Volta ao Algarve 2022 (February 16-20)

[Logic-is-your-friend]

7-10 is too short for this race. Think 20-25 is more suited for Basque Country where there are few sprint stages, mostly designed for punchers and goats. The longer ITT there balances things a bit out more.

10-15 should produce a slightly different kind of winer vs a prologue length TT

It would still favor the TT'ers who perform well in short ITT's, over those who can make a difference in a long one. If a GT should have a short, medium and long ITT (8k-15k-40k) i think a 1 week race could definitely do with the average of that, which would be around 20k. I also don't see why a certain 1 week stagerace shouldn't be able to include a 20+k ITT, as there are plenty that don't have one, or only a really short one. Do they all have to be the same?

 

[houtdffan]

It would still favor the TT'ers who perform well in short ITT's, over those who can make a difference in a long one. If a GT should have a short, medium and long ITT (8k-15k-40k) i think a 1 week race could definitely do with the average of that, which would be around 20k. I also don't see why a certain 1 week stagerace shouldn't be able to include a 20+k ITT, as there are plenty that don't have one, or only a really short one. Do they all have to be the same?

A GT should have a LOT more TT than what you suggested. Probably more like a 7km prologue, a dead flat 60 km ITT, a 40km rolling ITT, and a good MTT (can be something like the 2013 TDF MTT where one has to ascend and descend)

I have no issue with a long ITT in a 1 week race. I said the Dauphine and Suisse should have a 50km ITT. Because they are balanced by high mountain stages. This one has a punchers climb tomorrow and then the fairly gentle summit finish Thursday. Not enough for such a long ITT, IMO. A Romandie course should have an ITT of this length

 

[Big Doopie]

A GT should have a LOT more TT than what you suggested. Probably more like a 7km prologue, a dead flat 60 km ITT, a 40km rolling ITT, and a good MTT (can be something like the 2013 TDF MTT where one has to ascend and descend)

I have no issue with a long ITT in a 1 week race. I said the Dauphine and Suisse should have a 50km ITT. Because they are balanced by high mountain stages. This one has a punchers climb tomorrow and then the fairly gentle summit finish Thursday. Not enough for such a long ITT, IMO. A Romandie course should have an ITT of this length

wow, someone even more inclined to TT.

only quibble: I would be satisfied with between 80-120 kms total ITT for a GT.

For example:

8 km prologue
28 km flat TT
42 km rolling TT
22 km mountain TT

The best rouleurs can often kick a$$ even on the MTT (like Hinault at Avoriaz in 1979) as long as it's in the 6-8% gradient range, nothing dumba$$.

I also like the TTT, but I also understand the reservations of many.

 

[houtdffan]

wow, someone even more inclined to TT.

only quibble: I would be satisfied with between 80-120 kms total ITT for a GT.

For example:

8 km prologue
28 km flat TT
42 km rolling TT
22 km mountain TT

The best rouleurs can often kick a$$ even on the MTT (like Hinault at Avoriaz in 1979) as long as it's in the 6-8% gradient range, nothing dumba$$.

I also like the TTT, but I also understand the reservations of many.

I'd even throw in a 70 km TTT in a GT. That would total about 200 TT km

Yep, I believe the TT is essential in a GT, not the mere side show it has been relegated to today

 

[houtdffan]

Now that I think about it, with PN being far more mountainous these days, perhaps today's TT would be a good length for that race to balance out the climbing. It is more like a mini Dauphine these days, closer to a Romandie course

 

[red_flanders]

Full disclosure: I do like Remco

And, as I have said, this TT is a little out of balance for this race.

However, it is such a shame that GTs have so cut the TTs.

It is the race of truth. Always has been.

And it is a thing of beauty.

And if they brought the balance back in GTs it would force the pure climbers to take risks and attack earlier.

100% with you. I miss the days of real time trialing.

 

[AlfaLum]

It’s a good thing that we have so little TT in GTs nowadays. Makes most Grand Tours way more interesting.

 

[red_flanders]

It’s a good thing that we have so little TT in GTs nowadays. Makes most Grand Tours way more interesting.

I know, all those Grand Tours with Hinault and LeMond were such a snooze-fest.

It really depends on the field. If there is one totally dominant TT'er like Indurain, yes, it's boring.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It’s a good thing that we have so little TT in GTs nowadays. Makes most Grand Tours way more interesting.

Why would they be more interesting now? TT'ing is the purest test there is. No relying on teammates, no snoozefest waiting for the final 500 meters uphill and snatching 8s + the bonis for GC. No, it's man vs man. There are already so many stages that can be decided by team strength and tactics, there is definitely a place for more TT's in a GT. It shouldn't suffice to just be able to climb better than other riders and be part of one of the best teams in order to win a GT. When you look at France, how much of it is actually mountainous? Percentage wise, it's a lot less so than there are mountain stages in the TOUR DE France. It's not the Tour des Montagnes Francaises last i checked.

I can agree there needs to be more variation in TT. Add a real climbing TT every now and then, do various lengths, mix it up.

I'd even throw in a 70 km TTT in a GT. That would total about 200 TT km

Yep, I believe the TT is essential in a GT, not the mere side show it has been relegated to today

A long TTT would likely only kill the race, as it would be won by the richest team 9 out of 10. Do a 70k TTT and you can get massive timedifferences, you could potentially get a rider who would otherwise barely make the top 5, to be in yellow in Paris. I like the discipline but not to influence a GC.

I'm all for a 60k ITT, a shorter climbing ITT , a medium rolling ITT... but not fond of the prospect of one team buying the best TT'ers and deciding a GT in one day. You talk about the loss of balance with this TT in Algarve, but a long TTT in a GT would be much worse.

 

[RedheadDane]

I just think there should be a balance.
Sometimes lots of TTing.
Sometimes little.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Remco crushes competition it TT= we need up to 200km of it in a GT I can only assume anyone who genuinely believes this would be a good thing thought the 2012 Tour was too interesting and Wiggins and Froome should've been allowed to beat everyone else by about an hour.

 

[greyclouds]

60-80 km of ITT in a GT seems like a good balance to me. Make the first a 10km prologue, a 30km halfway to shake up the GC, and a final 20km, not to put the GC upside down, but to define the small margins. Less than that becomes superfluous, imho, and much more than that and it completely makes the GC a battle between the best ITT riders only.

As for Algarve, they have a tradition of a substantial ITT course, usually around 20km in a 5 day race, and they also have a tradition in recent years of having top WT young riders wining here; Remco, Tadej, Roglic, Thomas, Kwiato, last year it would have been Hayter if not for the crash. I think that this year’s 30km one was a way of locking in at least one of the top young riders in the current peloton: Remco, Almeida, Vingo, which are all better than average ITT’ers. They got Remco + Hayter, McNulty and Foss, any of which would have been a deserved young winner. Nothing against the Gaudus and Higuitas, but Algarve always stood for the all-around type of rider. Still, is it unbalanced? It’s an early season pro stage race, I don’t think anyone should care that much about it.

 

[Netserk]

Remco crushes competition it TT= we need up to 200km of it in a GT I can only assume anyone who genuinely believes this would be a good thing thought the 2012 Tour was too interesting and Wiggins and Froome should've been allowed to beat everyone else by about an hour.

Would that Tour have been any more exciting without the last ITT? Then the total would have been 48 km of ITT, less than this and last year's route. The problem was the very unusual field (Contador banned, Schleck's career was over after a crash, Evans was done and unable to reach his Tour winning form, several crashes thinned the field even more; the sudden emergence of Froome and the Sky team with more watts than anyone else), which you cannot blame the route for, and to a lesser extent the mountain stages which were quite poor. Fix one of those two before you fix the ITT.

I'm yet to see those who are for more ITTs be against gruelling mountain stages, so don't conflate the two.

 

[houtdffan]

Why would they be more interesting now? TT'ing is the purest test there is. No relying on teammates, no snoozefest waiting for the final 500 meters uphill and snatching 8s + the bonis for GC. No, it's man vs man. There are already so many stages that can be decided by team strength and tactics, there is definitely a place for more TT's in a GT. It shouldn't suffice to just be able to climb better than other riders and be part of one of the best teams in order to win a GT. When you look at France, how much of it is actually mountainous? Percentage wise, it's a lot less so than there are mountain stages in the TOUR DE France. It's not the Tour des Montagnes Francaises last i checked.

I can agree there needs to be more variation in TT. Add a real climbing TT every now and then, do various lengths, mix it up.


A long TTT would likely only kill the race, as it would be won by the richest team 9 out of 10. Do a 70k TTT and you can get massive timedifferences, you could potentially get a rider who would otherwise barely make the top 5, to be in yellow in Paris. I like the discipline but not to influence a GC.

I'm all for a 60k ITT, a shorter climbing ITT , a medium rolling ITT... but not fond of the prospect of one team buying the best TT'ers and deciding a GT in one day. You talk about the loss of balance with this TT in Algarve, but a long TTT in a GT would be much worse.

I think a 70 km ITT would result in far mroe strategy in team selection. Currently, the teams have centered aorund the best climbing doms, with a couple of flatlanders.

Throw in a 70 km ITT, teams may be forced to leave 1 or 2 of the climbing doms at home. Could open things up quite a bit once we hit the mountains. Or, does the team sacrifice 2-3 minutes in the TTT and blow the race apart with the climbing doms in the mountains?

Or a scenario like in 2001 when Postal crashed. They had to decide do they wait for the team to get back together or continue on. They waited, lost big time, but overcame it

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think a 70 km ITT would result in far mroe strategy in team selection. Currently, the teams have centered aorund the best climbing doms, with a couple of flatlanders.

Throw in a 70 km ITT, teams may be forced to leave 1 or 2 of the climbing doms at home. Could open things up quite a bit once we hit the mountains. Or, does the team sacrifice 2-3 minutes in the TTT and blow the race apart with the climbing doms in the mountains?

Or a scenario like in 2001 when Postal crashed. They had to decide do they wait for the team to get back together or continue on. They waited, lost big time, but overcame it

Are you talking about a 70k ITT or TTT here? Today climbing doms are in many cases also TT'ers when looking at the rich teams as i suggested. Especially if you look at a team like Sky/Ineos. With some work TT'ers could be transformed into medium mountain domestiques easily. Van Aert may have outgrown that role at Jumbo, but there is also Castroviejo, or what about Dennis offering Ineos the 2020 Giro on a platter. I think no real concessions would need to be made by the rich teams as you are suggesting.

 

[TomBonnen2005]

Procyclingstats:

Average race speed so far: 50.922 km/h.
(33 km covered in 00:38:53).

Does it remind you something?

 

[Andre]

I would suggest something in between: More kilometers contre la montre than today, but a little less than in the past. I agree with Logic that it is the ultimate showdown between riders; it is however(in my opinion) not aesthetically pleasing to the viewer as opposed to watching all the riders together. How about throwing in a TT strictly going downhill for say 10 or more kilometres? To me that would be interesting to see the best descenders on their own.

 

[Bolder]

I would suggest something in between: More kilometers contre la montre than today, but a little less than in the past. I agree with Logic that it is the ultimate showdown between riders; it is however(in my opinion) not aesthetically pleasing to the viewer as opposed to watching all the riders together. How about throwing in a TT strictly going downhill for say 10 or more kilometres? To me that would be interesting to see the best descenders on their own.

I confess I don't watch long, flat TTs except for the last few riders, and only then with half an eye. It's rarely compelling, although I'm nearly almost always down for a short, hilly or climbing tt.

I think the sport should move on from long TTs. It's OK.

 

[RedheadDane]

Big break.

1		4	PIDCOCK Thomas
2		15	GAZZOLI Michele
3		27	PÖSTLBERGER Lukas
4		44	LIENHARD Fabian
5		57	ZIMMERMANN Georg
6		65	EENKHOORN Pascal
7		66	STAUNE-MITTET Johannes
8		75	LAMPAERT Yves
9		86	LÓPEZ Juan Pedro
10		95	OLIVEIRA Ivo
11		105	RIESEBEEK Oscar
12		107	DE BONDT Dries
13		117	NICOLAU Joel
14		125	BALLARIN Iker
15		137	ZUKOWSKY Nickolas
16		145	DELAPLACE Anthony
17		197	REIS Rafael
18		202	FONTE César
19		232	MATIAS João
20		245	NEVES José

Peloton at 1:15.

 

[TomBonnen2005]

Which teams are confortable with the break? Ineos (pidcock), Bora (Postlberger), and Intermarché (Zimmermann)?
The rest are only there to make Quickstep work but shouldn't help the break that much.
Interesting anyway.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Pidcock & Riesebeek crashed.

 

[Samamba]

Is it just me or does Pidcock crash a lot?

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Is it just me or does Pidcock crash a lot?

 

[tobydawq]

Even the duck looks unimpressed.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Break has 2m20s.