Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023, March 20-26

[noob]

What's up with my phone adding space into every reply and quote posts while I can write an essay otherwise, as long as I write it without replies or quotes?!

 

[nightowl]

Is this because of the word wheelsucker?

The Art of Wheelsucking

Up to 90% of a cyclist’s energy is used to push air out of the way but it is possible to halve the effort by wheelsucking. I have read somewhere that wheelsucking allows the wheelsucker to pe…

kchwheelsuckers.wordpress.com

Amongst other things, yes. Regardless of what that link says, pretty much every cycling fan I’ve met uses the term “wheelsucker” as an insult for someone they think is riding in a cowardly and/or unsportsmanlike manner by refusing to do their share of the work. Maybe you don’t use it in that way, in which case it would be a misunderstanding, but there’s many more than just you saying that and I find it hard to believe that no one is using it that way - I responded to your comment but didn’t intend on singling you out as such!

And it’s not just that, as I said before it’s the insulting of other fans for being boring, not being real fans of cycling, etc. that annoys people. Again, speaking in general not trying to single you out

 

[Tonton]

Maybe good for him but not necessarily for viewers.

And that was my point...why would he care? Fans don't pay the bills. And when you win, you get fans too...at least as long as you win...

 

[Lequack]

Some memes

 

[bNator]

Maybe good for him but not necessarily for viewers. It's been discussed and i think that "wheelsucking" is ok in certain situations, but it is also a very unappealing and negative way of riding in other situations. Not riding because you have a teammate up the road, not riding because your leader is behind and is trying to come back, not riding because you simply are on the limit, not riding because you know the other rider is stronger/faster in the upcoming climb or sprint... that's all fine.


His excessive smiling has made his face wrinkly.

Ok yes - but what about not riding when there’s no benefit in riding?

As per my understanding you have tactical riding and wheelsucking. I would define wheelsucking as an act of deliberately refusing to work for the common interest (e.g. success in breakaway) and instead of letting the strength of a rider decide the outcome, trying to gain advantage by doing less than your share of work.

Today or yesterday, that was not the case. The two riders had very different goals/interests - we could say they were mutually exclusive. While Remco tried to drop Roglic and/or win the stage, Roglic tried to prevent Remco from dropping him and defend his lead. That is not wheelsucking in my opinion.

P.S. Roglič often riding this way is probably more due to the fact he is more often than not the defending leader of the race and not beacuse he was a "negative rider". Most riders in Roglič's shoes ride in the same way as he does. Some don't. But it does require a great deal of confidence knowing you are better than your rival to keep attacking when you don't have to and risk your GC position for panache. Roglič clearly doesn't have that confidence at the moment. And rightfully so - he is not better than Remco currently and it could backlash spectacularly which many in this thread would appreciate, I'm sure.

 

[Tonton]

Ok, Roglic is the Messaih I guess, for he is certainly Remco's idol!

PS: Leonardo da Vinci said it's not enough to equal the master, but you must surpass him!

I thought that it was Aru who said that. But he couldn't.

 

[Nick2413]

Just watched the fiasco. Obviously Roglic did the right thing. The right thing for the athletes competing for the win is not always the right thing for the fans.

That said, Remco has reason to be frustrated - he is the stronger rider currently but is losing even on stages where he’s the strongest, because of drafting and bonus seconds.

This isn’t a knock on Roglic, but it is a reality that cycling is not always about who is the fastest in a vacuum. Remco could probably climb 20 seconds faster with no drafting, but he loses 4-10 seconds on bonuses because he doesn’t have the punch.

On the flipside, the beauty of this sport is that almost any skillset can be leveraged with the right tactics and team. Remco will have TTs in the Giro, and if he can ever break free or find a weak moment in Roglic he will be able to cash in big time. If other opponents have very strong climbing performances Remco will also benefit (based on current climbing levels at least). These things go both ways. If Roglic is ever on the back foot he will have to be the one attacking and pushing the pace, and that could benefit Remco tremendously.

I do think Remco is the kind of rider that would have ridden today even if in the lead, and as a fan I love it about him, but that doesn’t mean it’s always the right thing. Cycling is a sport with a lot of honor and subtlety, and I think some riders put more into that, but when you need to close the deal it’s a big gamble.

 

[Riek s]

Amongst other things, yes. Regardless of what that link says, pretty much every cycling fan I’ve met uses the term “wheelsucker” as an insult for someone they think is riding in a cowardly and/or unsportsmanlike manner by refusing to do their share of the work. Maybe you don’t use it in that way, in which case it would be a misunderstanding, but there’s many more than just you saying that and I find it hard to believe that no one is using it that way - I responded to your comment but didn’t intend on singling you out as such!

And it’s not just that, as I said before it’s the insulting of other fans for being boring, not being real fans of cycling, etc. that annoys people. Again, speaking in general not trying to single you out

Ow its not an insult, you can own 'wheelsucking'. Sometimes its smart riding, sometimes its to keep up, or because you are dead. I gave a list about what i understood under wheelsucker a few dozen pages ago. It is a word also used in a jokingly manner for someone who sits on the wheel all time. Hence the butt jokes.

I see bNator makes a distinction regarding the reason while doing the same thing, to me thats the same for example. Its the act of riding in the wheel profiting from the suckee. That is the whole goal of staying in the wheel.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

I think Pogacar is a far more entertaining rider and you never see him having a strop if things dont go his way

Did you watch the Ronde last year?

 

[Carols]

What's up with my phone adding space into every reply and quote posts while I can write an essay otherwise, as long as I write it without replies or quotes?!

Not just the phone, I've tried it on tablet and laptop. Same thing!

 

[nightowl]

Ow its not an insult, you can own 'wheelsucking'. Sometimes its smart riding, sometimes its to keep up, or because you are dead. I gave a list about what i understood under wheelsucker a few dozen pages ago. It is a word also used in a jokingly manner for someone who sits on the wheel all time. Hence the butt jokes.

I see bNator makes a distinction regarding the reason while doing the same thing, to me thats the same for example. Its the act of riding in the wheel profiting from the suckee. That is the whole goal of staying in the wheel.

That’s fine if you don’t see the term that way. I am warning you, though, that you’re very much in the minority on that front so when you call someone a wheelsucker people wil very much read that as an insult.

And I completely agree, there’s plenty of valid reasons to sit on someone’s wheel and not pull, wether it’s because you physically can’t or because it would be stupid tactically to do so.

I don’t know I’d say it’s always about profiting from the other rider, though. For example, Roglic wasn’t in Remco’s wheel today trying to get a free ride, he was just covering Remco’s attack and defending his GC lead. If it was a one-day race, and Roglic refused to pull and then out-sprinted Remco at the end, for example, then he absolutely would’ve been profiting off Remco’s work, and he certainly would’ve been what I would describe as a wheelsucker.

Unless you mean profiting purely from a watts/effort perspective and not about the race situation at all. To which I’d agree, and don’t see anything wrong with as after all that’s just how physics work

 

[Berniece]

I love it because my dad rode pro and has a plaque on the USA cycling Hall of Fame. I was raised on it and when it's the SMART thing to do to follow, you follow. When it's smart to attack, you attack. Daddy taught me that. It's a shame your dad wasn't a cyclist maybe you'd appreciate the sport more and understand how to be successful at it.

First of all let’s leave family out of it. You don’t know me.

Secondly, I never said it wasn’t the smart thing, I actually said multiple times I understood why Roglic did what he did. I’m saying he’s boring to watch and a potato because of it.

 

[Savant12]

So, the Giro is "Wheelsucker" vs "Little Whiny Boy".

 

[Elos Anjos]

Enjoying the forum meltdown with a glass of wine. And it's only March. Life is beautiful.

 

[bNator]

you didn't like the E3 either?

another stage win?

I think the benefit of 14 seconds instead of 10 (there's very few scenarios where this biggest advantage would be useful for his GC result) is much smaller than the loss in case it gets to 6 seconds instead of 10 (where Roglič needs to finish 3rd in a group bunch sprint to win for sure). I'd have to calculate all the scenarios to be sure but probably TJV did and they saw it was in their best interest to play it safe with 10.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Heading into record thread territory for this race, can't wait for the Giro showdown

Pages per thread
2023 75 (and counting)
2022 42
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2020 2
2019 22
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2012 (sum of all threads) 72
2011 33
2010 9

 

[Lequack]

Soler: "So then I attacked, so I could be of help to Almeida later, maybe"

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

And that was my point...why would he care? Fans don't pay the bills. And when you win, you get fans too...at least as long as you win...

Fans pay the bills. Ask any sponsor.

 

[Carols]

Alas, I have family obligations tomorrow and won't be able to join the forum fun. May the best man win and stand on the top step. Whoever finishes second has nothing to be ashamed of, they've both given their all to date!

 

[how yes no?]

I see cycling as a multi dimensional entertainment, not just a race of pure physical* power, but also a race of tactics, psychology, presenting the trophy cabinet, etc... and I enjoy all dimensions of it. Making the right tactical decision is part of the beauty, like watching a good chess match... making a tacticaly stupid decision just to have more action is overvalueing the action for me... I enjoy other movies beside action movies... usually even more... there is the story to comprehend and all that jazz. And I have to admit I often get the feeling that Remco races (and the cult acts) like he's above all that, while in reality usually lacking in the comprehension regard and paying the price for it.
And don't get me wrong I love the idea of the genious that can dominate with no regard to usual obstacles, but failed attempts are less gracious and that is the price one has to calculate with, when trying.

(* - and even this is a broad term, as there is the endurance, the punch, the recovery, the weather, the altitude...)

 

[how yes no?]

But I have to counter myself in the end... if Remco just wanted to give the fans the action with no regard to tactics regarding the GC, there was no reason for him to stop riding when Primož did not cooperate... there would be more action if he kept riding and then maybe Primož would jump him for the sprint and we would even have GC time changes etc... so much entertainment, right? But the fact is that Remco was playing the GC game just as much as Primož was and he was frustrated with the cards he was dealt today, not being able to shake Primož and Remco's only hope being that Primož plays it stupid and gives him better cards.
So Remco was not stupid, just frustrated with the situation that he correctly understood.
And the fans are not stupid either, just looking for the "excuse" that eases the pain of the wound the best.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Credit:
@fette.cc

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

What's up with my phone adding space into every reply and quote posts while I can write an essay otherwise, as long as I write it without replies or quotes?!

Yeah man, what's up with that?! Fking Roglic.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Has Remco been getting advice from Cancellara? This is all straight out of the Fabian playbook. Believe you're stronger than everyone else, demonstrate that you're stronger than everyone else, still get mad when no one wants to work with you.

 

[yaco]

Carols, Blanco because the moment Remco attacks and can't drop Roglic, he should stop. use his brains. ergo --> this stage would have become nothing fun.

Previous climb stage? same story Remo pulls to long, not using brains. should have stopped
The Vallter stage? same thing, Remco pacing way to long should not have attacked and just wait for the final km.

In all these cases, its about using brains to wait for the sprint and do as little as possible. This is the fancrush of the supporters of Roglic.

The others who fancrushing (like me) enjoy people going for the win. try things, play around. If it doesn't work it you are called stupid, if it works out its called brilliance. But at least i enjoyed/went up in the stage.


While some are saying you race to win, that is true in some form. But in fact sports is a play used to entertain people. The sponsorship are because people watch a sport because it is entertaining.
Just imagine if MSR without any climb at the end, just 300km and a sprint. People are now already skipping the first 275km

You go on about wheelsucking BUT yet Remco sits in the peleton, never putting his nose in the wind until the final climb - You really don't understand cycling.