. The problem is that without proof it's very hard to do that so we can only focus on those that we can prove have done wrong.

Well were not in the court man. In any case your point is absurd, like not seeing the forest through the trees. And how can you live in such semi-darkness? It's like living in a museum!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I realize the question is probably rhetorical, but I did a count once and 50% of the podium spots between 1995-2009 had confessed, tested positive or been thrown out of the sport for doping. 35% had been implicated in doping scandals and only 15% had never been (credibly) implicated. I might even have missed an implication or two.

We ran that same acid test some months ago in detail - maybe you were part of the discussion then - and you've pretty much got it right. Your numbers may sound cynical to some, but they are accurate.

 

[Cerberus]

We ran that same acid test some months ago in detail - maybe you were part of the discussion then - and you've pretty much got it right. Your numbers may sound cynical to some, but they are accurate.

There's a good chance I was, I collected the information in relation to a thread on this forum in February. I think it was in reply to a question or comment from Immaculate Cadence. On the other hand this discussion has most likely run more than once on the forum.

 

[ingsve]

Well were not in the court man. In any case your point is absurd, like not seeing the forest through the trees. And how can you live in such semi-darkness? It's like living in a museum!

It's very dangerous to assume things without having some sort of evidence. That's why people spend millions on homeopathy and acupuncture etc. They assume that it works just because someone says so but if they actually looked at the facts they would see that it doesn't work at all.

I can't simply assume that everyone is doping because people claim that everyone is doping. I am 100% sure that there are people who are currently not getting caught but I can't know who without actual proof. Doing so would be equivalent to believing in conspiracy theories.

I'm not saying that people are definately clean either but that has to be the null hypothesis until proven otherwise.

 

[ManInFull]

We ran that same acid test some months ago in detail - maybe you were part of the discussion then - and you've pretty much got it right. Your numbers may sound cynical to some, but they are accurate.

And clearly, Lance is in that 15%.

 

[BroDeal]

I realize the question is probably rhetorical, but I did a count once and 50% of the podiumspots (meaning I counted people who podiumed multible times for each time they podiumed) between 1995-2009 had confessed, tested positive or been thrown out of the sport for doping. 35% had been implicated in doping scandals and only 15% had never been (credibly) implicated. I might even have missed an implication or two.

I believe that from 1999 - 2005 everyone who podiumed has been implicated in doping. I think the only possible exception showed up in the files of Conconi, but I am not absolutely sure.

It is ridiculous to hate on Vino, who served his time, when others who we know are just as guilty still have not paid for what they did.

Vino 4 Ever!!!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Bingo! Some posters are on my friends list like yoyo's.

Anyway, your a poster which I respect a lot more than most on this forum even though I disagree with you sometimes. My first battle on this forum was with you and it was an epic.

Epic? If I recall accurately you got beaten like an ugly redheaded stepson.

Edit: This probably drops me off the list again.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Lance, Kloden, Beloki, Basso, Rumsas, Vino, Ulrich, Zulle, Escartin.

Those are the only podium finishers from 1999-2005.

Some serious who's who of dopers right there.

 

[Angliru]

Bingo! Some posters are on my friends list like yoyo's.

Anyway, your a poster which I respect a lot more than most on this forum even though I disagree with you sometimes. My first battle on this forum was with you and it was an epic.

You're a fickle man ACF! Well let me say that I've been impressed with Evans since the end of last year and I find him less annoying than before and even enjoyable to watch on occasion.

Right now I'm sure you're riding on a wave of euphoria so I'm happy for you. Unfortunately you're going to be like a little kid that had a sinful day of eating sugary treats, that sugar high is going to wear off when Evans begins to feel the effects of his Giro efforts, and you and he will come crashing back to the reality of the situation when Contador is a distant blurry spec up the road. Evans should keep his podium spot though, hopefully pushing Armstrong off the final step and into retirement.

 

[Zoncolan]

I believe that from 1999 - 2005 everyone who podiumed has been implicated in doping. I think the only possible exception showed up in the files of Conconi, but I am not absolutely sure.

It is ridiculous to hate on Vino, who served his time, when others who we know are just as guilty still have not paid for what they did.

Vino 4 Ever!!!

You mean Escartin? I wasn't aware he was a client of Conconi.
As for Vino, at least he's not a hypocrite like Dave Millar.

 

[robertocarlos]

Yes, and that's why doping will never disappear from cycling. I think it's disgusting how people can be so hypocritical that a many fans seem to be.

It's not a question of having served his sentence. I'm fine with riders being legally allowed to come back but what I can't stand are people who don't recognize the tremendous damage doping does to the sport.

If a person has committed a murder or some other serious crime then of course that person should get a chance to come back into society but you don't elect him president.

politicians are well know for killing, cheating and stealing and yet they runsn countries because they never get caught. it is not like i am paying taxes to vino or to his team and if i do its because i choose to by buying specialized, sram, look keos, or zipp products.

 

[Cerberus]

I believe that from 1999 - 2005 everyone who podiumed has been implicated in doping. I think the only possible exception showed up in the files of Conconi, but I am not absolutely sure.

Well there's a lot of room for debate on what counts as a "credible" implication. Evans and Sastre were two of those I counted as "not implicated".

 

[BroDeal]

Well there's a lot of room for debate on what counts as a "credible" implication. Evans and Sastre were two of those I counted as "not implicated".

What I was thinking of is that the top tens from 1999 - 2005 have very few non-implicated riders in them. Sastre and Evans are part of the few. There is a thread somewhere in The Clinic...where this discussion should probably continue.

 

[robertocarlos]

People keep saying that riders have served their time and equates it with criminals having served their sentence. There is a major difference however. Returning to society to live ones life is a right of any person but being a professional athlete is not a right, it's a privilege. There are things you can do to lose that privilege and abusing the trust of everyone around you by cheating is such a thing. If someone embezzle from their job then they have given up their privilege of working with other peoples money.

wtf? privileges are earned and according to the uci he was good enogh to be pro tour material. do you acrually know any pro athletes or have been involved in athletic organizations @ olympic or pro level? with or without dopevino basso and armstrong are miles ahead of most readers here. ands eventhough i do not like armstrong it will be naive from my part to say that dope was the only reason for his success. tactics, charisma, race smarts are among other aspects of racing that grats a rider that privilege. believe me if vino did not have at least a couple of these attributes he would not not be here. every rider that is at the top of the pro tour list is there not only for his beyond the normal vo2max. do i condem doping? not really if i was to get a couple of epo shots, i would not become vino or contador over night. and it isn't like doping does not have its side effects. i remember that my t&f college coaches use to say "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying hard enough" or "you are not cheating until you get caught".

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Well there's a lot of room for debate on what counts as a "credible" implication. Evans and Sastre were two of those I counted as "not implicated".

Well, neither of them were on the podium between 1999-2005 at the Tour.

 

[_yngve_]

LMAO. BB just owns mowie.

I'm with Ryo Hazuki here. Vino did the crime then served the time. Welcome back. Those are the rules. Plus, I do think he's been the most exciting rider to watch in the last 5-6 years.

If they guy would only suck it up and admit it, and show some freakin humility he'd find folks far more willing to accept him back into the fold.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

If they guy would only suck it up and admit it, and show some freakin humility he'd find folks far more willing to accept him back into the fold.

Like Basso did? Right.