Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2022, stage 15: Martos - Sierra Nevada. Alto Hoya de la Mora. Monachil, 152.6k

[CyclistAbi]

Congratulations to Thymen Arensma for winning queen stage.

Highly anticipated stage especially considering what happened on stage 14. Was a nice stage to watch.

In my opinion JV did what they had to do. Went hard on penultimate climb and had two cyclists up the road for tactical purposes. On the ultimate climb they went all in on the hardest section. A select group of favorites was left. Roglič did an acceleration. It wasn't enough to drop Evenepoel. Cyclist like Mas and especially López not prepared to take a turn. JV not having a cyclist to help Roglič on such terrain. At this point it was more or less all over. If Evenepoel didn't crack on hardest section and as nobody was prepared to take a turn. He would not on easier parts. If organizer wanted more action they would need to make the final 15 km or so of the stage harder.

Select group would just sit on Rogličes wheel for as long as possible and after to attack. Roglič saved the whole situation, for him, by moving back and to live to fight another day. The role of Kuss was then taken by Evenepoel. Although Mas and López eventually attacked. That didn't make much difference. Stage win was out of reach for López. Roglič stomped a bit to take 15 seconds on Evenepoel. By attacking on a small steep section just before the finish line. Hence overall still a rather good weekend for Roglič. Took more than a minute from Evenepoel.

 

[Ari]

Movistar's passivity was far worse, at least in retrospect.

And what is the role of Valverde here?

Thats because the only man who actually works on that team, was on the break. Nelson Oliveira. I cant understand the Role of the others besides Oliveira and Mas

 

[Libertine Seguros]

In my opinion it was absolutely Mas' duty to ride and pull today, as he is quite likely to be the winner of this Vuelta if something happens to Evenepoel. Lopez couldn't ride for the stage win or the podium today, so in my opinion he had less responsibility today. But I admit, I will just never become a Mas fan anymore.

Well, it was absolutely Evenepoel's duty to ride and pull because he is leading the race. Mas attacked, and then didn't ride when he got across to the two Astana riders as there's no need until de la Cruz was spent. Then López attacked him repeatedly, and then once they got past and through the splintered breakaway he did as much work as López did. Mas is not explosive, he can't just accelerate and decelerate like a featherweight, and it wasn't like him and Supermán were going to be a fluent pair working together for the common benefit after last year's drama (and certainly I can't imagine Mas would have found a receptive audience if he tried to negotiate either due to that). Most of his best rides have been based on doing a Carlos Sastre job, and he has been pretty negative at times, but I think here his reputation is preceding and destroying him because I don't think he did much wrong today to deserve the opprobrium.

Now, there is also some possibility that where they lost out was that Evenepoel either didn't feel he could, or wasn't experienced enough to know it was an option, or considered it as an option but rejected it, bluff Roglič and let Mas go, since Mas was about 3 minutes down on Evenepoel. He could have easily said to Rogla, you're the one whose position is threatened by Enric right now, you do the work, I'll help once he's a threat to me; if he does that, then Rogla would have had to do more work when they first went away about 10km out, and we could have learned a bit more about how strong or weak he was - but it might have been at the cost of seeing the gap to Mas and López grow a bit more than he might have liked and maybe they'd have worked - but he'd also have been fresher to catch that time back too. Or, it could have been that Evenepoel was, far from being inexperienced and idiotic, much more mature and had decided early on that his best bet would be to set his own tempo for the rest of the climb because he wasn't able to respond to changes of pace at that point, and therefore he would be best served by riding at his own tempo and just not caring who he has in his wheel as long as he's riding the pace best suited for himself.

 

[Fantastico]

Thats because the only man who actually works on that team, was on the break. Nelson Oliveira. I cant understand the Role of the others besides Oliveira and Mas

I dont' really know either. Verona, Mühlberger and Valverde are all too weak to stay with Mas for a very long time in the MTFs. Still they don't go into breaks even though it would allow them to chase stage wins (which they should considering their need of UCI points) and at the same time work as a relais for Mas in case that the break is caught in the end.

I just hope Valverde will go into some breaks in the final week. Even if he's not in his best shape, I expected him to be much more active in his last GT. So far he's almost invisible. But maybe what someone else suggested earlier is true and he tries to stay as high as possible in GC because of the UCI points. Even his 16th place currently would give them more UCI points (56) than a second or third place in a stage (40 or 20). So as long as he does not feel that he can really win a stage, it's the best strategy for the team unfortunately.

On the other hand, he has a 12 minute advantage on Tao Geoghegan Hart now who is two places behind him. So actually he should be able to go into breaks without completely risking his GC position. And you also have the chance to make up a few more positions if the break is not caught or caught very late, just as Arensman, Hindley, Meintjes or Polanc did.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If organizer wanted more action they would need to make the final 15 km or so of the stage harder.

Kind of like the originally presented stage which used the Las Sabinas road (like in the 2009 Vuelta) rather than the A-395 between Hazallanas and the Area Autocaravanas at the upper end of Pradollano, you mean?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I just hope Valverde will go into some breaks in the final week. Even if he's not in his best shape, I expected him to be much more active in his last GT. So far he's almost invisible. But maybe what someone else suggested earlier is true and he tries to stay as high as possible in GC because of the UCI points. Even his 16th place currently would give them more UCI points (56) than a second or third place in a stage (40 or 20). So as long as he does not feel that he can really win a stage, it's the best strategy for the team unfortunately.

Getting in breaks will be his best chance to improve his GC position.

 

[Fantastico]

Getting in breaks will be his best chance to improve his GC position.

True. I actually edited my post in the meantime, also addressing this.

 

[Fantastico]

In my opinion it was absolutely Mas' duty to ride and pull today, as he is quite likely to be the winner of this Vuelta if something happens to Evenepoel. Lopez couldn't ride for the stage win or the podium today, so in my opinion he had less responsibility today. But I admit, I will just never become a Mas fan anymore.

But actually that was exactly what Mas indicated in the post-race interview, that Lopez was mainly riding for the stage victory, and thus also tried to attack him. Recall that they were only 1:30 down on Soler and about 1 minute on Arensman with about 8 kilometers to go. It was not to be expected that Arensman wouldn't lose any more time from there on, so the stage victory definitely seemed to be in reach.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Well, it was absolutely Evenepoel's duty to ride and pull because he is leading the race. Mas attacked, and then didn't ride when he got across to the two Astana riders as there's no need until de la Cruz was spent. Then López attacked him repeatedly, and then once they got past and through the splintered breakaway he did as much work as López did. Mas is not explosive, he can't just accelerate and decelerate like a featherweight, and it wasn't like him and Supermán were going to be a fluent pair working together for the common benefit after last year's drama (and certainly I can't imagine Mas would have found a receptive audience if he tried to negotiate either due to that). Most of his best rides have been based on doing a Carlos Sastre job, and he has been pretty negative at times, but I think here his reputation is preceding and destroying him because I don't think he did much wrong today to deserve the opprobrium.

Now, there is also some possibility that where they lost out was that Evenepoel either didn't feel he could, or wasn't experienced enough to know it was an option, or considered it as an option but rejected it, bluff Roglič and let Mas go, since Mas was about 3 minutes down on Evenepoel. He could have easily said to Rogla, you're the one whose position is threatened by Enric right now, you do the work, I'll help once he's a threat to me; if he does that, then Rogla would have had to do more work when they first went away about 10km out, and we could have learned a bit more about how strong or weak he was - but it might have been at the cost of seeing the gap to Mas and López grow a bit more than he might have liked and maybe they'd have worked - but he'd also have been fresher to catch that time back too. Or, it could have been that Evenepoel was, far from being inexperienced and idiotic, much more mature and had decided early on that his best bet would be to set his own tempo for the rest of the climb because he wasn't able to respond to changes of pace at that point, and therefore he would be best served by riding at his own tempo and just not caring who he has in his wheel as long as he's riding the pace best suited for himself.

Evenepoels way of climbing is very reliant on his own legs but taking the chase into his own hands is how Cadel Evans won his Tour de France. But he also only won that one GT so it‘s not a foolproof strategy. Though that‘s probably more down to Evans being not that great a climber.

 

[staubsauger]

Kind of like the originally presented stage which used the Las Sabinas road (like in the 2009 Vuelta) rather than the A-395 between Hazallanas and the Area Autocaravanas at the upper end of Pradollano, you mean?

Still, don't understand that change at all.

They actually wanted to improve the Sierra Nevada stage by letting it finish on the Veleta (or at least at the observatory) to make it meaningful. In the end they even downgraded from the 2009 Sierra Nevada stage won by Moncoutie.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Kind of like the originally presented stage which used the Las Sabinas road (like in the 2009 Vuelta) rather than the A-395 between Hazallanas and the Area Autocaravanas at the upper end of Pradollano, you mean?

A ramp or two of steeper section might have made a difference today. More to the end of the climb. But then again the outcome could be the same. Hence i will take the weekend as a whole and will say OK. Some time did shifted in between top 3 favorites. We can't say the weekend didn't delivered. Favorites and their teams did went all in. More so on yesterday stage as today. And if JV would have Kuss. It could still be the same outcome as today. Roglič stomping a bit at the finish line. This two stages combined hence did have the necessary depth for favorites to make a difference.

 

[Big Doopie]

' top ten (but no podium) candidates'

'They could literally go 6-9 in any GC and no one would be surprised '

'nowhere near having the rider to launch at the end '

I think my post is a pretty fair interpretation of what you wrote.

nope.

this is what you said I said:

“Impressive prediction to conclude that a rider who is 5th on GC after 2 weeks at 21 is unlikely to amount to something more than 6th in the future.”

which is utterly misrepresenting what I said.

I never predicted that that is all they would amount to. Right? I did not say that. Which is clearly all you wanted to hear so that u could pick this silly fight.

you know full well that my only point was that they were all similar type riders. And I was using this as an example of how similar they are. And they are. Obviously it was just that, since Tao is already a GT winner. Lol!

Then again haters always choose to read what they want.

lol.

U r ridiculous.

And now on ignore.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Still, don't understand that change at all.

They actually wanted to improve the Sierra Nevada stage by letting it finish on the Veleta (or at least at the observatory) to make it meaningful. In the end they even downgraded from the 2009 Sierra Nevada stage won by Moncoutie.

Just cloning the 2009 stage but adding in the descent from Monachil to Güejar Sierra and climbing Hazallanas before rejoining the 2009 stage would have been epic. La Ragua is underutilised, I know that Blancares is a nothing climb, but getting a start with big climbs early like in that stage would have been great.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And if JV would have Kuss. It could still be the same outcome as today. Roglič stomping a bit at the finish line. This two stages combined hence did have the necessary depth for favorites to make a difference.

Of course if JV had Kuss it would have been the same outcome, since the stage got redesigned to finish on the gradual climb, he'd have just sat around the group behind Evenepoel doing sweet FA as usual.

 

[hayneplane]

I am far from a fan of or rate Mas but this time around I feel a big sorry for him as clearly he has his best ever chance to win the race and, in normal circumstances, with 2 seconds before I think he might have gambled more with attacks to close the gap to 1st but the relegation battle is making the team very conservative.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Well, obviously. Since he chose to attack. For 2-3km, and then he sucked wheel for 15k.

Rather be happy Evenepoel lost only 15 seconds today.

 

[Fantastico]

I am far from a fan of or rate Mas but this time around I feel a big sorry for him as clearly he has his best ever chance to win the race and, in normal circumstances, with 2 seconds before I think he might have gambled more with attacks to close the gap to 1st but the relegation battle is making the team very conservative.

The problem with Mas is also that he went in the red too early in Les Praeres and La Pandera, and both times lost much more time than he should/could have. It's pretty normal that he is a bit hesitant to go all out then.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Of course if JV had Kuss it would have been the same outcome, since the stage got redesigned to finish on the gradual climb, he'd have just sat around the group behind Evenepoel doing sweet FA as usual.

Still i would say that Evenepoel was a good substitute for Kuss today. Considering nobody from the big 3 cracked at the beginning of the climb. And hence they just had to somehow pedal to the finish line. Knowing not much one can do to gain some heaps of additional time.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

The problem with Mas is also that he went in the red too early in Les Praeres and La Pandera, and both times lost much more time than he should/could have. It's pretty normal that he is a bit hesitant to go all out then.

This is under communicated imo. Mas has tried to go big within a realistic frame the whole Vuelta, but did blow up 3 times (I count the TT too as he finished it slow) already. If he had been riding more defensively he could’ve probably be 30-45 seconds closer at this stage.

 

[noob]

You make a few assumptions here:
1) him dropping on those climbs early is due to bad positionning.
But he is being dropped before the favorites attack. Almeida has a very good base speed, but his 'boost' speed seems to be severly lacking. I don't think he can handle the speeds on the start of the climb.
2) assuming his steady pace performance wouldn't be affected when he follows the others on those boost speeds. But the reason why they go slower is due to those boost speeds already sapping some of the power, which he doesn't have in those yoyo games.


I'm not sure if he does it deliberatly, chosing his own pace because he thinks it is more efficient for him or if it is because he lacks the part to go above a certain treshold. I think he lost time on ayuso because he needed to pull ayuso on those lesser sections as this allows Ayuso to hop over Rodriguez. (Same way how Roglic took 15seconds on Remco).

Also the gap to lopez is 1m36, besides the TT where he stupidly lost 20seconds or more, i don't see any other place where he could have done better with his current way of riding.

I agree with this. As I see it asking Almeida to positioning himself is like asking Remco to sprint.

I am pretty sure that Almeida not following wheel easily has some other reason than inexperience, stupidity or nonchalance.

I challenge people to find another rider always top 10 that hasn't gotten a scratch in a race for two years. At age 24 no less.

He seems risk averse overall be it descending, pacing or what he says in interviews. Looking at his numbers constantly.

Comes off as a bit nervous to my eyes. And peculiar. (The day I understand Almeida riding and motives I'll probably stop being a fan )

 

[Sciatic]

Congratulations to Thymen Arensma for winning queen stage.

Highly anticipated stage especially considering what happened on stage 14. Was a nice stage to watch.

In my opinion JV did what they had to do. Went hard on penultimate climb and had two cyclists up the road for tactical purposes. On the ultimate climb they went all in on the hardest section. A select group of favorites was left. Roglič did an acceleration. It wasn't enough to drop Evenepoel. Cyclist like Mas and especially López not prepared to take a turn. JV not having a cyclist to help Roglič on such terrain. At this point it was more or less all over. If Evenepoel didn't crack on hardest section and as nobody was prepared to take a turn. He would not on easier parts. If organizer wanted more action they would need to make the final 15 km or so of the stage harder.

Select group would just sit on Rogličes wheel for as long as possible and after to attack. Roglič saved the whole situation, for him, by moving back and to live to fight another day. The role of Kuss was then taken by Evenepoel. Although Mas and López eventually attacked. That didn't make much difference. Stage win was out of reach for López. Roglič stomped a bit to take 15 seconds on Evenepoel. By attacking on a small steep section just before the finish line. Hence overall still a rather good weekend for Roglič. Took more than a minute from Evenepoel.

Agree with all the above. I thought it was an intriguing watch because I couldn’t tell who might have legs to attack or who might drop, and the Superman-Mas attacks spiced things up. No big -highlight-reel explosions, which seems to be what many folks are disappointed about. What’s ironic is that if there had been NO gaps on Saturday’s stage (all GC together) then today’s 15 second gain by Roglic would have generated much more excitement in “cracks in the armor” “maybe it’s not over yet after all” reactions. But Saturday’s result changed the expectations for today.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Sciatic

Indeed. For stage 15 i would say that bigger time gains could happen if at least one of the top 3 would crack at the beginning of the ultimate climb. As that didn't happen. Not much one could do. Beyond maybe some desperate attempts to no avail.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Still i would say that Evenepoel was a good substitute for Kuss today. Considering nobody from the big 3 cracked at the beginning of the climb. And hence they just had to somehow pedal to the finish line. Knowing not much one can do to gain some heaps of additional time.

Evenepoel has already almost as much time on the front for Roglič this Vuelta as Kuss has in the last two and a half years

 

[CyclistAbi]

On top of that i feel it's safe to say Rogličes high altitude preparation for this race was next to none.

Evenepoel has already almost as much time on the front for Roglič this Vuelta as Kuss has in the last two and a half years

Just don't go hating now. Some Roglstomp is needed one way or another.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Rather be happy Evenepoel lost only 15 seconds today.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's a side of Roglic i don't really like, and it's not the first time i've seen some unsportsmanlike racing of him. This really reminded me of when he was trailing Rohan Dennis by 4 minutes i think in the Harrogate WCC ITT. Dennis passed him by with still i think 15k to go, and suddenly he started getting in Dennis' slipstream and trying to overtake him again, while he at that point was a non-factor. He was just trolling Dennis, since he wasn't even getting into the top 10 at that point. To add insult to injury, he actually sprinted next to Dennis when they were about to cross the finishline. That's just poor and pathetic in my book. Today, i'd have no issue if he attacked Evenepoel before the finish, in case he had at least tried to do some work in chasing Mas, who was a threat to him before he was to Evenepoel. Yeah, sorry, not a fan of this behavior. Unfitting a ''great champion''. If you want to wheelsuck your way up a climb, and you feel you need to attack the rider who's been doing your job, by all means but don't expect a thumbs up from me.