Vuelta a España 2011

[Mellow Velo]

I doubt Gibo would have won on Angliru if the Spanish fans were as tasteless as some of the Italian tifosi.

Gibo wasn't a threat on the GC, so there was nothing at steak.
The Tifosi had a definite beef with Berto.

My two pence worth: The Zoncolan is harder for longer, but the Angliru definitely has the hardest sectors. The further up you go, the more evil it gets.
(until it goes downhill, of course)
Usually suffers with fairly foul weather, too.

 

[Winterfold]

Clearly armchair fans have no role in doping in cycling

For next year's Giro maybe we should add some lions and tigers to the steepest sections to spice things up a bit? I think it's getting a bit easy and we need more impossible hardness to kickstart the action.

Has anyone here ever ridden up a climb and thought 'Im glad I got that easy 15% section out of the way - now we can look forward to the 20% bit'? Has any cyclist ever thought that?

How many hairpins are there on the Zoncolan compared to Angliru and what kind of hairpins are they? steep ones or flat ones? they hide a multitude of gradient sins and can be a blessing or a curse.

 

[The Hitch]

But the Angliru definitely has the hardest sectors.

Where does this idea come from?

Cant be from the profiles.

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp?Climbprofile=Monte-Zoncolan&MountainID=36

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp?Climbprofile=Monte-Zoncolan&MountainID=36

 

[nvpacchi]

Yeah Gibo won Angliru stage from a breakaway, while other GC contenders fought it out behind him.

FWIW, that stretch of 1.9% grade right in the middle of the Angliru is the killer for me. Personally I think when your HeartRate is given the chance to fall to a more stable level, only to have it rise again almost immediately, is worse than maintaining a high (but constant) HeartRate up a climb.

 

[nvpacchi]

Where does this idea come from?

Cant be from the profiles.

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp?Climbprofile=Monte-Zoncolan&MountainID=36

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp?Climbprofile=Monte-Zoncolan&MountainID=36

Angliru's profile is only given in kilometer intervals. Since Zoncolan's intervals vary in length they will naturally exhibit higher %grades. I'm sure if Angliru's intervals were broken down to 250m they would be just as worse (or worse) than Zoncolan's.

 

[icefire]

Clearly armchair fans have no role in doping in cycling

For next year's Giro maybe we should add some lions and tigers to the steepest sections to spice things up a bit? I think it's getting a bit easy and we need more impossible hardness to kickstart the action.

Has anyone here ever ridden up a climb and thought 'Im glad I got that easy 15% section out of the way - now we can look forward to the 20% bit'? Has any cyclist ever thought that?

How many hairpins are there on the Zoncolan compared to Angliru and what kind of hairpins are they? steep ones or flat ones? they hide a multitude of gradient sins and can be a blessing or a curse.

Could you please let us know what gradients and hairpins and nasty wheather Ben Johnson had to stand at the Seoul Olympics 100m final? Wait. Open a thread to discuss it in the clinic, please.

 

[El Pistolero]

Why would you assume Angliru is warmer? Even if it is, it wouldn't be hot enough to actually make it harder. It's Asturias. It rains more often than not, and the temperature is mild even in summer.

Doesn't really seem warm at Zoncolan. But rain makes for an even harder climb I guess. Didn't Heras won on Angliru in rainy conditions?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Where does this idea come from?

Cant be from the profiles.

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp?Climbprofile=Monte-Zoncolan&MountainID=36

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp?Climbprofile=Monte-Zoncolan&MountainID=36

From watching the likes of Robert Heras, dropping all and sundry, yet coming to a virtual stand still, at a couple of points towards the top of the Angliru. These sections are however, relatively short and therefore do not feature on CBB profiles.

Note I did not say that the Spanish climb is harder than the Italian one.
Personally, I don't wish to try and split hairs between a pair of climbs that both have given car engines a seizure.
To me, they are incomparable, since aside from heavy gradient, they have very little in common.

 

[The Hitch]

Angliru's profile is only given in kilometer intervals. Since Zoncolan's intervals vary in length they will naturally exhibit higher %grades. I'm sure if Angliru's intervals were broken down to 250m they would be just as worse (or worse) than Zoncolan's.

No. As i have pointed out Zoncolans maximum gradient is signifcantly greater than Angirilus and its hardest kilometer is also harder than Angirilus.

Those arent figures that come from the km by km profile.

I posted the profile to challenege the idea that Angirilu has harder sectors, when they both have several km of over 13%.

Note I did not say that the Spanish climb is harder than the Italian one.

No you said "But the Angliru definitely has the hardest sectors."

And it doesnt. Zoncolans hardest sectors are steeper and longer than Angirilus. As was pointed out eariler - hardest sectors.

6.5 km at 13% (angirilu) vs 6km at 14.9% - (Zoncolan)

And if you break it into 200m sections Zoncolan has several of 18 and 19% and even 20%. Something Angirilu is not going to beat considering its max gradient is 23.

 

[roundabout]

Gah, I wish it was Saturday already.

 

[Swede1]

wiggins is saying hes in really good shape. maybe podium

 

[Sylvester]

Wiggins won't even make the top 10, I guess. Way too much climbing in this Vuelta for him, and he probably won't fight for a 9th place. We need a GT with two TTs soon, last year's routes have been designed exclusively for the climbers.

 

[LaFleur]

Wiggins won't even make the top 10, I guess. Way too much climbing in this Vuelta for him, and he probably won't fight for a 9th place. We need a GT with two TTs soon, last year's routes have been designed exclusively for the climbers.

I bet you're a kind of guy who predicted Evans out of the top 10 this TdF aswell?

 

[MartinGT]

Looking forward to this

Oh and Sylvester it does have 2 TT?

 

[Señor_Contador]

Don't mean to intrude in the Zoncolan vs. L'Angliru competition here but... It has been said, by Gilberto Simoni, someone who has done both climbs, that the Zoncolan is harder than the L'Angliru. Yet the only climb I've seen Gilberto really suffer, and I mean SUFFER, ride sideways and literally snake his way up the mountain is on the L'Angliru, at the very end of the La Cueña de les Cabres section.

He has never experienced those problems on the Zoncolan.

Just a thought.

 

[Descender]

nah Zoncolan Ovaro is worse. You get steep km in Zoncolan too, just not if you start counting kilometers from 0. Forget 17, one 1000m section between 6km and 8km on Zoncolan just misses 20%

You say 6.5km at 13% is tougher than 10k at 12%.

But Zoncolans middle section is 5km at 15.3%. The next km is 13% meaning 6km at 14.9 % compared to Angilirus 6.5km at 13%


I also personally think its worse having the supertough gradients at the beginning and middle.

Because that way the riders go into the "easier" 9% sections of Zoncolan with absolutely no momentum, the steeper sections already having done the damage,

On Angry Lu on the other hand the pack can go quite fast up the relatively flat by comparison first half, letting fireworks only start towards the end of the climb.

Of course Angiliru loses on almost every statistical comparison. It has a lower average gradient - 9.9 vs 11.9. A lower maximum gradient - 23% vs 26.5% and less kilometers in 10%+ gradients - 6 vs 8. Angiliru is longer however by almost 2km and hence has a higher alltitude gain, but only just 1248 vs 1210, and Zoncolan does take place at a higher alltitude

Where do you get your numbers from? I very much doubt Zoncolan has a full km at 20% and it most certainly does not have a higher maximum gradient than Angliru.

 

[The Hitch]

Where do you get your numbers from? I very much doubt Zoncolan has a full km at 20% and it most certainly does not have a higher maximum gradient than Angliru.

Oops. I made a mistake with the maximum gradient, you are right about that but the km at 20% comes from here

http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Monte-Zoncolan&qryMountainID=36

The Zoncolan has a kilometer of nearly 20%

 

[Mellow Velo]

Don't mean to intrude in the Zoncolan vs. L'Angliru competition here but... It has been said, by Gilberto Simoni, someone who has done both climbs, that the Zoncolan is harder than the L'Angliru. Yet the only climb I've seen Gilberto really suffer, and I mean SUFFER, ride sideways and literally snake his way up the mountain is on the L'Angliru, at the very end of the La Cueña de les Cabres section.

He has never experienced those problems on the Zoncolan.

Just a thought.

Exactly what I have been saying........or at least trying to.

The Zoncolan has a 250 metre section of 20% average.

La Cueña de les Cabres hits almost 24% and comes right in the middle of the near 18% kilometre. That km is also topped and tailed by 21.5% gradients.
Nothing on the slopes of the Zoncolan matches this section.


For relentless gradient, the Angliru doesn't stand up to the Zoncolan.

Oops. I made a mistake with the maximum gradient, you are right about that but the km at 20% comes from here

http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Monte-Zoncolan&qryMountainID=36

Yeah, thats a quarter kilo.

Hitch, where did you come by that max gradient of 26.5%?
I haven't see that figure before.
Seems 22% is the recognized max.

 

[Descender]

No. As i have pointed out Zoncolans maximum gradient is signifcantly greater than Angirilus and its hardest kilometer is also harder than Angirilus.

Those arent figures that come from the km by km profile.

I posted the profile to challenege the idea that Angirilu has harder sectors, when they both have several km of over 13%.



No you said "But the Angliru definitely has the hardest sectors."

And it doesnt. Zoncolans hardest sectors are steeper and longer than Angirilus. As was pointed out eariler - hardest sectors.

6.5 km at 13% (angirilu) vs 6km at 14.9% - (Zoncolan)

And if you break it into 200m sections Zoncolan has several of 18 and 19% and even 20%. Something Angirilu is not going to beat considering its max gradient is 23.

About that last bit, that isn't true. The Cueña les Cabres and El Aviru are both longer than 200m and above 19% average.

The climbingbike profiles aren't very reliable usually. They don't use an altimetre to measure the climbs but rather total height every said distance, which poses problems due to turns, tunnels, etc.

 

[Descender]

Oops. I made a mistake with the maximum gradient, you are right about that but the km at 20% comes from here

http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Monte-Zoncolan&qryMountainID=36

I see.

Again, don't trust climbybike too much. Here's the official profile. No full km at over 16%.

http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/Giro/Giro07_web/profiles/T17_profile_zoncolan2_2.jpg

 

[The Hitch]

Hitch, where did you come by that max gradient of 26.5%?
I haven't see that figure before.
Seems 22% is the recognized max.

I dont remember. It could be a mistype or a misread or something. I have no idea where i got it but once i posted it once i kept reposting it.

Guess i come of silly now.

Apologies for false info.

 

[Descender]

A rather climbybike-ish official profile from the vuelta, but the zoomed bit is interesting. Roughly 550 metres at 20,6% if my calculations are correct.

 

[uphillstruggle]

I also personally think its worse having the supertough gradients at the beginning and middle.

As I have only watched the pros ride the two climbs in question I can't comment on how hard it would be to race on them as they do but my experience of climbing really steep stuff would vouch for this. If the steep stuff comes at the end you can build into it and empty yourself as you reach the top but if it hits you early on even relatively shallow stuff is purgatory after. I suppose it is harder to judge your effort. As good old Purito showed this year on Zoncolan.

 

[virandociclista]

Who will win...

Montaña classification?

Puntos classification?

Combinada Classification?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Never underestimate the difficulty provided by a lack of consistency. To illustrate this point I always use the Alto da Torre in Portugal. You can climb it from Covilhã or Manteigas; both are about 20,5km @ 6,3%, but Covilhã is harder because the Manteigas side is pretty uniform in gradient. However, the hardest way to climb it is from Seia, which is 28,5km @ a mere 5,1%,but this includes descents, false flats, and real fluctuations in gradient with its steepest ramps of up to 17% meaning riders have a nightmare finding a rhythm on it.

With regards to Hitch claiming it's better to have the toughest sections at the bottom or in the middle; this I agree with, and that is one in favour of Zoncolán; the riders tend to be split up earlier and therefore much more time is pure mano a mano, not just tactical riding in small groups as we often see on climbs, but pure individual grinding. On the other hand, no individual section of Zoncolán matches up to Cueña de las Cabres for difficulty; but Zoncolán has the higher average gradient and the more punishing gradients further down - plus the punishing gradients account for a larger percentage of the climb.

These two climbs are to be considered the hardest discoveries over the last 20 years. These are possibly the toughest climbs in world cycling. But then other climbs which aren't necessarily as tough have other factors - the Mortirolo has the legend and the ability to be connected to far tougher lead-in climbs (I know, Crostis is a possibility, but there isn't too much of that scale that can be put next to Angliru - though it would be feasible to do a monster stage from Comellana or Belmonte over San Lorenzo, Alto de la Cobertoria, Cordal and then Angliru), while a climb like the Rettenbachferner gives you 12,4km at 9,9% but at 1000m greater altitude.