Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2023, stage 17: Ribadesella/Ribadeseya - Altu de l’Angliru, 124.4k

[RobertCrawley]

I am such a fanboy of this guy:

Sepptimus: "I thought I'd lost the jersey. I wasn't really even sad because I gave it the best I could on the climb."

 

[micax]

Long time lurker with some thoughts.

Judging by the general attitude, I'm pretty sure there is no way Vingegaard and Roglic win over people's hearts in this situation. If they race, people act like many of you are doing now. If both had focused on neutralizing the stage for Kuss, then people would be castigating them for not racing. Either way, they'll be criticized.

The criticism that Roglic chose to stay with Kuss yesterday and that Vingegaard should have done the same today is rather absurd. Roglic did not chose to "help" Kuss - he tried to attack, but could not bridge the gap to Vingegaard. If he could have, he would have. He just did not have the legs yesterday. Today Vingegaard had the legs to follow Roglic. Personally, I think he could probably also have dropped Roglic, but chose not to - 1) because following on Roglic's wheel to gap him at the end would have been an actual nasty move, 2) Vingegaard already has 2 stage wins - no need to be greedy, and 3) I think he honestly doesn't mind giving Kuss the Vuelta win.

I think it's weird that people try to find ulterior motives in everything these guys say, rather than just accept that - perhaps - they might be telling the truth? Both can be telling the truth and race like they did today (and yesterday).

I think Vingegaard mainly wanted the stage win yesterday - I don't think he expected to gain so much time yesterday as he did - as many have noticed, this came out as much from the other teams being weak/tactical than pure strength over Kuss. And I think his ride today shows he is in two minds - on the one hand, he can't stay with Kuss when he is obviously stronger - that would make the gift very obvious (and Kuss doesn't want gifts), but on the other hand, he's not willing to push 110% to get the win.

It'll be interesting to see how the final important GC stage goes, but I think Vingegaard (and Roglic for that matter) are riding the way they do, not only because they have huge egos (which you must have to some extent, to be a champion), but also out of respect for Kuss. Think to the alternative scenario, with Roglic and Vingegaard both riding purely as domestiques for Kuss. I don't think anyone (other than Americans) would love that. Kuss would win, yes, but there'd always be a huge asterix next to the win and people would say it is undeserved (i.e., he only won because Roglic and Vingegaard let him). If Kuss manages to defend the jersey tomorrow, people will still put a small asterix by his name but at least no one can say that the win is not deserved.

 

[Andy262]

The last two days have been utter f*ckery from JV. Losing respect badly here.

 

[Rackham]

Having just watched the end of the stage this evening, I am absolutely shocked that there is anyone who follows cycling who thinks that the behaviour of Roglic and Vinegaard today - and most importantly by proxy the TJV DS - was acceptable.

TJV clearly have the race, and the top 3 positions in the bag at this point. They have the 3 best climbers in the race and all are a reasonable distance away from their nearest rivals.

To drop their team mate in the red jersey at that point on the stage (i.e. not from a mixed group lower down the mountain) was an absolute disgrace and reflects extremely badly on those involved - Primoz Roglic and his DS being most culpable imo. There was no tactical nuance or uncertainty going on here -

Cycling is a team sport. Kuss sacrifices his own ambitions for stage wins etc every year across multiple grand tours in support of his team leaders - as expected. To rewrite this fundamental principle of cycling - and essentially declare it an individual sport where it is every man for himself as Roglic has done at the end of this stage - is complete nonsense.

Kuss has done what is required of him in the ITT and these mountain stages thus far. Clearly if he gets dropped from a mixed group halfway down the climb noone is going to expect Roglic or Vinge to hold back and ride for him. If that happens then fair enough. But that was not the situation today, and looking at the upcoming stages and Kuss' form that is hugely unlikely to happen.

I have always been a fan of Roglic but he has shown his true colours today imo.

A complete and utter disgrace.

It's way too late for that. Can you go back in time & reverse the result yesterday when Vingegaard mugged both Kuss & Roglič & gained a 'free' minute with his surprise attack? (which certainly wasn't reflective of their physical levels). Or was that okay because it was for a 'friend'?

The only way to make it fair was to allow Rog to attack on the Angliru. The big sticking point here is I imagine no one expected him to actually pull it off (from that far out) & win the stage like that.

So no one this evening gets to talk about "team work" & criticize Rog for his lack of empathy towards Kuss. Not when the status-quo had been nuked 24 hours earlier. What's Rog supposed to do? Just let Vinge win the Vuelta? Because that was exactly going to happen anyway, with or without Rog's attack today, i.e. yesterday's move by Vinge made sure of it.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Judging by the general attitude, I'm pretty sure there is no way Vingegaard and Roglic win over people's hearts in this situation.

Bring on Jumbo faking a Kuss explotion tomorrow, with him dropping on the second last climb and being towed to the finish by Kelderman or Valter, making him lose 3 3 1/2 minute (so he stays ahead of Ayoso) and see them spin the "see we couldn't trust Sepp stay at 100% the whole race" propaganda.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah it's ridiculous to pretend Roglic attacked Kuss but Vingegaard didn't.

 

[Gratemans]

Not at all, were they further down on time and forced into a domestique role. That not being the case, they are allowed to race.

PS. I'd be happy were Kuss to win, but not if it was decided at the table. And I doubt even Kuss would want to win that way.

This. Yes, one team being this dominant might suck. But at least I respect how they handle it: let em duke it out on the road. Got good legs? Go ahead and attack.
I prefer that over watching a staged, fake show to hand Kuss the Vuelta.
Like you said, I highly doubt he would want to win it that way.

Blythe and Kelly throwing tantrums is hilarious and kind of pathetic at the same time.

 

[saunaking]

Sean Kelly on;


He looks like he's about to lamp someone.

Can somebody translate this please?

 

[joe_papp]

It'll be interesting to see how the final important GC stage goes, but I think Vingegaard (and Roglic for that matter) are riding the way they do, not only because they have huge egos (which you must have to some extent, to be a champion), but also out of respect for Kuss.

Right. They're attacking their teammate and race leader because they "respect" him. lol what a take!

 

[Rackham]

Yeah it's ridiculous to pretend Roglic attacked Kuss but Vingegaard didn't.

I think the drama is hilarious but what's really going on is Jumbo have simply told their riders to fight. That's it. Why? I don't know, but I can imagine the 'fun' involved here is way better than Jumbo simply shutting down the race & riding to the finish in Madrid, all in formation behind Kuss.

It makes for better tv entertainment. As long as it's fair & all involved get the freedom to fight for their chances (& frankly Jumbo risk nothing in GC anyway), then people should enjoy the show.

It's not every day a team rides a GT with 3 guys top 3, so 'normal bike racing etiquette' shouldn't really apply here either.

Just my two cents.

 

[saunaking]

Long time lurker with some thoughts.

Judging by the general attitude, I'm pretty sure there is no way Vingegaard and Roglic win over people's hearts in this situation. If they race, people act like many of you are doing now. If both had focused on neutralizing the stage for Kuss, then people would be castigating them for not racing. Either way, they'll be criticized.

The criticism that Roglic chose to stay with Kuss yesterday and that Vingegaard should have done the same today is rather absurd. Roglic did not chose to "help" Kuss - he tried to attack, but could not bridge the gap to Vingegaard. If he could have, he would have. He just did not have the legs yesterday. Today Vingegaard had the legs to follow Roglic. Personally, I think he could probably also have dropped Roglic, but chose not to - 1) because following on Roglic's wheel to gap him at the end would have been an actual nasty move, 2) Vingegaard already has 2 stage wins - no need to be greedy, and 3) I think he honestly doesn't mind giving Kuss the Vuelta win.

I think it's weird that people try to find ulterior motives in everything these guys say, rather than just accept that - perhaps - they might be telling the truth? Both can be telling the truth and race like they did today (and yesterday).

I think Vingegaard mainly wanted the stage win yesterday - I don't think he expected to gain so much time yesterday as he did - as many have noticed, this came out as much from the other teams being weak/tactical than pure strength over Kuss. And I think his ride today shows he is in two minds - on the one hand, he can't stay with Kuss when he is obviously stronger - that would make the gift very obvious (and Kuss doesn't want gifts), but on the other hand, he's not willing to push 110% to get the win.

It'll be interesting to see how the final important GC stage goes, but I think Vingegaard (and Roglic for that matter) are riding the way they do, not only because they have huge egos (which you must have to some extent, to be a champion), but also out of respect for Kuss. Think to the alternative scenario, with Roglic and Vingegaard both riding purely as domestiques for Kuss. I don't think anyone (other than Americans) would love that. Kuss would win, yes, but there'd always be a huge asterix next to the win and people would say it is undeserved (i.e., he only won because Roglic and Vingegaard let him). If Kuss manages to defend the jersey tomorrow, people will still put a small asterix by his name but at least no one can say that the win is not deserved.

We need more of this guy in the forum!

 

[DaveJones2]

Long time lurker with some thoughts.

Judging by the general attitude, I'm pretty sure there is no way Vingegaard and Roglic win over people's hearts in this situation. If they race, people act like many of you are doing now. If both had focused on neutralizing the stage for Kuss, then people would be castigating them for not racing. Either way, they'll be criticized.

The criticism that Roglic chose to stay with Kuss yesterday and that Vingegaard should have done the same today is rather absurd. Roglic did not chose to "help" Kuss - he tried to attack, but could not bridge the gap to Vingegaard. If he could have, he would have. He just did not have the legs yesterday. Today Vingegaard had the legs to follow Roglic. Personally, I think he could probably also have dropped Roglic, but chose not to - 1) because following on Roglic's wheel to gap him at the end would have been an actual nasty move, 2) Vingegaard already has 2 stage wins - no need to be greedy, and 3) I think he honestly doesn't mind giving Kuss the Vuelta win.

I think it's weird that people try to find ulterior motives in everything these guys say, rather than just accept that - perhaps - they might be telling the truth? Both can be telling the truth and race like they did today (and yesterday).

I think Vingegaard mainly wanted the stage win yesterday - I don't think he expected to gain so much time yesterday as he did - as many have noticed, this came out as much from the other teams being weak/tactical than pure strength over Kuss. And I think his ride today shows he is in two minds - on the one hand, he can't stay with Kuss when he is obviously stronger - that would make the gift very obvious (and Kuss doesn't want gifts), but on the other hand, he's not willing to push 110% to get the win.

It'll be interesting to see how the final important GC stage goes, but I think Vingegaard (and Roglic for that matter) are riding the way they do, not only because they have huge egos (which you must have to some extent, to be a champion), but also out of respect for Kuss. Think to the alternative scenario, with Roglic and Vingegaard both riding purely as domestiques for Kuss. I don't think anyone (other than Americans) would love that. Kuss would win, yes, but there'd always be a huge asterix next to the win and people would say it is undeserved (i.e., he only won because Roglic and Vingegaard let him). If Kuss manages to defend the jersey tomorrow, people will still put a small asterix by his name but at least no one can say that the win is not deserved.

I have to say I completely disagree with at least 50% of what you have written.

There is far less nuance than you are implying into the correct behaviour of Kuss' teammates at the precise point they dropped him on this stage. This is completely different to the completely unrealistic scenario you paint of Roglic and Vinge riding as domestiques. Nobody in their right mind is going to expect Roglic or Vinge to "ride for Kuss" halfway down the mountain in a mixed GC group, or to hang back and help him if someone like Landa attacked and Kuss couldn't follow. Not on this stage, nor any upcoming stage. That's not the point here.

 

[Red Rick]

I think the drama is hilarious but what's really going on is Jumbo have simply told their riders to fight. That's it. Why? I don't know, but I can imagine the 'fun' involved here is way better than Jumbo simply shutting down the race & riding to the finish in Madrid, all in formation behind Kuss.

It makes for better tv entertainment. As long as it's fair & all involved get the freedom to fight for their chances (& frankly Jumbo risk nothing in GC anyway), then people should enjoy the show.

It's not every day a team rides a GT with 3 guys top 3, so 'normal bike racing etiquette' shouldn't really apply here either.

Just my two cents.

It's clearly not a free for all given that Roglic and Kuss weren't pacing behind Vingegaard on the Tourmalet or Bejes.

 

[saunaking]

Blythe and Kelly throwing tantrums is hilarious and kind of pathetic at the same time.

Why is it pathetic? They have been in the sport for 30 & 50 years or something.
They are giving their opinions based on their experiences.

 

[Rackham]

It's clearly not a free for all given that Roglic and Kuss weren't pacing behind Vingegaard on the Tourmalet or Bejes.

Yep, that's the downside. Yesterday's mugging by Vingegaard (for Van Hooydonck!) is very questionable because Kuss said they were going for the stage with Rog. So something happened there & triggered current events. Especially the time gap, which was crazy (& the only way people could justify it was by pretending he was stronger anyway).

Team bosses could step in now though & shut this down whenever they want. So we'll see tomorrow.

 

[Oldermanish]

Long time lurker with some thoughts.

Judging by the general attitude, I'm pretty sure there is no way Vingegaard and Roglic win over people's hearts in this situation. If they race, people act like many of you are doing now. If both had focused on neutralizing the stage for Kuss, then people would be castigating them for not racing. Either way, they'll be criticized.

The criticism that Roglic chose to stay with Kuss yesterday and that Vingegaard should have done the same today is rather absurd. Roglic did not chose to "help" Kuss - he tried to attack, but could not bridge the gap to Vingegaard. If he could have, he would have. He just did not have the legs yesterday. Today Vingegaard had the legs to follow Roglic. Personally, I think he could probably also have dropped Roglic, but chose not to - 1) because following on Roglic's wheel to gap him at the end would have been an actual nasty move, 2) Vingegaard already has 2 stage wins - no need to be greedy, and 3) I think he honestly doesn't mind giving Kuss the Vuelta win.

Your first paragraph made sense. The second is pure, uninformed speculation and leads to the misunderstanding of "fans"; most of whom don't ride much and probably never raced.
Vingo wants to win. Roglic wants to win. Kuss would love to win, but is paid as a domestique and operates under orders from the DS. The other two are allowed to set pace to gain advantage over the competition and not compromise the overall prospects for a win. As it stands only a complete collapse by any of these 3 JV guys would allow another competitor into the podium zone. They should be able to race each other as long as they don't bring adversaries along for a podium-threatening position. If they don't; the wailing fanbase would be disappointed and turn off their TVs.

Yesterday Jonas attacked when Primoz was supposed to pursue the stage win (because of prior time gifted to Jonas). Primoz was then challenged to close the gap with Kuss upon Jonas' attack, but the rule of No passengers shut that down and Kuss was floundering to keep pace anyway and Primoz took note of it. Roglic knew he was not going to gain much and to further pursue Jonas would've done some harm. The gap Jonas enjoyed to Primoz was an outright gift from he and Kuss. When they responded on that stage they both cut Vingo's gap in half in 2km without passengers. That's exceptional.

Today Vindegaard did what he should have; stay on Primoz's wheel. Sepp dropped off and, if I were the DS I'd balance the bad press for Jonas not dropping back to aid Kuss against the advantage of gaining further time. How that was decided we don't know but trying to portray either of the two strongest guys as heroes or villians is a conceit of prejudice.
Keep lurking, would be my advice for now.

 

[JosefK]

Yeah it's ridiculous to pretend Roglic attacked Kuss but Vingegaard didn't.

Vingegaard twice. Actually, three times, as today was also an attack. Rog's attack gave him cover to go for the red jersey. Not making a judgment, just an observation.

 

[DaveJones2]

It's way too late for that. Can you go back in time & reverse the result yesterday when Vingegaard mugged both Kuss & Roglič & gained a 'free' minute with his surprise attack? (which certainly wasn't reflective of their physical levels). Or was that okay because it was for a 'friend'?

The only way to make it fair was to allow Rog to attack on the Angliru. The big sticking point here is I imagine no one expected him to actually pull it off (from that far out) & win the stage like that.

So no one this evening gets to talk about "team work" & criticize Rog for his lack of empathy towards Kuss. Not when the status-quo had been nuked 24 hours earlier. What's Rog supposed to do? Just let Vinge win the Vuelta? Because that was exactly going to happen anyway, with or without Rog's attack today, i.e. yesterday's move by Vinge made sure of it.

The dynamic yesterday was completely different. Time gaps to rivals were different, and they were riding within a larger group. Letting Vinge head up to win the stage from the distance he was behind Kuss in GC was quite different to today.

 

[Gratemans]

Why is it pathetic? They have been in the sport for 30 & 50 years or something.
They are giving their opinions based on their experiences.

They obviously just are fanboying for Kuss to win. Yes they have been in the sport for ages. Yes, they are giving their opinions. Experience has nothing to do with being able to objectively analyse a race though.

Believe me, I'd love for Kuss to win it. And if he's the strongest, he will. If he's not, he won't. I'm convinced he'll be the first to say so as well.
Trying to put the blame on Roglic or Vingegaard is just madness imo. They're not seriously being attacked by any other team so it's just these three going mano a mano a mano. Like they should.
Anything else is just people coming up with false narratives of how Kuss is being stabbed in the back by his evil teammates. Ridiculous. And kinda disrespectful towards Kuss even in my opinion.

 

[FroomeWagon]

Why even have teams for grand tours? Maybe riders could form alliances with other riders but in general, every man for himself.

 

[Bolder]

So what is a "good" outcome? Vingegaard is the best GC rider of the past two years. Let him race the way he wants tomorrow and he's likely to take red.

Even the whiff of "team orders" to orchestrate a Kuss victory means there will always be a "yes, but" attached to it. I'd be surprised if Jumbo go down that road. And I'd be surprised if Kuss would want that. So we're going to get a lot of PR spin if Vingegaard wins (barring a Remco style bonk from Kuss)

The one I really feel for is Roglic. He's probably going to have what should be a fourth Vuelta win snatched away.

 

[DaveJones2]

They should be able to race each other as long as they don't bring adversaries along for a podium-threatening position. If they don't; the wailing fanbase would be disappointed and turn off their TVs.

I'm just absolutely amazed that people think this is a sensible option in this context within any functional team - cycling or otherwise. TJV clearly had the top 3 GC Vuelta wrapped up towards the end of this stage. If Kuss were to have a random bad day or crash in the remaining stages and get dropped, both Rog and Vinge are there to make sure they still finish 1-2. They are so far ahead of any rivals that this is in no doubt whatsoever. Nobody is asking them to start collecting bottles.

At this precise point in the race / stage however, there is simply no justifiable reason for Kuss' teammates to start attacking his overall lead. Kuss is never going to get the opportunity to win a Grand Tour again in his career. He's turned himself inside out on many, many occasions & sacrificed his own ambition in doing so for both of them.

The correct outcome for TJV at this juncture is crystal clear for anyone that has any professional experience of working in a cohesive team, either as a leader or team member. If Kuss gets dropped by another team, then that's that, he's done. Until that happens, Roglic and Vinge should be riding in a manner that keeps him in red whilst ensuring they complete the 1-2-3. If Kuss in fact falls away, then I don't think anyone is going to complain if Vinge and Rog are allowed to race each other - that's a completely different dynamic to two multiple grand tour winners shafting a guy that has played such a fundamental role in their own successes.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Just so we hopefully all can agree on who is attacking when and whatnot's of today's Angliru stage.

Primoz attacked Bahrain with approx. 2.9k togo.
With ~2.3 km togo, TJV has thrown Bahrain, Sepp, Jonas and Primoz united once again.
At the 2K mark, no one is attacking.
Sepp just can't hold the wheel to his team mates any longer.

At the crucial point we are discussing is that no one is "attacking".

Furthermore: Jonas turns around at the moment. Should Jonas have waited at that moment? IMO would've been awkward, both due to the three of them all agree on "the strongest wins" treaty, partly due to no other competitors from other teams.

When it finally comes to the race, I enjoyed the bike race today - ie. apart from the fact that I would have liked to have seen all three of them go to the bottom of their reserves, and although since the Tourmalet stage in particular I sincerely cheered for Kuss and just hoped he could get away with it all, it was primarily because I saw him as the strongest of the three by then.
Yes, it is a painful tragedy for someone if the best supporting rider in the world does not get his prize. But I really sincerely believe that Kuss is most comfortable with a situation of the strongest guy of the 3 weeks stands on top of the podium in Madrid.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So what is a "good" outcome? Vingegaard is the best GC rider of the past two years. Let him race the way he wants tomorrow and he's likely to take red.

Even the whiff of "team orders" to orchestrate a Kuss victory means there will always be a "yes, but" attached to it. I'd be surprised if Jumbo go down that road. And I'd be surprised if Kuss would want that. So we're going to get a lot of PR spin if Vingegaard wins (barring a Remco style bonk from Kuss)

The one I really feel for is Roglic. He's probably going to have what should be a fourth Vuelta win snatched away.

What is a good outcome? Kuss has a 2018 Yates collapse, technical difficulties mean Adam Blythe is unable to contribute to the broadcast, and this endless debate about team orders and what the team should do, with loads of romanticists begging the team take away the only competition left in the race by turning this into exactly why F1 is garbage because they like Kuss, ends.

 

[tobydawq]

Keep lurking, would be my advice for now.

That's really not a very nice comment...