Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023, March 20-26

[noob]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hn6sgdO15Nc


Almeida interview together with his Chinese babysitter

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

He can do whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean I have to like his wheelsucking on stage 5, when instead of Remco going on the attack for the enth time it could have been Primoz, when Roglic had the legs to do so (stage 3 was another matter, as he could only follow). But Primoz won't do that, because it's not his style to take the initiative, since he always calculates the costs versus the risks.

I just hope that Remco has learned from this and that he pulls over hard and stops forcing the pace the next time Primoz sits on his wheel. In other words, force Roglic to actually race and, above all, not allow him to gain something from your own efforts.

Riders generally calculate the costs versus the risks. That’s why the team strategizes, develops plans, and gives live direction. It is not just Primoz that acts logically to try to win races. Remco has to attack from farther out because (at least until recently) he cannot generally win fast finishes from small groups. Roglic, however, can. They both play to their strengths. Also, Roglic has attacked many times, but he’s also so good at ITTs and finishing fast that he is almost always in the position of power defending a lead. But, of course, when he isn’t in the lead and he attacks, it doesn’t count for some because “he needed to.”

Here is an example of an attack from farther out: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...ing-on-descent-on-stage-10-of-vuelta-a-espana

 

[Oldermanish]

yes.

but everything changes, all tactics change, if you have a TT.

of course remco would have to gain seconds at least (no sure thing), but a stage race that never provides that as one of the tests of the GC contestants is a weakened stage race.

bring on the giro. tactics will likely be wholly different should remco gain an advantage in the ITTs.

if he does not, then rog is simply better all around, no argument from me.

I totally agree and benefitted from TT's in every stage race contested; the hillier or windier the better. The challenge after getting time was to preserve the advantage which changes the actual strengths you may have in other areas, like climbing. When it became important to gain more time it requires discipline as much as power since no one would be surprised when an attack came. Normally friendly terrain can become tense because a leader is either expected to defend or attack and you have NO Friends. To your point; I never lost a multiple stage event when the TT came late enough it didn't require tons of energy to defend.
That devil is still in the details and the team becomes a prime factor at key times.

 

[Oldermanish]

You just need to know one thing. For the beliebers of remco, when he wins it's like national holiday, and when he loses, they can find 386543 excuses/justifications for the fact that he lost. Some live in a fantasy world and they even blame the DS of quick step that was in the car.
They can't accept that sometimes, other riders can be more strong than remco. That's life.
On this last week they were always taking credit of roglic, and minimize his wins. The narrative that they want to show, is that roglic just won because of remco mistakes.
Generally in cycling 99% of the times, the better rider wins. Roglic was the stronger.

Well that's the rub. Roglic crashing, bonking or doing something stupid has never been an opportunity to defend those situations IMO. Unless someone took him out he owned his fate from my perspective and deserved the respect when he recovered from it. Denigrating an opponent that won based on pure speculation or prejudice is an indication you don't know the sport. Rivals can lose their cool in a race but seldom would say they blame someone else for their lack of success. Why we'd do it as armchair analysts is even less worthwhile. That's why the sport is so cool; it is very unforgiving in so many ways and difficult to attain success. I'd guess that 90% of the pros we follow never win a major race or any at all.

 

[Extinction]

Riders generally calculate the costs versus the risks. That’s why the team strategizes, develops plans, and gives live direction. It is not just Primoz that acts logically to try to win races. Remco has to attack from farther out because (at least until recently) he cannot generally win fast finishes from small groups. Roglic, however, can. They both play to their strengths. Also, Roglic has attacked many times, but she’s also so good at ITTs and finishing fast that he is almost always in the position of power defending a lead. But, of course, when he isn’t in the lead and he attacks, it doesn’t count for some because “he needed to.”

Here is an example of an attack from farther out: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...ing-on-descent-on-stage-10-of-vuelta-a-espana

I'm not talking about when he's on the back leg and is forced to attack, rather the numerous occassions when he's not forced to sit on the wheel and could actually take the initiative, like anyone else, but choses not to. This by definition is called wheelsucking.

Hence if he can play that game, then an adversary like Remco should do likewise. In other words, don't allow Roglic to control the situation by wheelsucking. Stop riding. It doesn't matter if he refuses to take up the pace, because he risks much to lose too. I bet if someone starts to slip away, you won't see him wheelsucking anymore. Make him come out of his corner and play his chances sooner than he would have liked. Break his mischief. Give him a taste of his own medicine. He can't jump in the closing moments of a race like he has done so many times, when his advarsaries have worn themselves down with him on the wheel, if he's not allowed to wheelsuck.

 

[bNator]

You conveniently forget about stage 3, when Roglic dropped by 2 secs at the finish. Sure, Remco then dropped by 6 secs at the end of stage 5, but for all intents and purposes that was his own fault for sprinting first and too soon. Roglic did try to drop Remco with two late attacks on stage 5, but couldn't any more than Remco could shed Primoz. Yet these late digs of Roglic were mostly to not look like a total wheelsucker, which he pretty much had displayed up to that point.

So I'd say it was a dead heat, with Roglic getting the win owing to his wheelsucking modus operandi

So it's on to the Giro for the rematch. The climbs in the Giro, however, especially in the last week, are another beast altogether. On the queen stages someone will get dropped I predict, for example on the Tre Cime di Lavaredo.

Regarding wheelsucking, I'm gonna give it another shot. You really shouldn't call a guy who refuses to be dropped a wheelsucker. I know it's become a coping mechanism for Remco fans but still - it looks like you guys are deliberately forgetting the laws of bike racing just to accomodate an agenda...

I agree they won't keep this stalemate for the entire Giro. Evetually, third week will expose the weaker of the two as it always does.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

You conveniently forget about stage 3, when Roglic dropped by 2 secs at the finish. Sure, Remco then dropped by 6 secs at the end of stage 5, but for all intents and purposes that was his own fault for sprinting first and too soon. Roglic did try to drop Remco with two late attacks on stage 5, but couldn't any more than Remco could shed Primoz. Yet these late digs of Roglic were mostly to not look like a total wheelsucker, which he pretty much had displayed up to that point.

So I'd say it was a dead heat, with Roglic getting the win owing to his wheelsucking modus operandi

So it's on to the Giro for the rematch. The climbs in the Giro, however, especially in the last week, are another beast altogether. On the queen stages someone will get dropped I predict, for example on the Tre Cime di Lavaredo.

I'd say you need to revise the definition of a dead heat: 6 seconds is more than 2, 43 bonus seconds is more than 41, and a total of positions of 32 is better than 40.


But it was close, and anyone who claims that they know how the Giro will turn out on the basis of this race is deluded, and almost certainly more directed by wish than evidence. Not everything there will be the same as here, and those changes will be a combination of relative advantages and disadvantages in each direction.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hn6sgdO15Nc


Almeida interview together with his Chinese babysitter

??? Chinese babysitter??

 

[Extinction]

I'd say you need to revise the definition of a dead heat: 6 seconds is more than 2, 43 bonus seconds is more than 41, and a total of positions of 32 is better than 40.


But it was close, and anyone who claims that they know how the Giro will turn out on the basis of this race is deluded, and almost certainly more directed by wish than evidence. Not everything there will be the same as here, and those changes will be a combination of relative advantages and disadvantages in each direction.

Firstly, I have no idea how the Giro will turn out, only it will be a different story as it's a GT and there are 3 TTs. And secondly I think Remco's 6 secs to Primoz's 2 had as much to do with Evenepoel's timing error than the forces on the battlefield that day.

Whatever the case, they were extremely evenly matched, so theoretically the one who has a higher ceiling to reach come the Giro, bar mishaps, should win the Corsa Rosa. But I have no idea who that is. In this sense, it's a shame Roglic is skipping Liege, because it could have given some further indication.

 

[Red Rick]

We're back to the ITTs again?

I'm hugely sceptical about Roglic beating Evenepoel in the flat ITTs, but I'm also reasonably optimistic about the gap being smaller than in the Vuelta last year.

 

[Extinction]

Regarding wheelsucking, I'm gonna give it another shot. You really shouldn't call a guy who refuses to be dropped a wheelsucker. I know it's become a coping mechanism for Remco fans but still - it looks like you guys are deliberately forgetting the laws of bike racing just to accomodate an agenda...

I agree they won't keep this stalemate for the entire Giro. Evetually, third week will expose the weaker of the two as it always does.

Whether or not you like the term, as I've said elsewhere, when you don't work, but could, it's called wheelsucking. It's not a coping mechanism, he just chooses to ride that way. It's his prerogative, but that doesn't change the definition of wheelsucking. This is why I argued that a rider like Remco, who at times is generous to a fault, should become cleverer next time when Primoz is on his wheel and won't drop. Because this plays right into Roglic's tactics.

Agreed otherwise on what you agree with me on, of course.

 

[noob]

??? Chinese babysitter??

This guy He always watches his riders in interviews in a very imposing kind of way. I cannot judge if he treat the riders as babies or criminals, but the ways he orchestrates the PR makes it look extremely authoritarian.

 

[Blanco]

Whether or not you like the term, as I've said elsewhere, when you don't work, but could, it's called wheelsucking. It's not a coping mechanism, he just chooses to ride that way. It's his prerogative, but that doesn't change the definition of wheelsucking. This is why I argued that a rider like Remco, who at times is generous to a fault, should become cleverer next time when Primoz is on his wheel and won't drop. Because this plays right into Roglic's tactics.

Agreed otherwise on what you agree with me on, of course.

So you're basically saying Roglic is way smarter then Evenepoel?
If I understood correctly.

 

[Red Rick]

So you're basically saying Roglic is way smarter then Evenepoel?
If I understood correctly.

Not really about being smart or not. I think it's a bit more about habits. Evenepoel has a habit of pulling even when riders don't cooperate with him. And he's pretty used to winning regardless against a lot of opposition, but a guy like Roglic who's world class himself will punish him for that mistake.

Roglic meanwhile didn't have to adapt from his natural riding style at all. So it's hardly big brain strategy by him, though I was fairly impressed by how calmly he managed it all, and his timing in uphill sprints this year has been incredible.

 

[Riek s]

So you're basically saying Roglic is way smarter then Evenepoel?
If I understood correctly.

Was there any doubt? Roglic loves to choose the wheels and loves to poker it out. Now he chose the correct wheel and knows how to play it. (Especially with Remco who style is to be a complete tool of Roglic style. Remco doesn't like to poker it, just want to race and battle for the win.)
It is not because people (and I) say they are not attracted by some of this riding in this stage race (this is a subjective choice) that we don't know the tactics or the choice behind it.
These are two completely different topics. (And that should have been very clear from the start of this whole thing, i'm still baffled that people are cyring/ignoring others over it.)



Edit: i don't like the what ifs. The difference between roglic and Remco was extremely small, every little change would have resulted in a completely different race dynamics. At best you can say where Remco can do better/could do better. But i doubt it would have affected the eventual outcome.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Not really about being smart or not. I think it's a bit more about habits. Evenepoel has a habit of pulling even when riders don't cooperate with him. And he's pretty used to winning regardless against a lot of opposition, but a guy like Roglic who's world class himself will punish him for that mistake.

Roglic meanwhile didn't have to adapt from his natural riding style at all. So it's hardly big brain strategy by him, though I was fairly impressed by how calmly he managed it all, and his timing in uphill sprints this year has been incredible.

Evenepoel does it for a reason - it works in many cases due to his aero characteristics (low CdA and reduced draft for those behind).

 

[theyoungest]

Evenepoel does it for a reason - it works in many cases due to his aero characteristics (low CdA and reduced draft for those behind).

Maybe, but in most of the races he won so far he also didn't have a Roglic, a Pogacar or a Van der Poel on his wheel. He's not simply going to drop them. Racing against the best of the best requires a little more than just brute force.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Maybe, but in most of the races he won so far he also didn't have a Roglic, a Pogacar or a Van der Poel on his wheel. He's not simply going to drop them. Racing against the best of the best requires a little more than just brute force.

I think by now he must have realized it's way more difficult to do against other phenoms. I'm not expecting him to drag Roglic on long flat sections at the Giro without a pull by the Slovenian (he may do it on steep sections though to tire out his opposition). If the Slovenian does decide to pull with Remco on aero sections he may find himself more tired at some point.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Did I read it correct that Remco was happy to have won the sprint with Roglic on the last stage? Did he not realise that Roglic didn't contest it?

 

[search]

Did I read it correct that Remco was happy to have won the sprint with Roglic on the last stage? Did he not realise that Roglic didn't contest it?

yeah, at least in the post stage interview, he hadn't noticed yet. Keeps talking about how he won by timing his sprint perfectly, meaning Roglic was unable to react.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F6-E-dBKj8

 

[Gargamel35]

yeah, at least in the post stage interview, he hadn't noticed yet. Keeps talking about how he won by timing his sprint perfectly, meaning Roglic was unable to react.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F6-E-dBKj8

Lie to me, baby!

 

[Extinction]

So you're basically saying Roglic is way smarter then Evenepoel?
If I understood correctly.

No, just more sly and Remco should learn from it.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Either way, today Soler did nothing wrong, and UAE had no reason to chase him.
That doesn't mean he didn't mess up in previous stages. And i also wouldn't want him as a teammate when going for GC.

You can't say that without further context. Stage racing has an internal history. Each stage builds on the previous one.
UAE had all the reasons not for chasing Soler, but for keeping Almeida in 3rd has he is building both form and confidence for their designated Giro podium rider. Having a team mate do that is mind boggling to say the least. It shows UAE either does not control Soler or does not have its priorities straight.

Soler is just a Peter Pan that one time won Tour de le Avenir and grew up thinking he was the next big thing. He isn't and he will never be, but races like he owns loyalty to no one. That's why he is given to this mindless, dumb racing tantrums that no one understands.

 

[Squire]

Soler is just a Peter Pan that one time won Tour de le Avenir and grew up thinking he was the next big thing. He isn't and he will never be, but races like he owns loyalty to no one. That's why he is given to this mindless, dumb racing tantrums that no one understands.

Just like with Gadret or Hoogerland, characters like that make races more entertaining to watch. Please never change, Soler!

 

[Elos Anjos]

Just like with Gadret or Hoogerland, characters like that make races more entertaining to watch. Please never change, Soler!

Yes, it's entertaining
But then you get the little italian funny guy (Ilmaestro99 ) or others attempting to explain the impossible.