Vuelta a España 2011

[l.Harm]

Andy Schleck isn't much better than Menchov. Cadel Evans beat him this year, and GT-wise he's pretty much the same type of rider. On more or less the same level.

Last year Andy was definitely stronger than Menchov, but this year... I doubt it. That's why it's too bad Menchov wasn't invited in favour of the great Jerome Coppel.

I doubt Menchov would follow Evans on the Galibier. I'm pretty certain Schleck is a (much) better climber than Menchov. Contador and Schleck are the best climbers of the peloton.

Speaking of "nonsense" If, as you said, He does not need to change, why are you suggesting he needs to train?. Let him continue to be what he is now. He should be satisfied a second place at best once in while, and at the back of the leaders group the rest of the year, no?. That would be consistant with what He has done and no need to change that. It also seems often that Schleck fail to win int the mountains the time he need to make up for his deficits in the ITT. Had be been able to take over 2 minutes on Cadel in the mountains, his ITT performance would not matter. As a climber , Andy lost his 2011 tour by a failing to perform adequately in the mountains, especially in Alpes d'huez and Luz. He does need to change his climbing if he want to win someday

Evans changed as a person, I mean Schleck doesn't have to change like that because his character isn't his problem, but his time trial.

Schleck was great in the mountains this year, Evans just did an amazing job to follow him almost everywhere. On a Dutch forum almost everybody agreed Schleck was the best climber this Tour de France.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I doubt Menchov would follow Evans on the Galibier. I'm pretty certain Schleck is a (much) better climber than Menchov. Contador and Schleck are the best climbers of the peloton.



Evans changed as a person, I mean Schleck doesn't have to change like that because his character isn't his problem, but his time trial.

Schleck was great in the mountains this year, Evans just did a amazing job to follow him almost everywhere. On a Dutch forum almost everybody agreed Schleck was the best climber this Tour de France.

please. menchov has never been any worse then evans on the climbs. overall as a rider maybe. But not in the high mountains.

Schleck looked worse this year then last. I certainly think he screwed his prep at some point. I get the feeling andy isn't quite dedicated to the sport like he should be.

 

[l.Harm]

I think Evans climbed this year better than other years, actually i'm sure. We don't know Menchov would follow him this year, we simply can't know. But I think he wouldn't.

 

[El Pistolero]

I think Evans climbed this year better than other years, actually i'm sure. We don't know Menchov would follow him this year, we simply can't know. But I think he wouldn't.

Evans climbed faster in 2007. Jelle Vanendert for example was almost 2 minutes slower than Contador's time on Plateau de Beille in 2007. Cuddles bonked there, but still managed to climb around the same speed as Jelle in 2007.

 

[staubsauger]

I doubt Menchov would follow Evans on the Galibier. I'm pretty certain Schleck is a (much) better climber than Menchov. Contador and Schleck are the best climbers of the peloton.



Evans changed as a person, I mean Schleck doesn't have to change like that because his character isn't his problem, but his time trial.

Schleck was great in the mountains this year, Evans just did an amazing job to follow him almost everywhere. On a Dutch forum almost everybody agreed Schleck was the best climber this Tour de France.

simoni tt's always have been desastrous. cunego lost abot 3 or 4 minutes against popovych 2004. both are gt winners. schleck isn't......

till now, he just don't have it.

he could take time on a guy like mentsjov or evans if a guy like contador is permanently forcing attacks that kill those guys. he couldn't force such attacks, except of his stage win in this years tdf. that's why he didn't take enough time on evans in the pyrenees and that's why he lost yellow in the tt.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I think Evans climbed this year better than other years, actually i'm sure. We don't know Menchov would follow him this year, we simply can't know. But I think he wouldn't.

look at some of the other names who lost not much time compared to other years. I think no team took control in the mountains (leopard tried but feel short every stage except 18, where they pulled off an impressive tactical move.) which contributed to a some what easier race in the mountains.

I mean samu was more or less one of the best in the mountains. Beat evans 3 out of 4 times, last year he couldn't touch schleck.

Peter Velits, De gendt were there at the same time on D'Heuz

But yeah, I am sure it wasn't as it appeared.

If tommy and cunego can more or less hold onto evans on the Galibier, a top form menchov would also. Same goes for Port de Bellie. Peraud, Tommy V etc.

Cadel evans didn't really climb better then previous years, look at the mountain stage results. He did however not crack or have a bad day, it was more about consistency in evans case.
Anyway it is clear schleck really failed to bring it in france. he was more convincing in 09 and 10.

what you are suggesting indicates a huge amount of riders made a dramatic climbing improvement, rather then schleck and AC (he rode giro tho) not being as good as last year.

edit: also what el pickle says.

 

[l.Harm]

simoni tt's always have been desastrous. cunego lost abot 3 or 4 minutes against popovych 2004. both are gt winners. schleck isn't......

till now, he just don't have it.

Yes, in the Giro. In the Giro that's possible, in the Tour almost impossible.

he could take time on a guy like mentsjov or evans if a guy like contador is permanently forcing attacks that kill those guys. he couldn't force such attacks, except of his stage win in this years tdf. that's why he didn't take enough time on evans in the pyrenees and that's why he lost yellow in the tt.

Normally he can. This year Evans just was good as hell. And Schleck can attack, he doesn't have that punch like Contador but he's the only one who's close to that.

And Schleck dropped Basso, I think he's more comparable to Menchov this year than Evans.

 

[just some guy]

I think ur talking nonsense.

Before Menchov won a GT nobody thought he could win it and Schleck is much better than him (except time trial). Especially in the Giro and Vuelta where are more climbs than in TdF Schleck has a lot more chance to win it. You're talking about 'something special', very vague imo. Evans had to change to become a champion, Schleck doesn't need to change, he only has to train his f.ckin time trial to beat Evans and especially Contador in the future.

Andy needs to work a little on his ITT but really it was not that bad 17th or something.

What he needs is to learn how to win and that only comes from having a certain personality or training.

He needs to ride week long stage races and one day classics and semi classics to ride to win.

 

[staubsauger]

Yes, in the Giro. In the Giro that's possible, in the Tour almost impossible.



Normally he can. This year Evans just was good as hell. And Schleck can attack, he doesn't have that punch like Contador but he's the only one who's close to that.

And Schleck dropped Basso, I think he's more comparable to Menchov this year than Evans.

oh come on even rob gesink could drop a basso on top level (i'm not speaking about robot basso 2006) as we've seen in la vuelta. and basso was far away from his past ban top level from la vuelta 09 or giro 10. his form was weaker than in giro 09 and liquigas wasn't as strong as in last years giro.


sanchez has a better punch than schleck. ricco, too. same with di luca in his gt years. igor anton and rodrieguez also. maybe even scarponi....

 

[l.Harm]

look at some of the other names who lost not much time compared to other years. I think no team took control in the mountains (leopard tried but feel short every stage except 18, where they pulled off an impressive tactical move.) which contributed to a some what easier race in the mountains.

I mean samu was more or less one of the best in the mountains. Beat evans 3 out of 4 times, last year he couldn't touch schleck.

Peter Velits, De gendt were there at the same time on D'Heuz

But yeah, I am sure it wasn't as it appeared.

If tommy and cunego can more or less hold onto evans on the Galibier, a top form menchov would also. Same goes for Port de Bellie. Peraud, Tommy V etc.

Cadel evans didn't really climb better then previous years, look at the mountain stage results. He did however not crack or have a bad day, it was more about consistency in evans case.
Anyway it is clear schleck really failed to bring it in france. he was more convincing in 09 and 10.

what you are suggesting indicates a huge amount of riders made a dramatic climbing improvement, rather then schleck and AC (he rode giro tho) not being as good as last year.

edit: also what el pickle says.

Mm i don't agree. Evans did an amazing job at Galibier. He didn't attack but Samuel Sanchez (2'17), Contador, Vanendert (both 2'35) and Cunego (18 sec) couldn't follow. I don't think Evans could do that last year or in 2007/2008.

Alpe d'Heuz was the day after Schlecks monster solo. He wasn't riding on his top that day and Evans didn't have to do anything. If Evans made some tempo there Velits and De Gendt wouldn't be in the same time.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I doubt Menchov would follow Evans on the Galibier. I'm pretty certain Schleck is a (much) better climber than Menchov. Contador and Schleck are the best climbers of the peloton.



Evans changed as a person, I mean Schleck doesn't have to change like that because his character isn't his problem, but his time trial.

Schleck was great in the mountains this year, Evans just did an amazing job to follow him almost everywhere. On a Dutch forum almost everybody agreed Schleck was the best climber this Tour de France.

his character is the reason why his itt sucks so much

 

[l.Harm]

oh come on even rob gesink could drop a basso on top level (i'm not speaking about robot basso 2006) as we've seen in la vuelta. and basso was far away from his past ban top level from la vuelta 09 or giro 10. his form was weaker than in giro 09 and liquigas wasn't as strong as in last years giro.


sanchez has a better punch than schleck. ricco, too. same with di luca in his gt years. igor anton and rodrieguez also. maybe even scarponi....

And even Basso wins the Giro in 2010...

Ok you're maybe partially right at this point but the other point I made you don't react on

 

[theyoungest]

I doubt Menchov would follow Evans on the Galibier. I'm pretty certain Schleck is a (much) better climber than Menchov. Contador and Schleck are the best climbers of the peloton.

This is token wisdom, but we've all seen that barring one bad day, Contador is way ahead of Andy Schleck. I would agree with you if we're talking about last year, but Andy has simply taken a step back. He's not even stronger uphill than his brother Fränk right now.

Menchov had trouble in his preparation for the Giro (crash, illness), Andy had none of the sort in his Tour prep. A fit Menchov would definitely have been in the Schleck brothers - Evans category. Hell, even Thomas Voeckler was, for most of the stages!

On a Dutch forum almost everybody agreed Schleck was the best climber this Tour de France.

Who cares?

 

[l.Harm]

That's why I thought everybody thinks that, but apparently I'm wrong.

And I didn't see this TdF Contador 'way ahead' of Schleck.

 

[theyoungest]

That's why I thought everybody thinks that, but apparently I'm wrong.

And I didn't see this TdF Contador 'way ahead' of Schleck.

Contador flew away whenever he pleased, except for that one bad day, like I said.

 

[Parrulo]

Contador flew away whenever he pleased, except for that one bad day, like I said.

and he did that with the giro on his legs and one injured knee.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

and he did that with the giro on his legs and one injured knee.

and on galibier he had a hunger flat

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Menchov is as good a climber as Evans when both are on form.

But Menchov's form is much more transient, and he's less gritty. A not-on-peak-form Evans will wrestle his way up; a not on peak form Menchov will lose minutes. Menchov showed in the 2009 Giro that he's a truly world class climber, and on a long, difficult ITT parcours he can crush most of his GC opposition.

Evans rode a phenomenal ITT in Grénoble, the first time in several years that he's shown the same TT greatness he was renowned for earlier in his career. I think that Evans would have beaten Menchov in the Tour. Evans was spectacularly good. But an absolutely peak Menchov could have matched him for performance in my mind, certainly in the high mountains and likely come pretty close in the TT too (remember, I'm talking about absolutely peak-of-his-powers Menchov, and the TT route suited him) - but Menchov would most certainly have lost time in week 1; even if he hadn't got involved in crashes (which is of course one of his specialities) he would almost certainly have found a way to lose time in the short, sharp uphills which are very much Evans' domain and very much NOT Menchov's.

However, the chances of Menchov turning up to the Tour in absolutely peak form were slim even if GEOX had been invited.

 

[just some guy]

Menchov is as good a climber as Evans when both are on form.

But Menchov's form is much more transient, and he's less gritty. A not-on-peak-form Evans will wrestle his way up; a not on peak form Menchov will lose minutes. Menchov showed in the 2009 Giro that he's a truly world class climber, and on a long, difficult ITT parcours he can crush most of his GC opposition.

Evans rode a phenomenal ITT in Grénoble, the first time in several years that he's shown the same TT greatness he was renowned for earlier in his career. I think that Evans would have beaten Menchov in the Tour. Evans was spectacularly good. But an absolutely peak Menchov could have matched him for performance in my mind, certainly in the high mountains and likely come pretty close in the TT too (remember, I'm talking about absolutely peak-of-his-powers Menchov, and the TT route suited him) - but Menchov would most certainly have lost time in week 1; even if he hadn't got involved in crashes (which is of course one of his specialities) he would almost certainly have found a way to lose time in the short, sharp uphills which are very much Evans' domain and very much NOT Menchov's.

However, the chances of Menchov turning up to the Tour in absolutely peak form were slim even if GEOX had been invited.

I have a feeling that the Days of Denis in Peak form maybe behind us.

Just a feeling .... but

 

[l.Harm]

Contador flew away whenever he pleased, except for that one bad day, like I said.

Schleck has won the Tour if you skip the time trial. lol.

@Libertine Seguros, true.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Menchov is as good a climber as Evans when both are on form.

But Menchov's form is much more transient, and he's less gritty. A not-on-peak-form Evans will wrestle his way up; a not on peak form Menchov will lose minutes. Menchov showed in the 2009 Giro that he's a truly world class climber, and on a long, difficult ITT parcours he can crush most of his GC opposition.

Evans rode a phenomenal ITT in Grénoble, the first time in several years that he's shown the same TT greatness he was renowned for earlier in his career. I think that Evans would have beaten Menchov in the Tour. Evans was spectacularly good. But an absolutely peak Menchov could have matched him for performance in my mind, certainly in the high mountains and likely come pretty close in the TT too (remember, I'm talking about absolutely peak-of-his-powers Menchov, and the TT route suited him) - but Menchov would most certainly have lost time in week 1; even if he hadn't got involved in crashes (which is of course one of his specialities) he would almost certainly have found a way to lose time in the short, sharp uphills which are very much Evans' domain and very much NOT Menchov's.

However, the chances of Menchov turning up to the Tour in absolutely peak form were slim even if GEOX had been invited.

I agree with most of the text, but not this one. Menchov followed di Luca(!!!) on sharp uphill finishes in 2009 Giro.

 

[Winterfold]

Evan's relative improvement came as a result of a number of things IMO

Played his own game at all times.
No supercharged attacks from the grimpeurs.
No really strong team in the mountains*.
Kept fed and watered properly.
I know it should not be discussed but clearly a factor - Major dopers doping less, or getting less benefit from doping - w/kg and/or ascent times significantly decreased - by Tour winning margins.
Had a good idea what he could do in the final TT, and I suspect, kept a bit up his sleeve when he did that.

I also think he would have taken mental strength from the Dauphine and watching Wiggins set a high tempo and hold his nerve and diesel his way to the overall against pure climbers.

Not sure how this will work for Wiggins in the Vuelta though. horrible gradients and doubt he will have the A team or if they will be on such stellar form.

*EBH and GT would have done some serious damage IMO - on the other 2 classy stage wins...

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Not sure how this will work for Wiggins in the Vuelta though. horrible gradients and doubt he will have the A team or if they will be on such stellar form.

.

Doubt he'll be targetting GC. He'll most likely try to win the ITT in the middle of the race and disappear before Madrid to focus in the WC ITT, where he's never picked up a medal, and really ought to be able to.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Schleck has won the Tour if you skip the time trial. lol.

@Libertine Seguros, true.

Yes and Cavendish would have won if you skip the mountain stages, the mid-mountain stages and the time trial

Are you serious? Come on.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I have a feeling that the Days of Denis in Peak form maybe behind us.

Just a feeling .... but

Quite possible. But at the same time, I think a lot of us would have said the same thing about Evans a month ago...

I certainly thought that his transition into a smart rider capable of getting the wins had come just too late for his physical peak, and that his best chance to win the Tour had passed in 2008. So maybe Menchov has passed his peak, but never say never.