Voeckler doping?

[Bala Verde]

Voeckler is 0 on the UCI suspicion list which means he is not as suspicious as someone like Barredo (10), Menchov (9) and VDB2 (8).

Didn't that list also imply that the lower ranked guys would be tested less?

 

[Cloxxki]

Funny stuff right here. Guys like Vandenbroeck spend their entire YEAR preparing for the tour. They train like a maniac and work insane hours in the mountains. These guys are "outsiders" for a podium spot, top 5 "contenders". And then you have Voeckler, who comes to the TdF without much specific preparation, goes into breaks etc and he basically pummels guys like Basso, Sanchez, Cunego in all the mountain stages except on the Alpe d'Huez, where he loses merely 2.5 minutes on these guys. In the meanwhile he seems to have the most impressive mountain team as well, even whithout Kern...

Yeah, i wonder why he would be more suspicious. I would like to see him do this again... outside of France.

At least Voeckler is beating those superheroes as they are climbing minutes slower than in prior year, having bad days, or het still has to suck their wheels uphill.
I have to be open for Voeckler doping, but his transformation is just a fraction than we've seen from the like of HeWhoShallNotBeNamed and Wiggins. Getting an advantage in a break most every year, and they holding on for dear life, every year better, in a time when doping is getting harder and harder to get double digit % gains from, it's not THAT far fetched as surving cancer, and then winning the whole thing 7 times on pure determination. Or a track riding making the climbers look like rookies at their own game.

 

[thirteen]

Voeckler is 0 on the UCI suspicion list which means he is not as suspicious as someone like Barredo (10), Menchov (9) and VDB2 (8).

Didn't that list also imply that the lower ranked guys would be tested less?

they test the guy in yellow after every stage, i believe.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

At least Voeckler is beating those superheroes as they are climbing minutes slower than in prior year, having bad days, or het still has to suck their wheels uphill.
I have to be open for Voeckler doping, but his transformation is just a fraction than we've seen from the like of HeWhoShallNotBeNamed and Wiggins. Getting an advantage in a break most every year, and they holding on for dear life, every year better, in a time when doping is getting harder and harder to get double digit % gains from, it's not THAT far fetched as surving cancer, and then winning the whole thing 7 times on pure determination. Or a track riding making the climbers look like rookies at their own game.

Without his break advantage he still would be well within the top 10. That means you can podium in the Vuelta or do top 5 in the Giro. Let's see it.
Going in breaks also consumes a lot of energy.
Not arguing with the rest of your post though.

Voeckler is 0 on the UCI suspicion list which means he is not as suspicious as someone like Barredo (10), Menchov (9) and VDB2 (8).

Didn't that list also imply that the lower ranked guys would be tested less?

When those numbers were leaked, there was little reason to question Voecklers performances as well. If you all believe he is riding cleanly, he should try to win the tour next year.

 

[Bala Verde]

they test the guy in yellow after every stage, i believe.

yes but before. The more samples you have the better they can analyze blood profile. If he only had 4 tests behind his name, there is maybe not much to compare it with before the TdF.

What year did the suspicion list cover?

 

[webvan]

Held his own today, very much like guys who thought it out did in the 80s, nice work and of course Rolland winning at the Alpe, beating ex-superman Contador in the process, will help get over the loss of the YJ that he'd predicted would happen a long time ago.

 

[Jeanne]

Reconciled? Thanks for meeting me half way.

I am glad to see that this year the speeds are down (especially on the climbs) and the suffering is up. I am not just talking about the grimaces, these guys are struggling to finish. This is a good sign for me as a confirmed cynic. I am surprised at all the "hate" towards French riders that are now integrating the top 10. Lets be realistic, a 4th and 10th overall and 1 stage win isn't exactly earth shattering, even if it is a big improvement over past years.

I don't know if Voeckler/Rolland are doping. I do know that there is a very strong anti-doping culture here (having talked with individuals on French teams) and many signs point towards the French riders being relatively clean. I hope that Voeckler's 4th overall (for now) is the result of a timely break and a lot of guts from a top level rider. I could be wrong, but I would like to see the criticism justified by more than the fact that they are riding near the front. After all, someone has to be at the front!

Everything's fine frenchfry
Hate towards French riders? What makes you think so, the whole Europcar-Stuff? I know, I'm also criticising around here, but that doesn't mean I hate anyone! Hey, even my avatar shows French riders! And Sylvain has been one of my favorite riders in the whole peloton for years! I would have died of happiness if he ever had developed into a serious GC contender - but even if this always remained a dream, I think he's great and adorable anyway!

I stopped following races for a long time because I was just too annoyed, re-started 4 years ago. It seems that some things have changed, here I agree with you; we don't see many too ridiculous "unbelievable" performances anymore - at least within the races I have time to watch.
I have no real idea what to think or feel about the performances we are seeing those days in terms of doped or not. To protect myself from too much disappointment I chose to remain critical and a bit cynical. If Voeckler turned out as a doper, I still wouldn't be surprised at all - which holds true for other riders as well. Voecklers performance this year seems much more unbelievable to me than that of others. Fingers crossed the circumstances were just lucky and he grabbed his chances!

 

[thirteen]

yes but before. The more samples you have the better they can analyze blood profile. If he only had 4 tests behind his name, there is maybe not much to compare it with before the TdF.

What year did the suspicion list cover?

2010 TdF

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...ng-suspicions-from-2010-tour-de-france_172784

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Like i said. I'd like to see him do it again, outside of France.

Ride climbs at 5.7 w/kg? He's probably been doing that his whole career, or at least was in 2004 and is again this year. But it wouldn't put him in the same GC position at other races. Voeckler isn't the surprise. Contador, Schlecks, Evans climbing at realistic speeds is the real story.

Estimates much higher at the Giro
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8839&page=22

Horner was in Lance territory at California.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=580515

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Ride climbs at 5.7 w/kg? He's probably been doing that his whole career, or at least was in 2004 and is again this year. But it wouldn't put him in the same GC position at other races. Voeckler isn't the surprise. Contador, Schlecks, Evans climbing at realistic speeds is the real story.

Estimates much higher at the Giro
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8839&page=22

Horner was in Lance territory at California.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=580515

Then how come Voeckler is the only one bridging the gap? And you should really look past those numbers. Look how he makes a jump from the peleton to Contador without really tanking later on. The guy has been going in breaks, has countered attacks a lot more than the other favorites, starting in the second week. I didn't see the other 170 guys in the peleton do the same for the first time in their lives.

Anyway, i don't care too much for an otherwise second rate rider. I'm not 100% convinced he is doping, i just think it's highly suspicious for a 32 (?) year old to suddenly show this "potential" all of a sudden. I would truly like to see him repeat the feat.

 

[frenchfry]

Everything's fine frenchfry
Hate towards French riders? What makes you think so, the whole Europcar-Stuff? I know, I'm also criticising around here, but that doesn't mean I hate anyone! Hey, even my avatar shows French riders! And Sylvain has been one of my favorite riders in the whole peloton for years! I would have died of happiness if he ever had developed into a serious GC contender - but even if this always remained a dream, I think he's great and adorable anyway!

I stopped following races for a long time because I was just too annoyed, re-started 4 years ago. It seems that some things have changed, here I agree with you; we don't see many too ridiculous "unbelievable" performances anymore - at least within the races I have time to watch.
I have no real idea what to think or feel about the performances we are seeing those days in terms of doped or not. To protect myself from too much disappointment I chose to remain critical and a bit cynical. If Voeckler turned out as a doper, I still wouldn't be surprised at all - which holds true for other riders as well. Voecklers performance this year seems much more unbelievable to me than that of others. Fingers crossed the circumstances were just lucky and he grabbed his chances!

I did put "hate" in quotation marks, it has become a figure of speech in the clinic and I wasn't referring to you specifically. After all there are 400+ posts in the Voeckler doping thread and Macroadie and myself are about the only ones saying that his doping isn't a foregone conclusion.

As previously discussed, we are missing our usual reference points this year as to what is normal performance. Even Contador is looking pretty human. At one point today I thought the 3 leaders would never make to the finish, they all looked cooked. In previous years there has often been sustained sprinting all the way up the climbs. So was Voeckler's performance just a motivated but realistic ride from a pretty darned good rider against a significantly less doped field? Here is hoping so. And I am still looking for a better argument than it isn't logical for French riders to be seen at the front of the TDF. Some of them actually work pretty hard, despite their reputation.

 

[hrotha]

Voeckler is 0 on the UCI suspicion list which means he is not as suspicious as someone like Barredo (10), Menchov (9) and VDB2 (8).

Didn't that list also imply that the lower ranked guys would be tested less?

That list was made for the 2010 Tour. Voeckler and Bouygues did nothing suspicious back then. It doesn't say anything about 2011, or about their current suspicious index.

 

[pmcg76]

Then how come Voeckler is the only one bridging the gap? And you should really look past those numbers. Look how he makes a jump from the peleton to Contador without really tanking later on. The guy has been going in breaks, has countered attacks a lot more than the other favorites, starting in the second week. I didn't see the other 170 guys in the peleton do the same for the first time in their lives.

Anyway, i don't care too much for an otherwise second rate rider. I'm not 100% convinced he is doping, i just think it's highly suspicious for a 32 (?) year old to suddenly show this "potential" all of a sudden. I would truly like to see him repeat the feat.

The French in general have been going better in this Tour than they have in many years, maybe not on the stage winning front but definitely on the GC which is where they really seemd to suffer before. Look how many young French guys or guys on French teams have been battling it out for the White jersey. Yes, a lot of the expected contenders are out so they are probably placed higher but their proximity to the big names in terms of time lost is also closing.

It all boils down to what people want to believe. The power rates seem to be down this year compared to previously, there no longer seems to be teams capable of riding on the front in the mountains all day. Even Leopard have not been that dominant. If you believe Garmin are clean and that the likes of Cunego and Basso are cleaner now than previously then all of this indicates that pro-cycling is indeed a lot cleaner than previously.

If the French have been as clean as it is alleged, then it is normal that they will improve which is what seems to be happening. Now Voeckler has improved even beyond my expectations so I understand the suspicion. However, I have always believed that certain riders would go for stage wins rather than stay Top 20 on GC. That doesnt mean they dont have talent, it means they use it differently. Moncoutie is a good example, he placed Top 15 once during the Lance years but elected to go for stage wins in future Tours rather than contend for GC and has never come near replicating that performance. Give a guy like that the MJ and you could see a different rider totally though.

I also remember Charly Mottet ruling himself out as a Tour contender after a particularly poor Tour in 1990 deciding to instead focus on stage wins instead, the following year(1991) he got in the break on the first mountain stage and ended up 4th matching his best overall performance despite not aiming for GC. I dont think Steve Bauer was ever a Tour contender either but he ended up 4th in 1988 after wearing the MJ for a period.

I am not close minded to the idea of Voeckler doping, just adding a few more facts into the debate.

 

[Jeanne]

I did put "hate" in quotation marks, it has become a figure of speech in the clinic and I wasn't referring to you specifically. After all there are 400+ posts in the Voeckler doping thread and Macroadie and myself are about the only ones saying that his doping isn't a foregone conclusion.

As previously discussed, we are missing our usual reference points this year as to what is normal performance. Even Contador is looking pretty human. At one point today I thought the 3 leaders would never make to the finish, they all looked cooked. In previous years there has often been sustained sprinting all the way up the climbs. So was Voeckler's performance just a motivated but realistic ride from a pretty darned good rider against a significantly less doped field? Here is hoping so. And I am still looking for a better argument than it isn't logical for French riders to be seen at the front of the TDF. Some of them actually work pretty hard, despite their reputation.

The things that make me sceptical are that Voeckler is not known to be a very good climber. And he said himself somewhere he did not prepare for this tour differently than in other years. Furthermore is he neither a rider where you can see a continuous development that screams future GC contender nor was he always that strong. And suddenly he can compete so well with the top favorites. All this was already mentioned before. BUT there is the point you mentioned: usual reference points are more or less missing, since many favorites dropped out of the race, are not strong as usual like Contador or did not even really try before this week, like the Schlecks. And of course Voeckler is highly motivated to defend the MJ. These points should not be underestimated IMO.
So, finally I give him a 50:50 chance of being clean. Or shortly said: I have NO IDEA

 

[frenchfry]

The French in general have been going better in this Tour than they have in many years, maybe not on the stage winning front but definitely on the GC which is where they really seemd to suffer before. Look how many young French guys or guys on French teams have been battling it out for the White jersey. Yes, a lot of the expected contenders are out so they are probably placed higher but their proximity to the big names in terms of time lost is also closing.

It all boils down to what people want to believe. The power rates seem to be down this year compared to previously, there no longer seems to be teams capable of riding on the front in the mountains all day. Even Leopard have not been that dominant. If you believe Garmin are clean and that the likes of Cunego and Basso are cleaner now than previously then all of this indicates that pro-cycling is indeed a lot cleaner than previously.

If the French have been as clean as it is alleged, then it is normal that they will improve which is what seems to be happening. Now Voeckler has improved even beyond my expectations so I understand the suspicion. However, I have always believed that certain riders would go for stage wins rather than stay Top 20 on GC. That doesnt mean they dont have talent, it means they use it differently. Moncoutie is a good example, he placed Top 15 once during the Lance years but elected to go for stage wins in future Tours rather than contend for GC and has never come near replicating that performance. Give a guy like that the MJ and you could see a different rider totally though.

I also remember Charly Mottet ruling himself out as a Tour contender after a particularly poor Tour in 1990 deciding to instead focus on stage wins instead, the following year(1991) he got in the break on the first mountain stage and ended up 4th matching his best overall performance despite not aiming for GC. I dont think Steve Bauer was ever a Tour contender either but he ended up 4th in 1988 after wearing the MJ for a period.

I am not close minded to the idea of Voeckler doping, just adding a few more facts into the debate.

Nice balanced post.

The Steve Bauer comparison is one I like. Similar circumstances (if I remember correctly), similar riding styles.

 

[pmcg76]

Nice balanced post.

The Steve Bauer comparison is one I like. Similar circumstances (if I remember correctly), similar riding styles.

I also think of Nicolas Roche this Tour, top 15 last year, Top 10 in the Vuelta, his aim coming into the Tour was Top 10 finish, once he realised that wasnt going to happen he changed focus to stage wins. He was still top 20 when he changed focus and I am sure if he had continued to ride steadily he would have finished in the Top 20 but that has no benefit for him personally.

I now think Roche will no longer focus on aiming for the Top 10 at the Tour. With no disrespect intended I dont think he was ever a Top 10 guy. Also I would have to say if he ever rode like Voeckler this year, the suspicion radar would have been going crazy. Not sure what side that backs then. Both???

 

[luckyboy]

That list was made for the 2010 Tour. Voeckler and Bouygues did nothing suspicious back then. It doesn't say anything about 2011, or about their current suspicious index.

I know the list considered blood values and their past etc., but didn't that list also take into account out-of-the-ordinary performances?

 

[hrotha]

I know the list considered blood values and their past etc., but didn't that list also take into account out-of-the-ordinary performances?

Officially, yes. At least that's what the UCI and JV said, but then people like Cancellara should be pretty high on the list just because of his performances, and he was a 0. Supposedly it also took into account the likelihood of a particular riding targeting the Tour. I don't know. There's so many factors the index might be virtually useless to determine who's got the weirdest blood values, but the paranoid in me (and these days that part is almost taking over) suggests performance and season peaks were not part of the calculation, but an attempt to muddy the waters and do some damage control.

At any rate, it is still a snapshot of a particular time.

 

[ChrisE]

I did put "hate" in quotation marks, it has become a figure of speech in the clinic and I wasn't referring to you specifically. After all there are 400+ posts in the Voeckler doping thread and Macroadie and myself are about the only ones saying that his doping isn't a foregone conclusion.

As previously discussed, we are missing our usual reference points this year as to what is normal performance. Even Contador is looking pretty human. At one point today I thought the 3 leaders would never make to the finish, they all looked cooked. In previous years there has often been sustained sprinting all the way up the climbs. So was Voeckler's performance just a motivated but realistic ride from a pretty darned good rider against a significantly less doped field? Here is hoping so. And I am still looking for a better argument than it isn't logical for French riders to be seen at the front of the TDF. Some of them actually work pretty hard, despite their reputation.

I'm in the camp with you two.

It's pretty funny that people claim doping gives a skewed playing field, ie it doesn't let people see who the real best athletes are. Yet times are way down (indicating a cleaner peleton) and there is more parity, and people say the ones climbing with the previous suspected dopers must now be doping.

 

[sartoris]

Oh, but French riders never dope, do they?

 

[thirteen]

I did put "hate" in quotation marks, it has become a figure of speech in the clinic and I wasn't referring to you specifically. After all there are 400+ posts in the Voeckler doping thread and Macroadie and myself are about the only ones saying that his doping isn't a foregone conclusion.

As previously discussed, we are missing our usual reference points this year as to what is normal performance. Even Contador is looking pretty human. At one point today I thought the 3 leaders would never make to the finish, they all looked cooked. In previous years there has often been sustained sprinting all the way up the climbs. So was Voeckler's performance just a motivated but realistic ride from a pretty darned good rider against a significantly less doped field? Here is hoping so. And I am still looking for a better argument than it isn't logical for French riders to be seen at the front of the TDF. Some of them actually work pretty hard, despite their reputation.

the hate comment was justified. there was a lot of crowing in other threads that the frenchies hadn't gotten their win. i found it highly distasteful. Rolland saved the day but, of course, a thread on him here in the Clinic had to start

and i never said Voeckler doping was a foregone conclusion. i just said that he had gotten a hell of a lot better this year than i've ever seen him... then again, i'm torn at saying he is clean because i've been told how foolish it is to believe that anybody rides clean...

very confused about the whole thing, but i don't believe Voeckler did anything outside his capabilities. he is an opportunist cyclist who took advantage of the situation and hung on for dear life... chapeau!

 

[ChrisE]

Let's get to some important stuff.

Are those your legs, thirteen?

 

[thirteen]

Let's get to some important stuff.

Are those your legs, thirteen?

mine are even better

 

[ggusta]

mine are even better

The disappointment that is hanging over this forum right now is palpable. Like the black clouds of an impending thunderstorm.

My day is ruined. Going for a walk. Who cares about the outcome of the ITT. Those are just some chicks legs he found on the internet.

 

[patricknd]

mine are even better

So are mine