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Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2022, stage 15: Martos - Sierra Nevada. Alto Hoya de la Mora. Monachil, 152.6k

Page 29 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
That's funny because i think the bias here is mainly in the pro-Rog (or anti-RE) camp. I don't think in the past it was generally well liked by lots of people when a defending champion would not do any work for miles and miles, just to outsprint his rival in the final stretch. I know a lot MVDP fans didn't like it when Colbrelli outsprinted him, while in that case Colbrelli had actually been doing a lot of work.

In general I would agree with it being legitimate but not great to see if the three time winner of a GT doesn't take responsibility and only outsprints his rival at the end. (And the moment in the past, with Roglic and Dennis, I didn't like that either.) However in this case it's different. Roglic had to leave the Tour with injuries and pain. He has had a very short preparation, up to the point that if they are talking truth he actually only had such few training in between, his level is incredible. ( I suspect it's not the complete truth.) So, against Evenepoel now, who has 2 minutes on him, he's actually the underdog, and as such I find his tactics very much okay.

Personally I find Mas' tactics more frustrating, but if he already went too deep a few times during this GT it's different, I didn't know that.
 
Wait... Roglic was attacking Evenepoel... You think Evenepoel should have helped him do that?

No. Evenepoel should not. He should suck wheel. Mas and López should. Mas for moving up the GC and getting closer to the race leader. López to win a stage. After Roglič and JV did the bulk of the work. In such case Kuss would not be needed. And even on a bad day i am sure that Roglič would do his turns.

Once it got clear he just has a bunch of wheel suckers on his back. And 15km to go. He knew that the outcome of him getting heaps of time on Evenepoel is not realistic anymore. In regards to this stage. Hence what he did is he saved a bullet, rode more conservatively then Evenepoel and gained some time. As in the end this was just one stage.
 
Why burn matches when Jumbo are doing it for you? López and Mas then attacked when impetus went out of Jumbo's move and gained time not only on Evenepoel but on Rogla too.

Doesn't seem that bad an outcome for them to me.

López was here to win the stage. He didn't win the stage. Mas could move up in GC and be closer to GC leader. He did gain some time on Roglič. That much is true. Still being second in GC and closer to race leader is in my opinion a better outcome.

But OK. Roglič should do it alone. Fine. It's just this was not the stage to do it alone. Dragging all three up the hill for 15km. And expecting to gain something at all. That would be rather naive. Contrary to preserving some strength for week 3 and still gaining time on race leader on stage 15.
 
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I think if Libertine and CyclistAbi combined their writing styles we would get readable sentences of average length and structure. :p

(I like to see different personalities in writing styles, so it's not really a critique.)

The ultimate goal here is for us all to rejoice Kuss. Once we can do that then we have done our part. I will start by hating him a bit. For not being here. For the other side to maybe start loving him a bit. For not being here.
 
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But that was Roglic still trying to break Evenepoel until he realized he couldn't. Then his magnanimous effort was over.
Some of your word choices make me think misunderstand the purpose of this sport, which is to defeat your opponent. You only give gifts when they cost little and you think you will have a larger return down the line. Do you think Remco was pacing the group to be magnanimous?

By the way, as best I can recall Remco’s attacks this year have all taken the form of him riding his pace at the front; it’s just that earlier he was stronger and/or they were weaker.
 
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Some of your word choices make me think misunderstand the purpose of this sport, which is to defeat your opponent. You only give gifts when they cost little and you think you will have a larger return down the line. Do you think Remco was pacing the group to be magnanimous?

By the way, as best I can recall Remco’s attacks this year have all taken the form of him riding his pace at the front; it’s just that earlier he was stronger and/or they were weaker.
Going by your earlier post, i was assuming you were new to cycling. Yes, i understand the goal of the sport (the purpose would be something else imho). I also find it endearing that Roglic gets so much support in the matter. The contrast with any other rider sucking wheel for 18k and landing a suckerpunch is immense. The forum is usually very vocal about stuff like that, but now that it's Roglic, suddenly i'm biased because in this case Evenepoel was the sucker that got punched. I don't particularly dislike Roglic, but i did like him a lot more back in the day when he was attacking, and not mainly aiming for boniseconds. He still attacks sometimes but that's been reduced greatly. I have nothing but respect for him trying to attack Evenepoel at the food of the climb, from that far out. I'm just not a fan of what he did after that, regardless of who he is and who he attacked. But good to see all you folks paying so much attention to my opinion. I'm honored. I will be remembering the occasion though, when in the future a less popular (on the forum) rider suckerpunches a more popular rider by contributing 0% in the chase or attack and attacking him before the finish. Good times ahead.
 
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The problem with Mas is also that he went in the red too early in Les Praeres and La Pandera, and both times lost much more time than he should/could have. It's pretty normal that he is a bit hesitant to go all out then.

You have to remember that coming into the Vuelta , Mas' self-confidence was pretty much at an all time low. He openly states that mentally he's not back to being his best yet, and that likely means he doesn't believe in his own abilties.

Here's the thing about Mas that is incredibly frustrating, and I say this as a fan of the guy. Physically he has all the talent to challenge for GT victories. His magic numbers are supposedly in the top tier elite. With him, a lot of his weakness has been mental. He rides like a diesel when he has the capabilty to launch massive attacks. His attacks the last two days were brutal. On stage 14, Lopez could barely hold his wheel (which probably led to Mas blowing up). Yesterday, that attack was impressive. Last year, he blew the race apart on stage 9, dropped Bernal and Yates, and only Roglic could match him. You also saw him crash on stage 14 and ride the rest of the race very tentatively. It's mindnumbing stuff to see him revert to steady pace after watching the rider who went so early on the l'Angliru two years ago ride so conservatively at times, but he's got to preserve the team's position but isn't confident enough right now to put in the attacks necessary to win the race.

Up until the Vuelta, his entire season had been a massive (no pun intended) failure, and his manager was quoted as saying he had not developed into a sole leader yet.

He's an incredibly frustrating rider to be sure, but I also think that he's overly criticized.
 
Going by your earlier post, i was assuming you were new to cycling
:rolleyes:
Yes, i understand the goal of the sport (the purpose would be something else imho)
As much as I am a sucker for panache and flair, at the end of the day, it’s about winning, no? What would you say, entertainment? I guess it depends on whose perspective you’re taking.
I also find it endearing that Roglic gets so much support in the matter. The contrast with any other rider sucking wheel for 18k and landing a suckerpunch is immense. The forum is usually very vocal about stuff like that, but now that it's Roglic, suddenly i'm biased because in this case Evenepoel was the sucker that got punched. I don't particularly dislike Roglic, but i did like him a lot more back in the day when he was attacking, and not mainly aiming for boniseconds. He still attacks sometimes but that's been reduced greatly. I have nothing but respect for him trying to attack Evenepoel at the food of the climb, from that far out. I'm just not a fan of what he did after that, regardless of who he is and who he attacked. But good to see all you folks paying so much attention to my opinion. I'm honored.
A lot of us like Remco pretty well, but your particular style of attack (ad hominems, contempt, hyperbole, etc.) makes it easy to argue with you. I would imagine some of the hardcore Roglic fans are the same way, I just don’t bother arguing with them because I’m a Roglic fan. And what is there to say to the many reasonable takes out there? 90% of posters get that Remco is an incredible talent who is (probably) putting it all together now to win his first GT and Roglic is hurt but giving it a go with variable success, etc. Not much to debate there.
 
You have to remember that coming into the Vuelta , Mas' self-confidence was pretty much at an all time low. He openly states that mentally he's not back to being his best yet, and that likely means he doesn't believe in his own abilties.

Here's the thing about Mas that is incredibly frustrating, and I say this as a fan of the guy. Physically he has all the talent to challenge for GT victories. His magic numbers are supposedly in the top tier elite. With him, a lot of his weakness has been mental. He rides like a diesel when he has the capabilty to launch massive attacks. His attacks the last two days were brutal. On stage 14, Lopez could barely hold his wheel (which probably led to Mas blowing up). Yesterday, that attack was impressive. Last year, he blew the race apart on stage 9, dropped Bernal and Yates, and only Roglic could match him. You also saw him crash on stage 14 and ride the rest of the race very tentatively. It's mindnumbing stuff to see him revert to steady pace after watching the rider who went so early on the l'Angliru two years ago ride so conservatively at times, but he's got to preserve the team's position but isn't confident enough right now to put in the attacks necessary to win the race.

Up until the Vuelta, his entire season had been a massive (no pun intended) failure, and his manager was quoted as saying he had not developed into a sole leader yet.

He's an incredibly frustrating rider to be sure, but I also think that he's overly criticized.
Good post. I’d love to see Mas capitalize on his talent. Maybe he’ll learn a bit from Remco, who I’d anything has the opposite problem. Mas definitely shows flashes that make it seem like he is right there but just can’t quite put it together. Still an excellent rider.
 
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Going by your earlier post, i was assuming you were new to cycling. Yes, i understand the goal of the sport (the purpose would be something else imho). I also find it endearing that Roglic gets so much support in the matter. The contrast with any other rider sucking wheel for 18k and landing a suckerpunch is immense. The forum is usually very vocal about stuff like that, but now that it's Roglic, suddenly i'm biased because in this case Evenepoel was the sucker that got punched. I don't particularly dislike Roglic, but i did like him a lot more back in the day when he was attacking, and not mainly aiming for boniseconds. He still attacks sometimes but that's been reduced greatly. I have nothing but respect for him trying to attack Evenepoel at the food of the climb, from that far out. I'm just not a fan of what he did after that, regardless of who he is and who he attacked. But good to see all you folks paying so much attention to my opinion. I'm honored. I will be remembering the occasion though, when in the future a less popular (on the forum) rider suckerpunches a more popular rider by contributing 0% in the chase or attack and attacking him before the finish. Good times ahead.
Here's to the moments left in the Vuelta that satisfy your view of racing and the unfortunate "folks" that may not share it. If any of the top 3 win; I will consider it a success for them however they tactically achieve it.
Or we could treat it like an NHRA uphill drag race where they all go at once and the one at the top first, wins.
 
I'm sorry, but your bias is too big in this rant. Roglic has no reason to chase Mas, why would Roglic care about finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Vuelta? He did everything right to increase his chance to win the Vuelta which is let the leader do the work. Why the hell would Roglic protect his 2nd place? He better let Evenepoel do as much work as possible and fatigue him and profit from that. You might dislike that, but it's by far the smartest strategy.

Evenepoel almost did everything right. He knew Roglic was never going to pull so he pulled at his own pace and really didn't lose that much time to Mas. If Roglic noticed that Evenepoel would fade and start to give up a minute no doubt he would've attacked Evenepoel earlier on the climb, but Evenepoel simply was very strong and Roglic knew he could only do a final 1-2km jump and that's it. So hats off to Evenepoel who was in a precarious situation, but managed this really well. For someone who seemed to be mentally unstable imo he's showing great mental resilience this Vuelta and I'm warming up to him.

Evenepoel made one mistake though. Next time he shouldn't let Mas go, because Roglic will only profit from that situation by sitting in Evenepoels wheel. I think Evenepoel could've followed Mas at that point, but I guess we can't be sure about that.

For Evenepoels sake I hope he realises that Roglic will not help him chase Mas. Roglic will only use that situation to tire Evenepoel out. Imo hat's certainly him being a big champion, because riding for 2nd is not worth it. Evenepoel has been stronger this Vuelta so he needs to find other ways to beat him. This isn't a friendly ride!
I don't think Evenepoel could respond to Mas. He wasn't sitting pretty, cause otherwise he doesn't lose almost 5s/km to Mas on a 5% climb. Especially if you respond once, and then Roglic counters your ass and joins MAL. Now it's a very reasonable assumption at that point that Roglic is probably weak, but you also don't wanna play tactical games with a guy who probably doesn't care about 2nd place all too much.
 
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I don't think Evenepoel could respond to Mas. He wasn't sitting pretty, cause otherwise he doesn't lose almost 5s/km to Mas on a 5% climb. Especially if you respond once, and then Roglic counters your ass and joins MAL. Now it's a very reasonable assumption at that point that Roglic is probably weak, but you also don't wanna play tactical games with a guy who probably doesn't care about 2nd place all too much.
+ a Big 1:
I think all 3 guys were at their limit and micro opinions and "should-ofs" can be a waste of time. Everyone here that actually rides has been in the mental vaporlock that comes from hitting too big a climb while too tired. Times X 14 days, professional pressure and you get to where they all were...doing all they could.
 
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Remco started riding when Mal/Mas had close to 20seconds and were in the slipstream of someone from Astana. So they took 16 seconds on him on a very long drag benifitting climb while working with multiple people.
The difference was also very constant for a long time as well. Whether he could follow we wouldn't know, but Mal/Mas weren't much better. They just benifitted from having eachother/teammates and Remco not caring to much about them.
If Mal didn't attack, Mas wouldn't have attacked as he would have been alone on the climb and he would have fallen back before the finish.
And Mal attacked because he had someone in front that could help him.

Just wanted to say that the difference between the riders have been mostly due to tactical choices and not necesarrily power differences.
 
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As much as I am a sucker for panache and flair, at the end of the day, it’s about winning, no? What would you say, entertainment? I guess it depends on whose perspective you’re taking. A lot of us like Remco pretty well, but your particular style of attack (ad hominems, contempt, hyperbole, etc.) makes it easy to argue with you. I would imagine some of the hardcore Roglic fans are the same way, I just don’t bother arguing with them because I’m a Roglic fan. And what is there to say to the many reasonable takes out there? 90% of posters get that Remco is an incredible talent who is (probably) putting it all together now to win his first GT and Roglic is hurt but giving it a go with variable success, etc. Not much to debate there.
Ad hominems and contempt? I thought it was you trying to explain to me what the sport was all about?
We're on an internet forum, if you can't handle hyperbole then turn off your computer and steer clear of any sort of social interaction online. Ha! I did it again! If people need to take every hyperbole at face value and can't see the humor or miss the context, that's on them. That 's just like saying you can't use sarcasm anymore because not everyone gets it. But sure, i do use a lot of hyperbole, mainly because i think it is fun. Same with sarcasm tbh.
I also am much more for supporting a rider, than anti-supporting a rival unlike a lot of posters here. You will not easily see me sht on a rider, just for the fact that i don't like him. If a rider does something i think is shitty, i will call it out, but that's that. Which is what i did here before everybody felt the need to tell me i was not entitled to have an opinion. Also people sometimes find the need to keep debating something which is obvious. Like last month half the forum jumped down my throat for stating Evenepoel is clearly a more talented TT'er than Küng. What a crazy thing to say.
 
That's funny because i think the bias here is mainly in the pro-Rog (or anti-RE) camp. I don't think in the past it was generally well liked by lots of people when a defending champion would not do any work for miles and miles, just to outsprint his rival in the final stretch. I know a lot MVDP fans didn't like it when Colbrelli outsprinted him, while in that case Colbrelli had actually been doing a lot of work.

Wheelsucking is generally not much appreciated indeed, but stupidity isn't appreciated either.
Colbrelli didn't dominate that Roubaix, but he certainly was the smartest and MvdP was silly for pulling him along all the time.
Also I don't think comparing a one day race with a GC battle is a fair comparison. It's almost as if you miss the point.

It would've been incredibly noble of Roglic to help Evenepoel, but good grief that would've been stupid.
 
Going by your earlier post, i was assuming you were new to cycling. Yes, i understand the goal of the sport (the purpose would be something else imho). I also find it endearing that Roglic gets so much support in the matter. The contrast with any other rider sucking wheel for 18k and landing a suckerpunch is immense. The forum is usually very vocal about stuff like that, but now that it's Roglic, suddenly i'm biased because in this case Evenepoel was the sucker that got punched. I don't particularly dislike Roglic, but i did like him a lot more back in the day when he was attacking, and not mainly aiming for boniseconds. He still attacks sometimes but that's been reduced greatly. I have nothing but respect for him trying to attack Evenepoel at the food of the climb, from that far out. I'm just not a fan of what he did after that, regardless of who he is and who he attacked. But good to see all you folks paying so much attention to my opinion. I'm honored. I will be remembering the occasion though, when in the future a less popular (on the forum) rider suckerpunches a more popular rider by contributing 0% in the chase or attack and attacking him before the finish. Good times ahead.

Calimero? You know him?

I'm sure you will come up with this after someone wheelsucked a climb and jumped to victory when there is absolutely no relevant comparison to the GC situation. Else you will most likely not be able to call people out on this, but you fail to see the difference. I just don't get it you don't understand why Roglic didn't pull, but let's agree to disagree. I'm done :)
 
Calimero? You know him?

I'm sure you will come up with this after someone wheelsucked a climb and jumped to victory when there is absolutely no relevant comparison to the GC situation. Else you will most likely not be able to call people out on this, but you fail to see the difference. I just don't get it you don't understand why Roglic didn't pull, but let's agree to disagree. I'm done :)
0% chance it's a matter of not understanding.
 
Calimero? You know him?

I'm sure you will come up with this after someone wheelsucked a climb and jumped to victory when there is absolutely no relevant comparison to the GC situation. Else you will most likely not be able to call people out on this, but you fail to see the difference. I just don't get it you don't understand why Roglic didn't pull, but let's agree to disagree. I'm done :)

Its not a matter about understanding why, it is just a personal preference to not like that choice. (which i agree with).

As i said in the roglic topic:

I don't like the fact he hid as a 3 times champion
but you can applaud him for being "either i win or you loose" approach.

both can be true at the same time.
 

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