Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2023, stage 18: Pola de Allande - La Cruz de Linares, 178.9k

[Rackham]

How did the attack on Bejes seriously hurt his teammates on GC? It's not like they lost time or positions. They just made their own position at the top of the GC more secure.

Kuss went from having a comfortable cushion to no cushion at all. Roglič lost 2nd in GC & over a minute.

It seems like a steep price to pay just for Vinge to win a stage. I mean from my chair (armchair?) here it looks like stage 16 was ground zero for the SHTF (sh*t hit the fan) scenario at Jumbo.

It pretty much ensured Vingegaard will win this Vuelta, not on merit, but via team preference.

 

[AmRacer]

Kuss went from having a comfortable cushion to no cushion at all. Roglič lost 2nd in GC & over a minute.

It seems like a steep price to pay just for Vinge to win a stage. I mean from my chair (armchair?) here it looks like stage 16 was ground zero for the SHTF (sh*t hit the fan) scenario at Jumbo.

It pretty much ensured Vingegaard will win this Vuelta, not on merit, but via team preference.

Vinge could win this Vuelta easily anyway.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

How can you even ask this question?

In the fight for the win, the attack and subsequent UAE-show absolutely hurt them both.

If one still subscribes to the fantasy that they're all equally happy with either of the three winning, then of course it didn't hurt them, but nobody really thinks that anymore.

Kuss had a buffer of 2'33 over the nearest non-Jumbo rider before stage 16. After stage 16 he had a buffer of 2'33 over the nearest non-Jumbo rider. Rogla had a buffer of 1'00 over the first non-Jumbo rider before the stage and a minute afterward.

Vingegaard however gained so that if Kuss falters - remember he's still not a proven GC rider - they have a bigger buffer before they lose the jersey.

Jumbo-Visma lost nothing through Sepp and Primož and they gained with Jonas.

They may have lost a bit in terms of team unity and hearts-and-minds stuff... but purely from a results perspective, they were stronger post-Bejes than they were before it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Kuss went from having a comfortable cushion to no cushion at all. Roglič lost 2nd in GC & over a minute.

It seems like a steep price to pay just for Vinge to win a stage. I mean from my chair (armchair?) here it looks like stage 16 was ground zero for the SHTF (sh*t hit the fan) scenario at Jumbo.

It pretty much ensured Vingegaard will win this Vuelta, not on merit, but via team preference.

Again, so if Vingegaard gets told to shut up and ride formation when he's demonstrably the stronger rider now, would Kuss have won the Vuelta on merit, or via team preference?

 

[danielovichdk2]

Evenepoel to win the stage ahead of Soler and Poole. Bahrain will pace and drop Ayuso and Mas, so that Landa can take 4th. All three Jumbo captains will be passive spectators following Bahrain, no gaps between them.

Solid pitch

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Unfortunately for that narrative, he himself is part of said ruthless machine.

What we see seems all to human to me, not very machine like. Outside of the question if JV is a disgrace or a wonder of the world, there are human dynamics at play here that make the narrative compelling, and lead people to have strong opinions about it.

I think most of the controversy here comes down to differences in moral judgement. Your's for example is that whoever is part of the ruthless machine that is JV in your eyes, is complicit and therefore deserves no sympathy, at least that's what I gather from your posts. Understandable, but isn't the discussion about weather or not Roglic/Skeletor should behave differently towards a team mate and loyal helper, not about weather or not JV is a disgrace making them all moral outlaws anyway?

 

[Rackham]

Again, so if Vingegaard gets told to shut up and ride formation when he's demonstrably the stronger rider now, would Kuss have won the Vuelta on merit, or via team preference?

When Vingegaard attacks on Bejes, the others should have the right to chase him down, even if it means Mas & Ayuso bridge over as well.

Otherwise he's just exploiting team tactics (i.e. the rule which says don't drag opponents to a teammate when he attacks) for his own gain by attacking first & leaving Rog & Kuss in deep sh*t. The real 'drama' came not from Vingegaard's attack but by Rog & Kuss playing teammates behind... for a guy who essentially attacking them. It was absurd.

And considering what we now know, I can assume Kuss & Rog should have followed Vingegaard on the Tourmalet as well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

When Vingegaard attacks on Bejes, the others should have the right to chase him down, even if it means Mas & Ayuso bridge over as well.

Otherwise he's just exploiting team tactics (i.e. the rule which says don't drag opponents to a teammate when he attacks) for his own gain by attacking first & leaving Rog & Kuss in deep sh*t. The real 'drama' came not from Vingegaard's attack but by Rog & Kuss playing teammates behind... for a guy who essentially attacking them. It was absurd.

And considering what we now know, I can assume Kuss & Rog should have followed Vingegaard on the Tourmalet as well.

You're criticising that if Vingegaard attacks and wins the race because the team gives him freedom to, he would not have won on merit but would have won because of team orders.

So please explain to me how Kuss would have won on merit and not because of team orders, if the only thing that enables him to win is the team instructing Vingegaard and Roglič not to attack.

Because that's literally winning on team orders, not figuratively.

 

[HelloDolly]

https://x.com/ukcyclingexpert/status/1702232443715981577?s=20

 

[Rackham]

You're criticising that if Vingegaard attacks and wins the race because the team gives him freedom to, he would not have won on merit but would have won because of team orders.

So please explain to me how Kuss would have won on merit and not because of team orders, if the only thing that enables him to win is the team instructing Vingegaard and Roglič not to attack.

Because that's literally winning on team orders, not figuratively.

I think you're misreading my posts. I never said Kuss would win on merit. I said Kuss was basically screwed into losing over a minute on Bejes by team orders & Vingegaard's attack. On merit he wouldn't have lost that much time on stage 16, I can be sure of it (namely when we look at the names of the riders sandwiched between Vingegaard & the rest of the GC contenders on that climb).

The problem is it wasn't a fair fight. In a fair fight, Kuss doesn't have the jersey in the first place (all his gains came via a breakaway). Roglič would absolutely not be behind Vingegaard to the extent he is right now either (his losses have come through team decisions, not his own performances).

And that's the issue here, i.e. in accepting the total war now at Jumbo (which is the correct decision after stage 16's shenanigans), it's come too little & too late, with Vingegaard now having a clear advantage over his teammates.

 

[HelloDolly]

I am heartened that so many past cycling greats are saying attacking the red Jersey as JV have being doing is not on

And to all those on here that say Sepp Kuss is not the best and doesnt not deserve to win I say


"I was not the best because I killed quickly. I was the best because the crowd loved me. Win the crowd and you will win your freedom."

 

[tretiak]

There isn't really anything we can say as a given "truth" in a situation like this. Pogacar have done some great ITTs and he's beaten Vingegaard a couple of times, but it's a speculation / opinion to say "Tadej is as good as Jonas at ITT".
If you want to look at what is confirmed as "true" there are two things that comes to mind for me in this context:
Vingegaard is 3-0 up on Pogacar in last week TDF ITTs.
Pogacar have never completely crushed a ITT like Vingegaard did that day. Not even Plance des Belles Filles comes close when looking at the time gaps compared to the opponents and base on length (either if you look at time or distance of the race).
It's not a good look to me to claim your own speculation/opinion as truth when you are attacking other people for speculating (everyone speculates and share opinions, that's what a discussion forum is for).

Now we are discussing in the wrong forum.

When it came to my discussion, Team order didn't have to be taken into account anyway.

But ITT is more than pedaling watts, in addition to how you sit ergonomically, knowing the track is extremely important, because taking a curve correctly or braking at the right time before a curve or downhill affects your finish time extremely much in the long run. Deciding to change bikes before an uphill is also a time aspect that you have to calculate with. This can be compared via video analysis. You can't know how many watts they push, it's quite secret.

But preparation is really important to ITT.

 

[HelloDolly]

And here is a true find to GT racing right here

Cian Uijtdebroeks: "It was an attacking day and it was pretty tough going. Already yesterday I wasn’t at 100 percent,

and yet he is lying 7th on GC in his first GT and smiling all the way too (like Kuss)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I am heartened that so many past cycling greats are saying attacking the red Jersey as JV have being doing is not on

And to all those on here that say Sepp Kuss is not the best and doesnt not deserve to win I say


"I was not the best because I killed quickly. I was the best because the crowd loved me. Win the crowd and you will win your freedom."

Sure, as I say there is a clear attempt by the media to portray Sepp as the good guy, so it's no surprise that the audience - especially with many cycling greats who coincidentally mostly happen to be American or have significant interests in an American audience backing him - follows that narrative.

Also, that quote is of course a figure of speech, just witness the near decade of #FreeLanda memeing we've seen since 2015.

 

[iBanesto]

Hinault and Koechli v Lemond.

Vinegaard and Roglic v Kuss.

Slashing the Kusshion.

 

[tobydawq]

They may have lost a bit in terms of team unity and hearts-and-minds stuff... but purely from a results perspective, they were stronger post-Bejes than they were before it.

Sure, but everybody knew before Bejes that there were three people who could win that Vuelta. And the two lost more than a minute to the third on that stage.

The rest of the riders on GC were already irrelevant at that time.

 

[search]

And here is a true find to GT racing right here

Cian Uijtdebroeks: "It was an attacking day and it was pretty tough going. Already yesterday I wasn’t at 100 percent,

and yet he is lying 7th on GC in his first GT and smiling all the way too (like Kuss)

Cian is doing a great race, but I doubt that health wise he is in a worse state than others. Most are suffering from whatever kind of problems at this point of the race, they just got used to it over the years, while it's new for him.

 

[staubsauger]

Cian is doing a great race, but I doubt that health wise he is in a worse state than others. Most are suffering from whatever kind of problems at this point of the race, they just got used to it over the years, while it's new for him.

Yes. Compare it to Martinez who has fully sunken and Uijtdebroeks does perfectly fine for his first grand tour given it's an intense Vuelta a Espana!

 

[tobydawq]

Sure, as I say there is a clear attempt by the media to portray Sepp as the good guy,

Maybe he is the good guy, yet you randomly decided long ago that he was on your naughty list based on his riding, and now you're projecting the traits you dislike about his riding over on his personality and therefore think that the media are manipulative on this topic.

It never occurred to you for a second that your hatred of him perhaps is not that well-founded?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Kuss went from having a comfortable cushion to no cushion at all. Roglič lost 2nd in GC & over a minute.

It seems like a steep price to pay just for Vinge to win a stage. I mean from my chair (armchair?) here it looks like stage 16 was ground zero for the SHTF (sh*t hit the fan) scenario at Jumbo.

It pretty much ensured Vingegaard will win this Vuelta, not on merit, but via team preference.

Actually not. Wait till the conclusion of today's stage before issuing such statements. Kuss can defend himself and/or Vingo/Rog can put their feet off the gas slightly. Today will tell us a lot about JV situation and Vingo's / Rog's intentions. I think Kuss' victory is more realistic now than before Angliru.

 

[topcat]

I watched the last 10 minutes of yesterday’s stage and that was too much for me. Surfing again today, waves are up, so cowabunga Sepp (it sure was good while it lasted).

 

[Rackham]

Actually not. Wait till the conclusion of today's stage before issuing such statements. Kuss can defend himself and/or Vingo/Rog can put their feet off the gas slightly. Today will tell us a lot about JV situation and Vingo's / Rog's intentions. I think Kuss' victory is more realistic now than before Angliru.

If Kuss wins the Vuelta now, it'll absolutely be because Vingegaard & Rog stop their attacks (under team orders). There's just no way Kuss under normal circumstances can defend 8 seconds against Vingegaard.

I just don't believe it. Even intermediate sprint bonuses can play a role here.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Pretty sure this will be for the breakaway today.
Unless Bahrain or UAE decides otherwise with their GC riders - in that case it's one for the Jumbo trinity, once again.
Wonder if Evenepoel has anything left in the tank today. In his mind he has plenty left.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If Kuss wins the Vuelta now, it'll absolutely be because Vingegaard & Rog stop their attacks (under team orders). There's just no way Kuss under normal circumstances can defend 8 seconds against Vingegaard.

I just don't believe it. Even intermediate sprint bonuses can play a role here.

He lost just 19 seconds on the monstrous Angliru. He's in a very good form. It's not that far fetched to think he can defend himself today. I don't think they will risk on Saturday (maybe under team orders).

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Hinault and Koechli v Lemond.

Vinegaard and Roglic v Kuss.

Slashing the Kusshion.

Except for "Vinegaard" should be in the role as Lemond.
Lemond was clearly the stronger of the two that year.

Apart from that a bit of a silly comparison.

There is no one on TJV who is against either Sepp, Primoz or Jonas nor have one of them in favor of another, although a sheep hord really wants to sing that song.
It's just the circumstances that seem unfair to someone, should the three take up the battle of who is the strongest. Instead of making it a cry-baby Netflix series.