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Oh I even missed this post. I already made my point earlier but your last sentence pretty much sums up my take on your post.
Go watch a Hollywood movie where the underdog suddenly deus-ex-machina's to glamorous victory riding into the sunset with a hot chick, while we enjoy reality and watch a race where the strongest rider wins.
Again, note that the team actually have seemed genuinely happy for eachother everyday, regardless of who wins, so maybe, just maybe they're cool with it?
Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
I have no idea why you would think my name is Francis.
That aside, you said:
and
So who do you mean as clowns that are Kuss haters? Where have you seen anyone "cheering for Kuss to lose"?
Sustain your accusation, or withdraw it.
Any chance Jumbo Visma employ a technique like they used against Pogacar in the TDF two years ago? First, Vingegaard attack and make Sepp try to follow, and then attack with Roglic and make Sepp try and follow and so forth, finally wearing Sepp out? Maybe Sepp should pay a visit to the Bahrain hotel tonight and see if Landa is willing to help cover the attacks?
Should be an interesting day tomorrow.
Should be an interesting day tomorrow.
Yes, it's a take, but it's a take actually founded in a love for the sport and following it for many decades. Yes - gifting happens in Cycling, but it's never unproblematic. Just look at the amount of flack WvA got for letting LaPorte win Gent-Wevelgem. Or basically any time a rider very clearly gifts the victory to someone obviously weaker. Gifting a win is not a sign of respect, it is - simultaneously - both a noble gesture, patronizing, and something that devalues the competition. I would personally love to see Sepp Kuss win - he's a fantastic domestique, seems like a really nice guy and it would be a fantastic fairy-tale story - the kind of story that makes me love Cycling, despite it's many issues. But this the Vuelta - one of the toughest and greatest Cycling races. The idea that Roglic or Vingegaard should just give him the win is to me frankly just weird and shows a monumental disrespect for the race and the fans of the race. Many (most?) of us are here to watch the best riders in the world compete against each other - not hold hands while they cross the finish line.
That being said - I don't think it is wrong if people think that it is most correct for a team captain to let their loyal domestique take race wins (even huge ones such as a monument or GT). I do not agree, but I can absolutely respect that opinion, if it is honestly held. But - especially with the more virulent comments - I'm far from convinced that is the case.
Would english-speaking forums/twitter be as angry as they are right now if Vingegaard/Roglic were American / British and Sepp Kuss was Danish/Slovenian/Spanish/Belgian/Dutch/French?
Maybe (and as I said, if this is your thinking, I respect that). But I am 100% sure that every one of the English/American journalists shooting their mouths right now would have a completely different attitude if the situation was reversed (their own comments in the past is evidence enough). And I'm also pretty sure that a significant amount of the outrage on english-speaking social media would be nonexistent. I think it is perfectly fine to want your nation to win (I'm not seeing a lot of the Danish users here being unhappy right now), but the virulent hatred against riders who are basically doing what they are paid to do - which is race - because of nationalist sentiment is ugly.
And yes - I think Vingegaard and Roglic and Jumbo Visma are showing Kuss respect. If they did not respect him or if they did not believe he could actually win, Vingegaard or Roglic would simply have told Kuss to drill the final climb at the front of the peloton to gain them the stage win (and almost certainly, the jersey). And I'm fairly sure that Kuss would have done so if ordered, because that is his job (not all riders would follow such an order, but Kuss does not strike me as someone who would refuse). It has happened many tmes before (Froome has already been mentioned, but he is far from the only example). JV is not doing that. They chose instead to allow Kuss to ride as a protected rider and are giving him a fair shot at the once-in-a-lifetime chance of winning a Grand Tour.
They're not gifting him an underserved Grand Tour win, but they are allowing him a chance to take it, if he has the strength to do so.
We'll find out tomorrow.
Funny posts and so much good stuff. It's interesting to see Wout Poels so high today, he was Sepp Kuss before Sepp Kuss in many ways.
What I'm witnessing is weird to me, so JV put aside, I'm all-in for Landa: he's 5th, sandwiched between Ayuso and Mas, he's the old dog and he showed that he can still bite. One last fight. I like the scenario when he finishes the first Spaniard at La Vuelta, says sayonara, leave on top. Allez Mikel!!!
I like to see Remco fight for everything, for his fans it may be painful considering the expectations. If nothing else, I like him more: he wants to win every bike race that he enters and he's sticking to it. With he and Pogacar, it's a golden age. That's why I love cycling. Get another one Remco!
What I'm witnessing is weird to me, so JV put aside, I'm all-in for Landa: he's 5th, sandwiched between Ayuso and Mas, he's the old dog and he showed that he can still bite. One last fight. I like the scenario when he finishes the first Spaniard at La Vuelta, says sayonara, leave on top. Allez Mikel!!!
I like to see Remco fight for everything, for his fans it may be painful considering the expectations. If nothing else, I like him more: he wants to win every bike race that he enters and he's sticking to it. With he and Pogacar, it's a golden age. That's why I love cycling. Get another one Remco!
It's quite funny that you are accusing me of speculating only to follow up with a bunch of speculation about what Vingegaard and Roglic should or should not have done. Unless, of course, you work for JV and have access to their team bus, but I rather doubt that.
I'll lurk or not, as I feel like irrespective of your sage advice.
ManicJack
BANNED
I call complete BS on that one. I was given a warning last week from S Haines for harassment by simply questioning another posters love affair with a particular individual. LS is over the top and it's pretty sad. Just saying.
What does this even mean? You think they want Kuss to win because they 'like' him better than the other guys?
Do they fanboy for WVA or MVDP?
Remco or Pog?
do tell
this debate is exhausting.
I think i am almost done with it
but.
lol
People (Old schoolers mainly) are mad because these 2 dudes are breaking the #1 unwritten rule in cycling
DONT ATTACK YOUR TEAMMATE
Gawd, i hope Sepp doesn't flat somewhere near the finale anytime soon!!
I think i am almost done with it
but.
lol
People (Old schoolers mainly) are mad because these 2 dudes are breaking the #1 unwritten rule in cycling
DONT ATTACK YOUR TEAMMATE
Gawd, i hope Sepp doesn't flat somewhere near the finale anytime soon!!
Congratulations to Primož Roglič for winning on Angliru.
Rather short but very very sweet stage. Hopefully Sepp got just as sweet cake for his birthday at the finish line. If not then Landa helping him to keep the leaders jersey will do too. Landa surprised by asserting himself in front of the JV three leaders. Roglič wanting to win and setting a pace up the climb only Jonas could follow. The rest of the riders in rather big difficulty today and no match for being in a contention for a stage win. JV as a team doing a good job at controlling the breakaway. All three still want to win the overall and will do everything in their power to achieve that. Said that, you got to hand it to JV, as this looks like a reverse Movistar tactics. Tactically they are perfect!
Rather short but very very sweet stage. Hopefully Sepp got just as sweet cake for his birthday at the finish line. If not then Landa helping him to keep the leaders jersey will do too. Landa surprised by asserting himself in front of the JV three leaders. Roglič wanting to win and setting a pace up the climb only Jonas could follow. The rest of the riders in rather big difficulty today and no match for being in a contention for a stage win. JV as a team doing a good job at controlling the breakaway. All three still want to win the overall and will do everything in their power to achieve that. Said that, you got to hand it to JV, as this looks like a reverse Movistar tactics. Tactically they are perfect!
Call me naive, but I believe that Sepp will be atop the podium on Sunday. Based on interviews after the race Jonas will be content with Sepp winning. Primoz, however, appears to want the road to decide. But Primoz is 1:08 down. Unless Sepp has a major problem that margin should be enough. Primoz would then have to beat Jonas as well. I don't think he can.
The JV management would be wise to direct that, barring a collapse, Sepp be the winner. Having a US champion would be a marketing team's dream. Go Sepp!
The JV management would be wise to direct that, barring a collapse, Sepp be the winner. Having a US champion would be a marketing team's dream. Go Sepp!
Well it was the old 1,2,3 from Jumbo, but otherwise Bahrain showed themselves as good secondplacers, Cian impressed and young Lenny VE after a short stint off the front did not disappoint.
Overall, much as was expected, Remco got KOM points, Ayuso could not hang on to the end, but Almeid yoyo-ed as per normal.
Be interesting to see what happens on day 2 in the mountains and a stage over 120 km (phew! a monster stage!)
Overall, much as was expected, Remco got KOM points, Ayuso could not hang on to the end, but Almeid yoyo-ed as per normal.
Be interesting to see what happens on day 2 in the mountains and a stage over 120 km (phew! a monster stage!)
Sepp will probably be more expensive to hold onto after this, especially if he holds on. If I were team management I'd pray for a breakdown.
The last couple of days make total sense if you pretend that Roglic isn't on Team Jumbo but instead is on another team. Vinge took time a couple of days ago to leapfrog Primoz and today he followed Roglic's wheel without taking a pull. The key for Sepp is staying on Primoz's wheel. Vinge is going to make sure that Primoz does not win this vuleta.
My guess is Primoz is moving on from Jumbo after this year. If Vinge is "forced" to win this year's Vuelta, I bet Kuss is given leadership for next year's Giro.
My guess is Primoz is moving on from Jumbo after this year. If Vinge is "forced" to win this year's Vuelta, I bet Kuss is given leadership for next year's Giro.
The fault for this situation with Roglic and Vingegaard breathing in Kuss' neck is entirely within JV.
I mean: why did they bring Roglic and Vingegaard in the first place? Both have won a GT and are supposed to spend time with their families on the beach or at the swimming pool (Kuss doesn't have kids so he should ride the Vuelta ofcourse).
JV could have brought Kuss with a full team backing him, and WvA as a decoy team leader. We would have gotten a very exciting Vuelta with Kuss, Ayuso and Landa within a minute, and if Roglic and Vingegaard were not there, Remco would probably have tried to get himself back in the GT mix as well.
But none of that... we have to deal with a tricky balanced pecking order intrigue within JV between guys who can win this when they flick their finger (Roglic and Vingegaard) but say they want the win for their team mate, and Kuss who has to suffer through attacks of his own team mates if he wants to get the biggest win of his career.
It looks like cycling SM, but the alternative (gifting him the win) isn't looking any better.
I mean: why did they bring Roglic and Vingegaard in the first place? Both have won a GT and are supposed to spend time with their families on the beach or at the swimming pool (Kuss doesn't have kids so he should ride the Vuelta ofcourse).
JV could have brought Kuss with a full team backing him, and WvA as a decoy team leader. We would have gotten a very exciting Vuelta with Kuss, Ayuso and Landa within a minute, and if Roglic and Vingegaard were not there, Remco would probably have tried to get himself back in the GT mix as well.
But none of that... we have to deal with a tricky balanced pecking order intrigue within JV between guys who can win this when they flick their finger (Roglic and Vingegaard) but say they want the win for their team mate, and Kuss who has to suffer through attacks of his own team mates if he wants to get the biggest win of his career.
It looks like cycling SM, but the alternative (gifting him the win) isn't looking any better.
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Nobody believed Kuss would be in Red, and WvA has other plans than the Vuelta.
Lots of the 'old schoolers' should probably refrain from grandstanding a bit too much here, i.e. almost all of those pundits & commentators come from eras of cycling where many 'rules' didn't matter at all, namely the anti-dope ones.
I mean seeing Bruyneel, Horner & co act all high & mighty over the 'code' of cycling regarding how teammates should treat each other is... a bit funny. It's not just about the clinical stuff either, i.e. bullying & a cult of "le boss" was the norm back on the old days.
And... it's only cycling. Pro sports is here for our entertainment, i.e. it's not the United Nations. If Rog & Vinge want to fight each other, so be it! But it must be fair.
It is very strange though, to:
1. claim you are a team and it's a team sport;
2. laud and applaud your team mates and say things like 'I couldn't have done without them'
3. ride with 3 team mates and not allowing one of them, on his birthday, to be on the finish photo;
4. claim you really want Kuss to win but you're still riding away from him;
I cannot understand the argument that Roglic and Vingegaard are paid to win and thus they have all the rights to win: It reminds me of inventors or biologists, where the guy in the lab or the field discovers something, and the head of staff / lead explorer / money backer writes the paper / gets the patent / the newly discovered species is named after him while they could have put the lab guy / field guy in the spotlight.
It is, from a neutral observer's perspective, very entertaining if they race each other, ofcourse (much more than seeing 3 riders together at the finish, all with hands in the air and maybe even a fist bumping the chest in true gorilla style), but it just doesn't make sense, whatever they do.
Even if you argue it's common sense to keep racing eachother, the race is over. The outcome is purely determined within the JV team. If they decide to race for it, that is as much a team / political decision as if they don't race it. Because they aren't racing completely against each other: they protect / cover each other's moves, so it really isn't, and can't be, a pure race / showing who is the best, especially not with how they raced the previous 2 weeks.
1. claim you are a team and it's a team sport;
2. laud and applaud your team mates and say things like 'I couldn't have done without them'
3. ride with 3 team mates and not allowing one of them, on his birthday, to be on the finish photo;
4. claim you really want Kuss to win but you're still riding away from him;
I cannot understand the argument that Roglic and Vingegaard are paid to win and thus they have all the rights to win: It reminds me of inventors or biologists, where the guy in the lab or the field discovers something, and the head of staff / lead explorer / money backer writes the paper / gets the patent / the newly discovered species is named after him while they could have put the lab guy / field guy in the spotlight.
It is, from a neutral observer's perspective, very entertaining if they race each other, ofcourse (much more than seeing 3 riders together at the finish, all with hands in the air and maybe even a fist bumping the chest in true gorilla style), but it just doesn't make sense, whatever they do.
Even if you argue it's common sense to keep racing eachother, the race is over. The outcome is purely determined within the JV team. If they decide to race for it, that is as much a team / political decision as if they don't race it. Because they aren't racing completely against each other: they protect / cover each other's moves, so it really isn't, and can't be, a pure race / showing who is the best, especially not with how they raced the previous 2 weeks.
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Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
So you think it is ok to make blanket accusations against users of the forum, without being willing to substantiate them.
Noted.
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I think the rational behind why it's right they race for the win amongst themselves is a) they are all so close on GC, so nobody is in a domestique role, but are allies, which is different b) were they to decide to let Kuss win, chase down any attacks to protect him when they can't counter, it would totally kill the racing more than Jumbo has already killed it, which is no good for the Vuelta c) there is no feasable threat to Jumbo's victory and total hegemony over the field (ie., 1-2-3 podium), d) Sepp isn't the strongest on the team, got into the lead by team strategy from a break, not legs, and is not the team leader (at any rate not sole leader, for there are 3), e) as such each has the right to try to win the Vuelta, so long as it doesn't compromise c.
For those harkening back to the "old school" days, when everybody respected the unwritten pact that you don't attack the guy on your team in the leader's jersey, there's another side of the story. Unfortunately it overlooks the fact that in those times a domestique (which is what Sepp is), was never allowed to take the win from his team leader. So there was no leeway to jockey an opportunity. You rode for your captain to make sure he won, never getting a chance of your own, and that was that. Plus there were times when the deal was off, as when Roche attacked Visentini in the 87 Giro or Hinault attacked Lemond in the 86 Tour. The novel, but disputable, approach of La Vie Claire at the time, was that there was no designated "leader". The one who could win on the occasion was permitted to go for it within reason. And this seems to be the philosophy Jumbo-Visma has opted to employ, while sweeping the podium. For them and the race it's a win-win situation, not so much if you think Kuss should have unwaivering support from his teammates, in which case the race suffers.
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