Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2023, stage 17: Ribadesella/Ribadeseya - Altu de l’Angliru, 124.4k

[Extinction]

They do get it, they're just blinded because the idea of selling Sepp as the underdog in an intra-Jumbo battle is the only story left in the Vuelta. I mean, it's hard to be the underdog when you're riding for a team that's riding roughshod over the race and destroying the mountain stages like this, but the wins that Sepp has compared to Rogla and Vingegaard mean that there is at least some kind of story there.

The other problem that they have is that Jumbo have managed to lose GCs by not controlling breaks before and giving the wrong rider time (Giro 2019), and by sitting in and trying to minimise effort to save energy for later, only to then afford others enough free energy to make them pay for it (Tour 2020), so they may be more wary of playing "defend Kuss' lead" in case the three GTs hit him and hit him hard, à la Simon Yates in the 2018 Giro or Tom Dumoulin in the 2015 Vuelta.

Rogla and Vingegaard may be scrapping over who is the one to pick up the pieces should Sepp falter... but they aren't about to not make gains just to keep Sepp protected, lest they themselves falter.

Exactly.

 

[Escarabajo]

The idea of letting the stronger win is not fair because Kuss has the third Tour in his legs domestiquing for their leaders. So it is not a straight fight IMHO. Even when he was in red he was domestiquing. They only considered him as a contender for the win after Tourmalet.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

The idea of letting the stronger win is not fair because Kuss has the third Tour in his legs domestiquing for their leaders. So it is not a straight fight IMHO. Even when he was in red he was domestiquing. They only considered him as a contender for the win after Tourmalet.

Charity and fairness are not the same thing.
Sport is predicated upon the principle that everyone tries to do their best, and the one who best combines ability, fitness, courage, luck, the favour of management, and tactical nous will win. That is the fair way of deciding a competition: fitness to compete.

Being charitable in most areas of life is highly commendable: in sport it is simply condescending.

 

[luckyboy]

Maybe Roglic is thinking about the future, like next year's Tour. He's seen Vingegaard rise to #1 in the team and now in the past week he has been forced to sit and let Vingegaard ride off twice and go past him in the GC. I don't know what Jumbo is planning for him next year but maybe it's like "Hey if I can show I can beat Vingegaard here then that proves something to the team".

Or maybe he just wanted the stage win and Vingegaard went along to 'mark' and keep the GC place without outright going on the attack himself.

 

[Rackham]

Sean Kelly on;

Vingegaard's interview: 'What a load of baloney, he knew what was happening on the mountain'.

Roglic's interview: 'He always just goes ya ya ya and doesn't really say anything'

He looks like he's about to lamp someone.

Blythe on Roglic: 'He doesn't have the decency or respect'

What a bunch of bitter t*ssers.

It's funny how Roglič should just submit & die as a GC contender. Because that's what's going on here, i.e. Rog wasn't just battling for the Vuelta, he was fighting for his 2024 season goal: the Tour de France. He's fighting to have a team & support for that goal. People (onlookers, journalists, influencers... youtubers even) were saying Ayuso was stronger. Mas was stronger. The situation was critical.

I'll also repeat the fact Vingegaard started the hostilities yesterday so all is fair.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Were on page 7, yet still time before this stage has even started.
Question is, will we reach page 8 before "Vuelta is over, Remco did it" comments?

OK, so we managed to flip to new pages. Although attempts to inflame another theme still sticks around like fly paper to a fly.

 

[will-10]

Honestly, thank god the Jumbo guys are allowed to race each other. This would have been a shambolic procession otherwise if Roglic and Jonas weren't allowed to go anywhere

 

[RobertCrawley]

It's apparent that some do not like Jumbo to begin with, and they seize this opportunity to trash the team.

But other bike racing fans appreciate that lots of people are actually trying to win the race. If it was a Sepp procession (Sepprocession), with Jonas and Rog acting as domestiques, criticisms would surely appear for that reason too.

 

[Escarabajo]

Charity and fairness are not the same thing.
Sport is predicated upon the principle that everyone tries to do their best, and the one who best combines ability, fitness, courage, luck, the favour of management, and tactical nous will win. That is the fair way of deciding a competition: fitness to compete.

Being charitable in most areas of life is highly commendable: in sport it is simply condescending.

I agree, but doesn't make what I said any less true!

 

[HelloDolly]

Jumbo Visma will win the race but lose the public

that was so unpalatable to watch ....attacking the red jersey

hate to watch it

Well done Sepp for hanging on

 

[HelloDolly]

Sepp talking back about working for Jonas and Roglic when called for but wants his chance

Such a shame

hope he finds another team asap

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Honestly, thank god the Jumbo guys are allowed to race each other. This would have been a shambolic procession otherwise if Roglic and Jonas weren't allowed to go anywhere

The «fairness issue» for me in the internal JV fight is that today was only the second time (the ITT) were the first time they were allowed to race each other. They didn’t race each other on Tourmalet and they didn’t race each other yesterday. Both these stages Kuss and Roglic gifted Vingegaard a lot of time just sitting on the wheel of the other GC guys.

 

[HelloDolly]

on better news Landa look very good

And Cian rode a great race

 

[Rackham]

It's apparently that some do not like Jumbo to begin with, and they seize this opportunity to trash the team.

But other bike racing fans appreciate that lots of people are actually trying to win the race. If it was a Sepp procession (Sepprocession), criticisms would surely appear for that reason too.

Sure.

Yesterday is still a bitter pill to swallow (Vingegaard's 1 minute gift) but all was fair today, i.e. it would have been obscene if Rog had been forbidden from attacking. The only B.S. is in the post-race statements (well mostly Vingegaard's because when he says he wants Kuss to win, what he really meant was "not if it means letting Roglič gain time on me").

Kuss is now collateral damage in a fratricidal intra-Jumbo fight between Rog & Vinge. Let's see if this continues because tomorrow could be quite interesting as well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The idea of letting the stronger win is not fair because Kuss has the third Tour in his legs domestiquing for their leaders. So it is not a straight fight IMHO. Even when he was in red he was domestiquing. They only considered him as a contender for the win after Tourmalet.

This is how Sky (at least for eight years or so) lost the 2011 Vuelta: because Chris Froome was such an unproven commodity, when he surprisingly found himself in red after the TT, they chose to use him as a domestique to the more proven Wiggins regardless, because Froome had seldom shown more than a couple of consecutive good days before, so they didn't trust him not to fall apart later. As a result, he was taking pulls in red on La Manzaneda - an otherwise somewhat unthreatening mountain, especially compared to San Lorenzo or Angliru - and time lost on that stage as a result wound up costing them the GC - until of course years down the line Cobo got scrubbed.

Jumbo Visma will win the race but lose the public

that was so unpalatable to watch ....attacking the red jersey

hate to watch it

Well done Sepp for hanging on

For me, them letting the others attack and hopefully defeat Sepp is the only thing Jumbo have going for them.

 

[HelloDolly]

Oh is it fu**ing charity when Sepp Kuss riders for Jonas or Roglic and helps them win a GT? No its not so the argument that they not help Kuss is rubbish

.its a team sport but JV are not riding as a team ..they are riding as arrogant individuals - Roglic and Vingegaard are

 

[HelloDolly]

For me, them letting the others attack and hopefully defeat Sepp is the only thing Jumbo have going for them.

well it takes all sorts i suppose

 

[Lequack]

There was no reason today not to wait for Sepp. I mean they were sure to get the stage win either way, even if Landa cought on. So just like yesterday they only took time on Kuss for reason whatsoever. Vinge even looked and looked at Kuss. I am not liking this style of racing much.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

well it takes all sorts i suppose

Even without my personal dislike of Sepp, it's the only remaining vestige of a race we have.

 

[zlev11]

Sean Kelly on;

Vingegaard's interview: 'What a load of baloney, he knew what was happening on the mountain'.

Roglic's interview: 'He always just goes ya ya ya and doesn't really say anything'

He looks like he's about to lamp someone.

Blythe on Roglic: 'He doesn't have the decency or respect'

what's truly wild to see is Sean Kelly giving anything above the absolute bare minimum in his analysis and commentary

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I think some forget that this is not a charity race.
This is professional cycling.

I get it might be difficult if, as a fan who has chosen a side, you prefer a Netflix tirade of happy tears (though is half preserved, however, as all parties still look genuinely happy).

I wrote this sarcastically yesterday but would have hated a TJV promenade ride on Angliru. This mountain deserves real battles.

 

[HelloDolly]

It's apparently that some do not like Jumbo to begin with, and they seize this opportunity to trash the team.

But other bike racing fans appreciate that lots of people are actually trying to win the race. If it was a Sepp procession (Sepprocession), criticisms would surely appear for that reason too.

but its a team sport and you ride for the leader ...
No one says that any GT rider who is helped by Doms like Richie Porte , Sepp Kuss does not deserve to win as was helped

But they attacked their leaders....how low

Obviously Roglic and Vinegaard want to beat each other

 

[Red Rick]

Honestly I only just watched and I can't actually be convinced they were racing each other that badly. Vingegaard didn't try to attack Roglic. Roglic didn't play any games with Vingegaard.

Jumbo can still gift it to Kuss if they want lol. Especially now that Mas and Ayuso are at 4 minutes.

 

[Miha81]

The only one without gifted minutes is Roglic. So if we discount gifted minutes from Kuss and Vingegaard, it is Roglic who deserves The Roja the most...

Only they and team know who gifted minutes to whom. I am almost certain both Kuss and Rogla gifted saturdays stage to Vinge. But yesterday Vinge looked stronger.

Since Rogla was third wheel within GC TJV I expected Vinge to stick with Kuss today (as for example Rogla did on some previous stages) and Rogla would be given freedom to go for it if he could make separation from rest of the field.

Such a mixed feeling about this years Vuelta. On one hand I have a feeling I am looking something unprecedented and on the other hand it is like following american wrestling (circus show).

 

[RobertCrawley]

but its a team sport and you ride for the leader ...
No one says that any GT rider who is helped by Doms like Richie Porte , Sepp Kuss does not deserve to win as was helped

But they attacked their leaders....how low

Obviously Roglic and Vinegaard want to beat each other

Having the red jersey does not automatically make him the leader of the team. When Wout wore yellow in the TdF, that did not mean he was suddenly the leader of the team.

Sepptimus is paid (well) to be a domestique to help Rog and Jonas win GTs. By some odd chance, he is now in the lead of the Vuelta. But that does not make him a team leader.

I do hope Sepp hangs on. He's a super nice chap, almost as nice is Neilson Powless.