Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2023, stage 17: Ribadesella/Ribadeseya - Altu de l’Angliru, 124.4k

[Extinction]

V

The proper thing was not to keep the gap as 20 seconds, but to stay with Sepp and pace him up the climb, exactly what he did to both of them in the Giro and Tour. This isn't rocket science, Madtthebadtakes.

Not really, the team gave each rider the right to take his chance, as it should be in a real competition. And we should not forget that the only reason Sepp is in the lead is because he was allowed in a break. That's cycling too, but the unusual circumstances have led to the unusual, practically unprecedented, situation the team finds itself in. At any rate, Kuss said having them ride away at the impetus of Roglic felt weird, although without anger, since he knows the deal within the team. Roglic told him to just keep fighting, while Jonas said he really hopes Kuss can win this Vuelta.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Kuss was not next in line to win the GC at the Giro so that comparison has zero merit.

Because Kuss dedicated himself to the team. That's why he wasn't next in line either at the Giro or Tour. But now, we have a chance to see what he can do even after riding two GTs in support of those two clowns Roglic and Vingo.

 

[baojoao]

What a brilliant stage from Jumbo and UAE
Kuss have to be grateful to Landa. The basque guy was is real team mate in this stage.
Loved to ear Roglic saying the opposite of what Jumbo said.
Loved to ear Vingegaard saying that he wants Kuss to win.
And to be honest loved to see João Almeida dropping Ayuso. Uae is such a comic team.
I had the bad idea of criticising JOão's attitude, and jihad tuga...ui. Such a bad idea.

 

[Volderke]

Why, you think Vingeggard or Roglic were going full? They were 25 seconds ahead at a point and then Landa started getting time back after getting dropped and finished around 17-18 seconds ahead . You wont see this type of clownery in a circus...

I think Roglic went full today, but not Vingegaard.

That's the strange thing about this JV 1-2-3 semi-race:

1. Kuss went on the Javalambre stage. Roglic and Vingegaard (rightly) tested the GC favourites and attacked while Kuss got the stage. Nothing strange.
2. Vingegaard went on the Tourmalet stage. Roglic and Kuss holding back to protect Vingegaard's attack, later they went but I had the impression Kuss could have gone earlier / reduced the gap to Vingegaard more if he didn't first allowed Vingegaard to create his gap. Nothing strange, at least, if this was for the stage win and nothing more.
3. Yesterday, Vingegaard went early. Nobody follows. The group behind is not pacing well. So Vingegaard gets way more time than if Kuss was on another team. In the end, Roglic did the right thing to finish with other GC contestants, and Kuss was unfortunately not having the legs to follow, but being a team mate cost him, again, more time on Vingegaard than necessary.
4. Today, Roglic went for it, Vingegaard looked behind and decided to just follow and not dictate the pace. Vingegaard could have taken Red if he wanted, but he didn't. Still, Roglic went all-out and being 3rd in GC, one can wonder why exactly: does he want Vingegaard in Red? Is he still having ambition himself to be in Red?

It's all getting much stranger than it should be (but hugely entertaining: Thanks JV!), and it's time to clear things up within JV:

Either you allow, as a DS, your riders to go all out, but riders (like Kuss) will think back to the Tourmalet and yesterday's stage where they didn't go all-out because of team tactics. If riders go all-out, Vingegaard will win this Vuelta.
Either you say them that Kuss has to win this. This would imply no more attacking, and no more stage win hunting (as Vingegaard and Roglic are the ones most capable of doing so, and thereby collecting bonus seconds). The problem is that by now it's too late to allow Kuss the win, because of those bonus seconds and small time gaps. The only way for Kuss to win this, is to hang on for dear life tomorrow and Saturday.

 

[tobydawq]

Some of you defending Vingo/Roglic on here should enter the Olympics, with all the logical gymnastics you're doing trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
They're crap teammates who are in it only for themselves. At least just admit it.

I will gladly admit that.

But I don't see why Sepp Kuss should be a more worthy winner of this race than the other two.

 

[tobydawq]

Because Kuss dedicated himself to the team. That's why he wasn't next in line either at the Giro or Tour. But now, we have a chance to see what he can do even after riding two GTs in support of those two clowns Roglic and Vingo.

That's beside the point (and not true). He wasn't next on line, so the comparison doesn't hold. Period. End of discussion. Find a different example.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

i dunno, to me it seems like Kuss does not want to win as a gift. i didnt see anything wrong today, maybe Jonas should've waited for him after yesterday, but you cant help much on the Angliru anyway.

i think Kuss will attack tomorrow and the other 2 will sit on wheels.

Jonas just controlling Primoz not to "steal" la Roja from Kuss?
No really, the race today was from behind, i.e. front setting pace, apples being dropped from the tree.
Jonas was on Primoz wheel, would seem awkward if Jonas left Primoz' wheel to get dropped on-purpose.
Yesterday was different.

 

[tobydawq]

It's sick that the main discussion in one of the biggest races of the year is about which of 3 riders on the same team deserves to win it. It's like arguing about which Real Madrid or PSG player should take the penalty to make it 9-0 in a match. Broken sport.

No it isn't.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Poels and the Angliru really seems to be a love story. He was a bit meh in 2020, but I remember 3 monster rides for him on this climb.

 

[dobrien]

Because Kuss dedicated himself to the team. That's why he wasn't next in line either at the Giro or Tour. But now, we have a chance to see what he can do even after riding two GTs in support of those two clowns Roglic and Vingo.

Look, I'm a huge Sepp fan, he's one of my favorite riders and I hope he wins. But he 'dedicated himself to the team' because that is literally what Jumbo are paying him to do, it's his job description! He didn't go into either of those two races as team leader, proceeding to then selflessly sacrifice himself. Let's not go overboard at least.

 

[Bolder]

There's no outcome at this point that would please everyone, except Kuss winning by a minute tomorrow after a vicious attack, and Vingegaard cracking enough to fall to third behind Roglic, who cracks, too, but less dramatically.

 

[jimmy_8888888]

By now, it more or less clear that Kuss's grand tour legs finally start to caught up with him. IMO it only matter of time before he not able to follow the pace of Roglic and Vingegaard.

 

[dobrien]

Honestly do not care who wins at this point; for me the whole thing is just ruined. If Sepp wins it was a gift, if Jonas wins he stabbed Sepp in the back, we have 3 guys from the same team completely dominating the race and the obvious clinic issues that raises, Remco looking like some random stage hunter, etc. The air has totally gone out of it.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Nobody said Jumbo were a genius at PR. Today was another PRabofail.

 

[Escarabajo]

Maybe Pogacar should ride with Jumbo next year so we have more competition at the Tour!

 

[Tim Cahill]

30 seconds off Heras' record, could've been a bit closer if Vingegaard rode too, Landa and Kuss also on a super high level.

 

[ontheroad]

Look, I'm a huge Sepp fan, he's one of my favorite riders and I hope he wins. But he 'dedicated himself to the team' because that is literally what Jumbo are paying him to do, it's his job description! He didn't go into either of those two races as team leader, proceeding to then selflessly sacrifice himself. Let's not go overboard at least.

I think this is correct, it was probably the basis on which he signed a big contract. But he will also have listened to and heard the outside noise telling him he can win this race and who wouldn't have their head turned by all of that. If Bahrain hadn't pulled as strongly today then the chances are the time gaps would have been much larger to Kuss which would have propelled Vingegaard into red. As thing stand the circus within the team rolls on for another day. It makes for a great study in human behaviour.

 

[Kazistuta]

Sepp Kuss is not the best rider in this years Vuelta, so is he more deserving than the other two riders. I get the "helper gets his moment in the spotlight" narrative, but it's the third biggest stage race in the World, and as such not a race that should be "gifted". I still see it happen, though.
I agree that the way Jumbo is riding seems strange, and they probably should be better at communicating the plans the rest of the way.
Best thing from now on would be to forego stage wins and cruise slowly over the rest of the mountains, giving Sepp the win and a JV 1-2-3. Only change in that scenario would be an attack from Mas, Landa or Ayuso, where Sepp probably would be the first to react.

 

[ice&fire]

Professor Hinault has distinguished Roglic and Vingegaard as graduated summa cum laude at his course "Attack your teammate to help him win"

 

[Volderke]

I will gladly admit that.

But I don't see why Sepp Kuss should be a more worthy winner of this race than the other two.

Would he be a less worthy winner if from now on roglic and Vingegaard paced it so Kuss can hang on?

 

[svit]

The only one without gifted minutes is Roglic. So if we discount gifted minutes from Kuss and Vingegaard, it is Roglic who deserves The Roja the most...

 

[Extinction]

Some of you defending Vingo/Roglic on here should enter the Olympics, with all the logical gymnastics you're doing trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
They're crap teammates who are in it only for themselves. At least just admit it.

When you know something about cycling, then you can give advice. It's not about deciding at the table who wins, but sport, competition. Jumbo must allow the best to win, the future equilibrium at the team depends on it. You can't tell champions like Vingegaard and Roglic, who are as close to Kuss as they are, they can't take their chances. Kuss knows this first and foremost. Roglic can't be held back, nor Vingegaard if they can win this Vuelta. They signed agreements for that privilege, based on what they have achieved at Jumbo-Visma. Of course, this doesn't mean they want Sepp to lose or would take enjoyment in surpassing him. But it's their right to do so if he can't follow, because they still give Jumbo the win, which is the primary team objective. Kuss has said it doesn't matter which of them wins, so long as Jumbo wins, as it should be. Naturally he dearly wants to win and would do so deservingly if he has the legs to do it. However, again, with the three so close on GC it's right, as the team has stipulated, that each can go for it. Notice how Vingegaard today just rode in on Roglic's wheel, which otherwise would have been an inexcusable act of betrayal. Yet neither betrayed Kuss, but only legitimately rode their own race to the finish. To not have done so, would have been a betrayal to the competition, which should not see such champions be forced to hold back. And they are not Kuss's domestiques now, but co-leaders with him. On the other hand, were Kuss to have shot away leaving the others behind, then they bridged up alone AND then attacked him that, yes, would have been an act of betrayal. But that's not what happened today.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

That's how he celebrates. Man I think I spelled everything correct on that post and you still have to complain about something

I feel your pain!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Vingo is a liar. He knows he and Roglic covered themselves in shame today.

Yes, Jumbo is horrible. If it was Remco or Pog, they would let their domestique win the GT.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

How did they do that if the team and all three riders have mentioned that the plan was they were going to go hard and whoever got dropped got dropped?

It happens, because in this instance "plan" means, Roglic said "This is what I'm doing, whether you like it or not."