Voeckler doping?

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The French in general have been going better in this Tour than they have in many years, maybe not on the stage winning front but definitely on the GC which is where they really seemd to suffer before. Look how many young French guys or guys on French teams have been battling it out for the White jersey. Yes, a lot of the expected contenders are out so they are probably placed higher but their proximity to the big names in terms of time lost is also closing.

It all boils down to what people want to believe. The power rates seem to be down this year compared to previously, there no longer seems to be teams capable of riding on the front in the mountains all day. Even Leopard have not been that dominant. If you believe Garmin are clean and that the likes of Cunego and Basso are cleaner now than previously then all of this indicates that pro-cycling is indeed a lot cleaner than previously.

If the French have been as clean as it is alleged, then it is normal that they will improve which is what seems to be happening. Now Voeckler has improved even beyond my expectations so I understand the suspicion. However, I have always believed that certain riders would go for stage wins rather than stay Top 20 on GC. That doesnt mean they dont have talent, it means they use it differently. Moncoutie is a good example, he placed Top 15 once during the Lance years but elected to go for stage wins in future Tours rather than contend for GC and has never come near replicating that performance. Give a guy like that the MJ and you could see a different rider totally though.

I also remember Charly Mottet ruling himself out as a Tour contender after a particularly poor Tour in 1990 deciding to instead focus on stage wins instead, the following year(1991) he got in the break on the first mountain stage and ended up 4th matching his best overall performance despite not aiming for GC. I dont think Steve Bauer was ever a Tour contender either but he ended up 4th in 1988 after wearing the MJ for a period.

I am not close minded to the idea of Voeckler doping, just adding a few more facts into the debate.

... this one post sums up my points too. I only needed 10+ more posts to describe it.

 

[MacRoadie]

From the Power Data Estimates thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=623142&postcount=427

Interesting thread.

If it helps, L'Equipe published official times for the top 10 this morning. Here they are:

Sanchez: 41.45
Contador: 41.54
Rolland: 42.22
Evans/ Schleck group: 42.28
Danielson: 42.46

Plus Voeckler: 44.53

 

[mewmewmew13]

So are mine

So are mine

 

[mewmewmew13]

Let's get to some important stuff.

Are those your legs, thirteen?

gee ChrisE now you can start a whole new thread about your important stuff

 

[Broth3r]

I don't think people have considered one thing: if it does turn out that Voeckler doped, we're talking about a cluster**** of biblical proportions. Given his popularity, status as a rider who rides on nothing but guts, the country he's from, and the show he put up this year, we're talking about something bigger than even Contador, rivaling what would happened if Armstrong was caught while racing. I may be exaggerating here, but it could well have the same effect on France than Ullrich had on Germany when they ****ed him up (no, I'm not waving on this one). And if that happens, well... Things aren't going to be pretty.

And now I will calmly walk out of this forum because discussing doping and raising suspicions on everyone ruins the sport almost as much as true doping does, but that's just me.

 

[VeloGirl]

I kind of agree with the last post. If Voekler is doping - we will never know about it.

 

[sniper]

I don't think people have considered one thing: if it does turn out that Voeckler doped, we're talking about a cluster**** of biblical proportions. Given his popularity, status as a rider who rides on nothing but guts, the country he's from, and the show he put up this year, we're talking about something bigger than even Contador, rivaling what would happened if Armstrong was caught while racing. I may be exaggerating here, but it could well have the same effect on France than Ullrich had on Germany when they ****ed him up (no, I'm not waving on this one). And if that happens, well... Things aren't going to be pretty.

And now I will calmly walk out of this forum because discussing doping and raising suspicions on everyone ruins the sport almost as much as true doping does, but that's just me.

+1 to the first part,

-1 to the part in bold though.
who's discussing doping? certainly those who should (UCI) aren't, even though they (them corrupt fools at the UCI) are the main reason why we (outsiders on an innocent forum) are discussing doping in the first place.

 

[sniper]

winning is the motto, no matter how

Europcar teammanager formulates team's main objectives:

our objective is just to be good and to win races

What counts is to win, and we shouldn't lose this way of managing to win."

We just need a little more, and we have the means. Europcar has agreed for us to grow. They told me that we can go race abroad

I know a few guys that I would like to sign

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/europcar-to-strengthen-squad-after-success-at-the-tour-de-france

This guy stinks more than my underpants after two weeks of camping in the wild.

 

[hiero2]

. . .
and i never said Voeckler doping was a foregone conclusion. i just said that he had gotten a hell of a lot better this year than i've ever seen him... then again, i'm torn at saying he is clean because i've been told how foolish it is to believe that anybody rides clean...

very confused about the whole thing, but i don't believe Voeckler did anything outside his capabilities. he is an opportunist cyclist who took advantage of the situation and hung on for dear life... chapeau!

I remember 2004 very well, and what a wonderful tour that was, because of Tommy Voeckler. Today, I believe most ppl will agree that in 2004 there was doping by many of the top riders. But, let us say for a minute that Voeckler did not dope, or did so only minimally that year. I seem to recall that Voeckler's stance has always been such that I believed him clean. He showed incredible tenacity that year. Really and truly incredible. You know, he has never had another opportunity like that at the Tour since then - until this year. So, while I too have to wonder if he perhaps received an energy transfusion this year, he has shown precedent for him being able to ride like this.

And, this year we did not see any circumstances where the Schlecks or Contador - or anyone else, got to isolate single riders to attack. The Schlecks could not focus on Evans alone, or Contador alone, or Voeckler alone - because they were all there responding, and they all had hope.

So, while I do wonder, I am thinking this was the cleanest Tour I have seen since the early 1990's. I think the Schlecks and Contador avoided doing anything, which helps account for their lack of miraculous dominance. And I think I believe that Evans has generally avoided outright doping practices, too. Based on this, I think Tommy's performance was within the realm of the possibly real.

Because of 2004, what Tommy did is not new, or unkown for him. He has shown this type of grit before. And, he was following everybody this year, he almost never got in front. He just rode defensively. In past years, when he was 32nd on time, why bother hanging at the front unless he thought he could win the stage? Which is what we saw him do. And, we usually HAVE seen him actively and aggressively trying to win stages. He just hasn't had an opportunity like this since 2004. And, this time, he is far more mature, and the attacks were either ones he could follow, or that he could follow with the help of Evans and Contador. When Andy finally went and made a lasting attack - Voeckler did not go with him. Etc.

So, for now, I'm voting for Tommy riding clean, or at least reasonably clean. Regardless, he showed true grit in a way that we rarely get to see. This was the best Tour I have seen since 2004, and before that 1989.

Voeckler? Chapeau!

. . .
And now I will calmly walk out of this forum because discussing doping and raising suspicions on everyone ruins the sport almost as much as true doping does, but that's just me.

Concur. It is a fine line.

 

[Frosty]

Voeckler did quite well at the end of giro '10, finishing 22nd and 12th on the last 2 mountain stages. Given that he would have been peaking for the tour maybe it showed him that he could do quite well in the mountains and inspired him for this year.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Europcar teammanager formulates team's main objectives:


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/europcar-to-strengthen-squad-after-success-at-the-tour-de-france

This guy stinks more than my underpants after two weeks of camping in the wild.

Why did you hack away at JRB's quotes to put him in the worst possible light?

Bernaudeau denied that his objective was to return to the top flight in 2012. "No, our objective is just to be good and to win races. We will strengthen the squad and apply for a licence, but we have never talked about points in the team. What counts is to win, and we shouldn't lose this way of managing to win."

Getting WorldTour points is not a priority - a good philosophy IMO if you want to avoid doping. The races he wants to win are in France and part of their league because that to JRB is more important for him and his sponsors.

I would recommend you read Paul Kimmages latest piece in the Sunday Times (unfortunately it is behind a paywall) where he talks with Bernaudeau:

So you can imagine how it felt to be Bernaudeau on Friday at Alpe d’Huez. Nine months ago, he lost his title sponsor and his team were on the verge of extinction until Europcar stepped in. The new sponsor had one condition: Voeckler, who had received a bigger offer elsewhere, had to stay with the team. The result was never in doubt. “In Vendée, we’re interested in ethics, not money, but he’s an extraordinary man,” Bernaudeau says, “and a true leader for the values the sport should be espousing. I’ve had to pinch myself so many times since the start. Seven of the nine riders on the team have come through the youth programme, and to take the yellow jersey and win at Alpe d’Huez is just ...

“I lost here in ’83 but I always told my riders, ‘I never won at Alpe d’Huez but it didn’t change my life. Winning is worth nothing if there are no emotions’. I think the politicians are beginning to understand that sport is endangered [by doping] and by extension that society is in danger. If we can’t say to our kids, ‘Play sport because it’s good’, what are we going to say? Sport cannot be a circus act.”

“This must feel pretty special,” I suggest.

“It’s a revenge of sorts ... destiny,” he smiles. “All this week there have been kids jumping on their bikes saying, ‘I’m Thomas Voeckler’. You can’t put a price on that.”

Kimmage also spoke with Voeckler:

Last week, he did it again but the plaudits make him uncomfortable. “I ride the bike my own way, with my own ideas,” he says. “And I think there are a lot of riders in the peloton who have the same vision for the bike. I am not the barometer for the state of doping in the peloton; if I finish off the back, you can’t say it’s because of doping. And if I finish in the front, you can’t say it’s because there is no doping.”

“But we are saying it, Thomas,” I reply.

“Well, that’s not my job, that’s your job — my job is to pedal. I ride the bike with my own convictions, my ideas, and I try to keep that aspect of it out of my head. For a few years now, I’ve carved my own path without paying too much attention to what was going on because it would have been too easy to be discouraged.”

 

[sniper]

Why did you hack away at JRB's quotes to put him in the worst possible light?



Getting WorldTour points is not a priority - a good philosophy IMO if you want to avoid doping. The races he wants to win are in France and part of their league because that to JRB is more important for him and his sponsors.

I would recommend you read Paul Kimmages latest piece in the Sunday Times (unfortunately it is behind a paywall) where he talks with Bernaudeau:


Kimmage also spoke with Voeckler:

thanks, and you're right. my post wasn'T the most nuanced.

But I find Voeckler's and JRB's answers little convincing nonetheless.
What Voeckler and Rolland did is quite a stunt if they did it clean.
Doping in cycling is still the norm. So I believe they doped until proven otherwise.
Not that anybody at Europcar will have sleepless nights over me thinking they're dirty, but still.
Cycling has, and cyclists have, not yet deserved the benefit of the doubt. Not by a long shot.

p.s. Note that Kimmage has become relatively positive/mild in his latest interviews. Now that LA is gone, he's no longer fishing like he used to with LA, no longer going for all the tough questions. He's more mild now.

 

[Cloxxki]

Once you're a pro, with access to unlimited doping knowledge, why would you dope "a little"? Is ethics a consideration for them, between doping a little and a lot? EPO wasn't detectable for many years, would anyone take "a little", and be happy with one percent point higher Hc when others were getting 10+?

Would there still be super pro's thinking that one style of doping is beyond them, and the other is not?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

thanks, and you're right. my post wasn'T the most nuanced.

But I find Voeckler's and JRB's answers little convincing nonetheless.
What Voeckler and Rolland did is quite a stunt if they did it clean.

What I read in JRB's comments is consistent with a team trying to do things the right way (whether its PR &not true is a separate point) - what should/could someone say to convince you?

Doping in cycling is still the norm. So I believe they doped until proven otherwise.
Not that anybody at Europcar will have sleepless nights over me thinking they're dirty, but still.
Cycling has, and cyclists have, not yet deserved the benefit of the doubt. Not by a long shot.

Well, if you believe doping is the norm then yes, everyone will be guilty of doping.
However there is quite a lot of data to suggest this Tour was much slower than previous years (& certainly the 90's) - did Europcar suddenly find their white lunchbags are did the rest of the peloton come down to their leavel?

p.s. Note that Kimmage has become relatively positive/mild in his latest interviews. Now that LA is gone, he's no longer fishing like he used to with LA, no longer going for all the tough questions. He's more mild now.

Am, did you see hear him at the Contador press conference? And it is obvious you did not take up my suggestion of reading his interview with Bernaudeau as he directly discusses his (JRB's) doping with him.

 

[sniper]

What I read in JRB's comments is consistent with a team trying to do things the right way (whether its PR &not true is a separate point) - what should/could someone say to convince you?


Well, if you believe doping is the norm then yes, everyone will be guilty of doping.
However there is quite a lot of data to suggest this Tour was much slower than previous years (& certainly the 90's) - did Europcar suddenly find their white lunchbags are did the rest of the peloton come down to their leavel?



Am, did you see hear him at the Contador press conference? And it is obvious you did not take up my suggestion of reading his interview with Bernaudeau as he directly discusses his (JRB's) doping with him.

good points.
Anyway, I do believe the Tour was cleaner., but certainly NOT due to a sudden change of mindset or a sudden attack of goodwill on the part of the racers or teammanagers.
If it was cleaner, it's cuz the teams had problems getting their equipment into France, or because some were simply too scared to get caught.
(and the pace being low can at least partially be attributed to the fact that some of the true mountain goats weren't present and that AC wasn'T at his best).

Re: Europcar...there might be more goodwill there than in other teams, you've convinced me there.
but, well, they have this new sponsor, and suddenly results start coming in.
I'm too skeptic to believe that that's due to chance or to something else other than a program.
I'd be interested in reading the rest of the Kimmage interview though.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

good points.
Anyway, I do believe the Tour was cleaner., but certainly NOT due to a sudden change of mindset or a sudden attack of goodwill on the part of the racers or teammanagers.
If it was cleaner, it's cuz the teams had problems getting their equipment into France, or because some were simply too scared to get caught.
(and the pace being low can at least partially be attributed to the fact that some of the true mountain goats weren't present and that AC wasn'T at his best).

Ya, I would agree - and I made that point on the other thread that I believe it is cleaner because of the proactive stance of the French authorities (AFLD, OCLESP, cops) not because of cycling authorities or some teams.

Re: Europcar...there might be more goodwill there than in other teams, you've convinced me there.
but, well, they have this new sponsor, and suddenly results start coming in.
I'm too skeptic to believe that that's due to chance or to something else other than a program.
I'd be interested in reading the rest of the Kimmage interview though.

I would argue that if a team (or rider) was going to juice up because of team pressure, it would be at the end of a contract to woo new investment - not in its first year.

The Kimmage interview was very enlightening - the Forum (rightly) does not allow people to reproduce the entire piece. You can join the ST for $2 for its first month (and then cancel ).

 

[webvan]

Chapeau Vockler indeed!

Since UCI points were brought up, I was shocked to find out that Voeckler is not ranked at all in the latest UCI ranking as published in CN today. Does it mean he and Europcar get zero point for next year too ?!

 

[ricara]

Free Kimmage Interview???

The Kimmage interview was very enlightening - the Forum (rightly) does not allow people to reproduce the entire piece. You can join the ST for $2 for its first month (and then cancel ).

There is a free article from an Australian newspaper at:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...tour-turn-corner/story-e6frg7rx-1226100929938

I doubt this is the entire interview, but it is a bit more than the good Dottore posted.

Of all the guys in the entire TdF, there is nobody I believe in more than Voeckler and Bernardeau. But that's just me.

 

[Fus087]

Chapeau Vockler indeed!

Since UCI points were brought up, I was shocked to find out that Voeckler is not ranked at all in the latest UCI ranking as published in CN today. Does it mean he and Europcar get zero point for next year too ?!

Europcar is no ProTeam, thus they're not included in the UCI WorldTour rankings.
Voeckler (and the team he'll be riding for next year, most likely Europcar) do get some points in that semi-secret UCI ranking system taking into account not only WorldTour races, but also Continental races.
But if I remember correctly, that ranking only rewards overall placings - so his 10 days in yellow are worth nought for Voeckler, points-wise.
I'm sure he couldn't care less about that particular point, though.

 

[sniper]

There is a free article from an Australian newspaper at:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...tour-turn-corner/story-e6frg7rx-1226100929938

I doubt this is the entire interview, but it is a bit more than the good Dottore posted.

Of all the guys in the entire TdF, there is nobody I believe in more than Voeckler and Bernardeau. But that's just me.

good stuff, thanks.
Il Dottore and you are right, these guys at europcar do seem to deserve the benefit of the doubt.

 

[hrotha]

good stuff, thanks.
Il Dottore and you are right, these guys at europcar do seem to deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know about that article. The Norwegians are clean because they say so? Everyone says they're clean. Hushovd has been winning stages for years, Arvesen was an u23 world champion and won a Giro stage too - all that while doping was supposed to be rampant. Kimmage accepts the "all Frenchmen are clean" narrative and doesn't question it even in front of potentially challenging data. Bernaudeau doped, Kimmage says, but somehow that doesn't affect his credibility as a DS. Bland.

 

[Jeanne]

I don't know about that article. The Norwegians are clean because they say so? Everyone says they're clean. Hushovd has been winning stages for years, Arvesen was an u23 world champion and won a Giro stage too - all that while doping was supposed to be rampant. Kimmage accepts the "all Frenchmen are clean" narrative and doesn't question it even in front of potentially challenging data. Bernaudeau doped, Kimmage says, but somehow that doesn't affect his credibility as a DS. Bland.

who says that? I'd love read or hear those exact words from any cyclist.

 

[hrotha]

who says that? I'd love read or hear those exact words from any cyclist.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/9376630.stm

 

[Jeanne]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/9376630.stm

thanx very much for the link! but why didn't he make such a statement when asked before he got accused

 

[sniper]

I don't know about that article. The Norwegians are clean because they say so? Everyone says they're clean. Hushovd has been winning stages for years, Arvesen was an u23 world champion and won a Giro stage too - all that while doping was supposed to be rampant. Kimmage accepts the "all Frenchmen are clean" narrative and doesn't question it even in front of potentially challenging data. Bernaudeau doped, Kimmage says, but somehow that doesn't affect his credibility as a DS. Bland.

+1
I've been trying to say exactly this, but I got outnumbered before I could find the right words.