Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2022, stage 15: Martos - Sierra Nevada. Alto Hoya de la Mora. Monachil, 152.6k

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's a side of Roglic i don't really like, and it's not the first time i've seen some unsportsmanlike racing of him. This really reminded me of when he was trailing Rohan Dennis by 4 minutes i think in the Harrogate WCC ITT. Dennis passed him by with still i think 15k to go, and suddenly he started getting in Dennis' slipstream and trying to overtake him again, while he at that point was a non-factor. He was just trolling Dennis, since he wasn't even getting into the top 10 at that point. To add insult to injury, he actually sprinted next to Dennis when they were about to cross the finishline. That's just poor and pathetic in my book. Today, i'd have no issue if he attacked Evenepoel before the finish, in case he had at least tried to do some work in chasing Mas, who was a threat to him before he was to Evenepoel. Yeah, sorry, not a fan of this behavior. Unfitting a ''great champion''. If you want to wheelsuck your way up a climb, and you feel you need to attack the rider who's been doing your job, by all means but don't expect a thumbs up from me.

If Evenepoel is stupidly going to pull you up the climb, you’d be an idiot to pull, especially when Evenepoel is one to not let others take pulls.

 

[dazaau]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's a side of Roglic i don't really like, and it's not the first time i've seen some unsportsmanlike racing of him.

You do realise they are racing for keeps right. You do what you can under the circumstances to take time where you can. Cycling is a strategic sport, not just a w/kg test.

Remco did good. I think he will feel like a winner after today, because he is. Roglic has to find 1:35 over the next week, and he and we all know he isn't going to find it by sucking wheel and sprinting to the line.

 

[Ari]

I agree with this. As I see it asking Almeida to positioning himself is like asking Remco to sprint.

I am pretty sure that Almeida not following wheel easily has some other reason than inexperience, stupidity or nonchalance.

I challenge people to find another rider always top 10 that hasn't gotten a scratch in a race for two years. At age 24 no less.

He seems risk averse overall be it descending, pacing or what he says in interviews. Looking at his numbers constantly.

Comes off as a bit nervous to my eyes. And peculiar. (The day I understand Almeida riding and motives I'll probably stop being a fan )

Im on your boat. Its not easy being an Almeida fan. We suffer alot, and still dont understand why he keeps positioning behind on crucial moments.
I imagine him doing this with the leader Jersey on, its an headache even for his teamates.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You do realise they are racing for keeps right. You do what you can under the circumstances to take time where you can. Cycling is a strategic sport, not just a w/kg test.

What does that have to do with what i said? He can do it, but i don't have to like it. It's the same as football teams parking the bus. They're also playing for keeps, yet generally they are not very well liked, because it is a negative attitude towards the sport. Mas gets ridiculed on a daily basis for being a wheelsucker, but for Roglic it's ok?

 

[dazaau]

What does that have to do with what i said? He can do it, but i don't have to like it. It's the same as football teams parking the bus. They're also playing for keeps, yet generally they are not very well liked, because it is a negative attitude towards the sport. Mas gets ridiculed on a daily basis for being a wheelsucker, but for Roglic it's ok?

I don't get the mas hate either, he's doing what he can.

You do not need to like it. I didn't like it, it was boring. But it's not unsportsmanlike or unethical. Remco knew at the end that it was annoying but logical.

It wasn't a show of strength, it was weakness today. 15 seconds for not being the leader. 1:35 short of what is required.

It also suited Remco to pace as start stop attacks are not his friend.

 

[Escarabajo]

Pfff Remco, why always on the front. Maybe he was also bluffing and only 1km to the top

I read several of these comments and also listened to some podcasts saying the same thing. But at the end, thinking with a cold head, everyone agreed that it was the right thing to do and always been the right thing to do. If you slow down you are more exposed and it becomes worse because you have now to control several riders attacking you by pulls. Remco has been riding like a Champion IMHO. He will enter the critical third week. He needs to rely on his team a lot more than past weeks.

 

[SHAD0W93]

In my opinion it was absolutely Mas' duty to ride and pull today, as he is quite likely to be the winner of this Vuelta if something happens to Evenepoel. Lopez couldn't ride for the stage win or the podium today, so in my opinion he had less responsibility today. But I admit, I will just never become a Mas fan anymore.

Why would Mas ride when MAL first had a teammate and when Mas went to help, MAL attacked him. That makes no sense from Mas’s standpoint.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Why would Mas ride when MAL first had a teammate and when Mas went to help, MAL attacked him. That makes no sense from Mas’s standpoint.

Exactly, Superman Lopez often rides like he has ants in his chamois. To be fair though he seems like the type of rider who can't just sit back and suffer and wait for his ideal moment ala Roglic. Lopez attacks when he can and when he can't he gets dropped. Regarding Evenepoel and Roglic if someone (Evenepoel) wants to try and ride at a hard enough tempo that he can't be attacked then I don't think Roglic has any obligation to help him set that tempo.

 

[dutchdescent]

Exactly, Superman Lopez often rides like he has ants in his chamois. To be fair though he seems like the type of rider who can't just sit back and suffer and wait for his ideal moment ala Roglic. Lopez attacks when he can and when he can't he gets dropped. Regarding Evenepoel and Roglic if someone (Evenepoel) wants to try and ride at a hard enough tempo that he can't be attacked then I don't think Roglic has any obligation to help him set that tempo.

Agree. Your username though. Food for the imaginative

 

[SHAD0W93]

Exactly, Superman Lopez often rides like he has ants in his chamois. To be fair though he seems like the type of rider who can't just sit back and suffer and wait for his ideal moment ala Roglic. Lopez attacks when he can and when he can't he gets dropped. Regarding Evenepoel and Roglic if someone (Evenepoel) wants to try and ride at a hard enough tempo that he can't be attacked then I don't think Roglic has any obligation to help him set that tempo.

And it was in Evenepoel’s best interest to ride to stop the others from hitting him with the stop and go. Overall the only team that could have done better was Jumbo as their team attack did nothing and Harper brought Evenepoel back.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Exactly, Superman Lopez often rides like he has ants in his chamois. To be fair though he seems like the type of rider who can't just sit back and suffer and wait for his ideal moment ala Roglic. Lopez attacks when he can and when he can't he gets dropped. Regarding Evenepoel and Roglic if someone (Evenepoel) wants to try and ride at a hard enough tempo that he can't be attacked then I don't think Roglic has any obligation to help him set that tempo.

Evenepoel wasn't riding at such a pace that made it impossible to attack, since both Mas and Lopez both attacked, unless i dreamt that, and they immediately got a pretty big gap. So unlike in week 1, this wasn't what Evenepoel was doing. He was just riding a tempo that he knew he could sustain all the way to the top while limiting his losses. The fact that he didn't ride much faster than Arensman from the break, or Ayuso coming from behind, further proves that.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's a side of Roglic i don't really like, and it's not the first time i've seen some unsportsmanlike racing of him. This really reminded me of when he was trailing Rohan Dennis by 4 minutes i think in the Harrogate WCC ITT. Dennis passed him by with still i think 15k to go, and suddenly he started getting in Dennis' slipstream and trying to overtake him again, while he at that point was a non-factor. He was just trolling Dennis, since he wasn't even getting into the top 10 at that point. To add insult to injury, he actually sprinted next to Dennis when they were about to cross the finishline. That's just poor and pathetic in my book. Today, i'd have no issue if he attacked Evenepoel before the finish, in case he had at least tried to do some work in chasing Mas, who was a threat to him before he was to Evenepoel. Yeah, sorry, not a fan of this behavior. Unfitting a ''great champion''. If you want to wheelsuck your way up a climb, and you feel you need to attack the rider who's been doing your job, by all means but don't expect a thumbs up from me.

lmao

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's a side of Roglic i don't really like, and it's not the first time i've seen some unsportsmanlike racing of him. This really reminded me of when he was trailing Rohan Dennis by 4 minutes i think in the Harrogate WCC ITT. Dennis passed him by with still i think 15k to go, and suddenly he started getting in Dennis' slipstream and trying to overtake him again, while he at that point was a non-factor. He was just trolling Dennis, since he wasn't even getting into the top 10 at that point. To add insult to injury, he actually sprinted next to Dennis when they were about to cross the finishline. That's just poor and pathetic in my book. Today, i'd have no issue if he attacked Evenepoel before the finish, in case he had at least tried to do some work in chasing Mas, who was a threat to him before he was to Evenepoel. Yeah, sorry, not a fan of this behavior. Unfitting a ''great champion''. If you want to wheelsuck your way up a climb, and you feel you need to attack the rider who's been doing your job, by all means but don't expect a thumbs up from me.

You’re right that you have no obligation to feel any way about any rider at all. For example, I have wanted to like Mas but have found myself more or less indifferent. However, your bias, likely stemming from the sense that Remco (and, by extension, you) have been wronged somehow, is creeping into your analysis.

• There are two major differences between Roglic and Mas:
  • Roglic wins. A lot.
  • Roglic attacks. You might prefer that he attack from afar more frequently, but he is far from a passive rider. He is closer to Valverde maybe in capitalizing on his strength in mountain sprinting, but he has many big mountain attacks to his name.
• I think Mas has done quite well this Vuelta and showed much more attacking spirit than normal, and I think the general consensus has been as such. I have not seen a consensus that “Mas wheelsucked and Roglic attacked” today; that is a classic straw man.
• Attacking the red jersey on the Queen Stage does not display a lack of sportsmanship unless they are injured, impeded, or have a mechanical.
• Remco is in the red jersey. When a threat is up the road, it is on him to chase it down. We see this over and over again.
• Roglic’s best move was to drop Remco early and put major time into him. He tried this move and failed due to lack of legs.
• His second best move was to join Mas and MAL but he said afterward he did not have the legs.
• His third best move was to sit on and try to steal some seconds, which he did. I fail to see the lack of sportsmanship. This is a race after all.
• Of course no one is suggesting, including Roglic, that he covered himself in glory today. You have to have the legs to do that and Roglic has had variable form all Vuelta for well known reasons.

 

[dutchdescent]

You’re right that you have no obligation to feel any way about any rider at all. For example, I have wanted to like Mas but have found myself more or less indifferent. However, your bias, likely stemming from the sense that Remco (and, by extension, you) have been wronged somehow, is creeping into your analysis.

• There are two major differences between Roglic and Mas:
  • Roglic wins. A lot.
  • Roglic attacks. You might prefer that he attack from afar more frequently, but he is far from a passive rider. He is closer to Valverde maybe in capitalizing on his strength in mountain sprinting, but he has many big mountain attacks to his name.
• I think Mas has done quite well this Vuelta and showed much more attacking spirit than normal, and I think the general consensus has been as such. I have not seen a consensus that “Mas wheelsucked and Roglic attacked” today; that is a classic straw man.
• Attacking the red jersey on the Queen Stage does not display a lack of sportsmanship unless they are injured, impeded, or have a mechanical.
• Remco is in the red jersey. When a threat is up the road, it is on him to chase it down. We see this over and over again.
• Roglic’s best move was to drop Remco early and put major time into him. He tried this move and failed due to lack of legs.
• His second best move was to join Mas and MAL but he said afterward he did not have the legs.
• His third best move was to sit on and try to steal some seconds, which he did. I fail to see the lack of sportsmanship. This is a race after all.
• Of course no one is suggesting, including Roglic, that he covered himself in glory today. You have to have the legs to do that and Roglic has had variable form all Vuelta for well known reasons.

Agree biased, but that was obvious a long time ago. In Logic’s defense: no one is unbiased here. If it were the case, you simply would not join the forum

Main gripe, don’t dress it up as neutral analysis.

Back to Roglic being a wheelsucker. What a *** word first of all and not applicable to him at all.

Memorable long range attack coming to mind of TDF 2017. May not have been fighting for GC but still, anything but a wheelsucker.

Source: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roglic-continues-unlikely-journey-with-tour-de-france-stage-win/

 

[noob]

Im on your boat. Its not easy being an Almeida fan. We suffer alot, and still dont understand why he keeps positioning behind on crucial moments.
I imagine him doing this with the leader Jersey on, its an headache even for his teamates.

Exactly. Riding for him as a domestique must be so confusing. You'd need to copy his clock. Or you need to surround him QX style and coax him better on the road. Like baby-sitting style. He needs the pack style treatment I think. But creating that on climbs is a really hard task.

 

[Rackham]

Firstly, I really don't think Roglič cares about Mas getting closer in GC to his own position, i.e. on the contrary it sort of plays in his favor because Evenepoel now needs to chase Mas. He can't just let him ride off without responding. Rog isn't racing for second place, i.e. this should be obvious (& Evenepoel will know this).

Secondly, yesterday was somewhat similar to the Grand Colombier stage in the 2020 TdF when Pog sat on Jumbo's train wheels as they paced the final climb & then he mugged Rog at the finish to close the gap a little bit more in GC. Sure there was a stage win up for grabs back then but the principle (i.e. second in GC letting the leader work & then beating him for a few seconds at the end) isn't so dissimilar.

I think Evenepoel fans viewed yesterday as 'the' danger stage so they're rightly relieved it went relatively well without much time loss. He looked very strong as well. But (huge but), this is far from over.

Enjoy the ride because Roglič will try again, again & again. Saturday looks like the big one.

 

[Kwibus]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's a side of Roglic i don't really like, and it's not the first time i've seen some unsportsmanlike racing of him. This really reminded me of when he was trailing Rohan Dennis by 4 minutes i think in the Harrogate WCC ITT. Dennis passed him by with still i think 15k to go, and suddenly he started getting in Dennis' slipstream and trying to overtake him again, while he at that point was a non-factor. He was just trolling Dennis, since he wasn't even getting into the top 10 at that point. To add insult to injury, he actually sprinted next to Dennis when they were about to cross the finishline. That's just poor and pathetic in my book. Today, i'd have no issue if he attacked Evenepoel before the finish, in case he had at least tried to do some work in chasing Mas, who was a threat to him before he was to Evenepoel. Yeah, sorry, not a fan of this behavior. Unfitting a ''great champion''. If you want to wheelsuck your way up a climb, and you feel you need to attack the rider who's been doing your job, by all means but don't expect a thumbs up from me.

I'm sorry, but your bias is too big in this rant. Roglic has no reason to chase Mas, why would Roglic care about finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Vuelta? He did everything right to increase his chance to win the Vuelta which is let the leader do the work. Why the hell would Roglic protect his 2nd place? He better let Evenepoel do as much work as possible and fatigue him and profit from that. You might dislike that, but it's by far the smartest strategy.

Evenepoel almost did everything right. He knew Roglic was never going to pull so he pulled at his own pace and really didn't lose that much time to Mas. If Roglic noticed that Evenepoel would fade and start to give up a minute no doubt he would've attacked Evenepoel earlier on the climb, but Evenepoel simply was very strong and Roglic knew he could only do a final 1-2km jump and that's it. So hats off to Evenepoel who was in a precarious situation, but managed this really well. For someone who seemed to be mentally unstable imo he's showing great mental resilience this Vuelta and I'm warming up to him.

Evenepoel made one mistake though. Next time he shouldn't let Mas go, because Roglic will only profit from that situation by sitting in Evenepoels wheel. I think Evenepoel could've followed Mas at that point, but I guess we can't be sure about that.

For Evenepoels sake I hope he realises that Roglic will not help him chase Mas. Roglic will only use that situation to tire Evenepoel out. Imo hat's certainly him being a big champion, because riding for 2nd is not worth it. Evenepoel has been stronger this Vuelta so he needs to find other ways to beat him. This isn't a friendly ride!

 

[Jagartrott]

I think that Evenepoel was afraid of blowing up when trying to follow Mas, which could have been a disaster at that point of the climb. So he opted to lose a bit of time rather than running the risk of losing a big chunk of time. I think this was smart, given his advantage and the way the day prior unfolded (when he went into the red and paid for it).

 

[Bolder]

What does that have to do with what i said? He can do it, but i don't have to like it. It's the same as football teams parking the bus. They're also playing for keeps, yet generally they are not very well liked, because it is a negative attitude towards the sport. Mas gets ridiculed on a daily basis for being a wheelsucker, but for Roglic it's ok?

Roglic generally races aggressively when he's feeling good. I thought he wasn't very strong yesterday -- or at least he was unsure of his shape -- and I also think he was expecting at least some help from Oomen and Dennis. He got squat, JV's plans were out the window, and Remco was strong. So in this case, he did the best he could under the circumstances.

Ideally, yes, he'd ride tranquilo to the line with Remco, but there were two factors: Mas was up the road taking time and this was really the last stage for a few days to take some time. I was actually surprised that Remco couldn't go with him in the final K or 2.

For the record, I don't like the term "wheelsucker." Tactics are as much a part of cycling as fitness, unless you're Cancellara and can just crush everyone. There was absolutely no reason yesterday for Roglic to pull. Remco was certainly well within his rights to back off and force O'Connor or Roglic take a turn. And Roglic did pull at the bottom until he started edging into the red.

 

[Bolder]

Evenepoel made one mistake though. Next time he shouldn't let Mas go, because Roglic will only profit from that situation by sitting in Evenepoels wheel. I think Evenepoel could've followed Mas at that point, but I guess we can't be sure about that.

For Evenepoels sake I hope he realises that Roglic will not help him chase Mas. Roglic will only use that situation to tire Evenepoel out. Imo hat's certainly him being a big champion, because riding for 2nd is not worth it. Evenepoel has been stronger this Vuelta so he needs to find other ways to beat him. This isn't a friendly ride!

I'm not sure that Roglic wanted to ship too much time to Mas.

 

[Fantastico]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's a side of Roglic i don't really like, and it's not the first time i've seen some unsportsmanlike racing of him.

Today, i'd have no issue if he attacked Evenepoel before the finish, in case he had at least tried to do some work in chasing Mas, who was a threat to him before he was to Evenepoel. Yeah, sorry, not a fan of this behavior. Unfitting a ''great champion''. If you want to wheelsuck your way up a climb, and you feel you need to attack the rider who's been doing your job, by all means but don't expect a thumbs up from me.

Yesterday there was nothing unsportsmanlike about Roglic. I'm pretty sure he does not care about getting 2nd or 3rd, so why the hell would it be his duty to chase Mas? And even if, to gamble a bit and making someone else chase instead is a pretty standard move in cycling.

 

[Kwibus]

I'm not sure that Roglic wanted to ship too much time to Mas.

Do you really think Roglic cares about 2nd or 3rd? I'm sure he prefers 2nd, but he cares a lot more about winning. Aslong as Remco kept that gap within a minute Roglic would sit on his wheel. If he would've noticed that Evenepoel was fading and the gap would've started growing then Roglic would've attacked, maybe if Roglic had attacked Evenepoel and was alone he would've still lost more ground to Mas because he didn't look that good yesterday, but we will never know. Evenepoel was strong enough to prevent this scenario.

 

[Fantastico]

For the record, I don't like the term "wheelsucker." Tactics are as much a part of cycling as fitness, unless you're Cancellara and can just crush everyone.

It's definitely overused in this forum.

 

[Fantastico]

What does that have to do with what i said? He can do it, but i don't have to like it. It's the same as football teams parking the bus. They're also playing for keeps, yet generally they are not very well liked, because it is a negative attitude towards the sport. Mas gets ridiculed on a daily basis for being a wheelsucker, but for Roglic it's ok?

1. Not liking the way someone rides and calling it unsportsmanlike are two completely different things.
2. Parking the bus in football is not a negative attitude towards sthe sport (even if not appealing to the audience), but a valid tactical approach to do what the game is about: winning it. It's just a way to maximize your chance of winning in certain situations. I'm pretty sure there is no rule in football that you have to play in a way that pleases the audience in the best possible way.
3. Many riders get ridiculed for being wheelsuckers, sometimes for valid reasons, sometimes not. Mas for example gets hate for it if he attacks with someone else and despite being able to gain time on his opponents, does not contribute to setting the pace. There are other situations where not chasing is just a suitable tactical measure in cycling.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Do you really think Roglic cares about 2nd or 3rd? I'm sure he prefers 2nd, but he cares a lot more about winning. Aslong as Remco kept that gap within a minute Roglic would sit on his wheel. If he would've noticed that Evenepoel was fading and the gap would've started growing then Roglic would've attacked, maybe if Roglic had attacked Evenepoel and was alone he would've still lost more ground to Mas because he didn't look that good yesterday, but we will never know. Evenepoel was strong enough to prevent this scenario.

Roglic also can’t ship so much time that Mas it becomes like the Giro with Mas being Carapaz.