Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2023, stage 9: Cartagena - Collado de la Cruz de Caravaca, 184.5k

[Valv.Piti]

Its not altering, its literal neutralizations on multiple occasions.

 

[RedheadDane]

Its not altering, its literal neutralizations on multiple occasions.

And the neutralisations alter the course of the race...

But, anyway; apart from the odd ending we had a great race.

 

[Elos Anjos]

What a bunch of pussy organization from my fellow spanish neighbours.

The only way is to end La Vuelta and turn Volta a Portugal into the next GT.

You think this is peak chaos? You haven't seen anything.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course people can remember, but there's no need to act as if it "had some profound impact". Why would a random race result from 10+ years ago have had a profound impact?

My point was the people dying - or getting seriously injured - is something that needs to be done a lot of to make sure doesn't happen. Races getting slightly altered, really isn't such big deal.

Precedent.

The 2016 Formigal stage was incredibly memorable both for good and bad reasons. It was decisive for that Vuelta, we saw Contador and Quintana - in the race leader's jersey - get in the break of the day, the previously unbeatable Sky train disintegrate in seconds... and we also saw 90 riders including GT top 10s, GT KOMs and mountain stage winners of that very edition finish 50 minutes back in a 3 hour stage, and people like Larry Warbasse announcing confidently that fans should like it because the riders had organised and agreed that if they were enough in number they couldn't be thrown out the race.

The 2020 Giro stage was far from memorable. In fact the only thing that was memorable was the riders' protest, and Adam Hansen announcing confidently to the crowd that the riders would do everything in their power to put on a show in the shortened stage... and then absolutely nothing happened.

These two stages demonstrated the weakness of race organisers to stand up to the riders. Yes, the race organisers need the riders as without them there is no show... but actually the bigger necessity is the other way around. The race organisers can always invite somebody else, especially races with in-built prestige over the course of a century, there will be enough teams willing to ride it if the top pros won't. Just like the Indycar/Champ Car split, where Champ Car had all the best cars, drivers, and most of the fans... but Indycar had the Indy 500, which was key to sponsorships, and they just invited other drivers and cars. The quality of the event went down for a few years, but its importance was such that it was the TV epicentre of that calendar and eventually all those teams and drivers ended up going back. Without races to do, the riders are worthless.

Very few will have a problem with a rider protest where it is actually merited. The 2009 Milan stage where parked cars were on the course, for example, or them refusing to take the start in the Giro della Toscana when it became clear they couldn't secure sections of the circuit from traffic. But that's a safety concern. It being a bit rainy and the stage being long, like in the 2020 Giro, is not. That's the kind of thing where organisers should say, well, you're free to climb into the team car or not take the start. Stage 2 of this race did not need to be neutralised, and in fact the neutralisation increased the danger compared to finishing the race as normal on the circuit as, you know, water flows downhill and all that so there was no standing water on the hills. That was just an act of revenge by the péloton after stage 1.

But this is two Sundays in a row - peak viewing day - where the fans have got to watch an arbitrary line not even painted on the road, just made up ad hoc, settle GC time, and then watched the biggest names in the sport chat to each other like they're me and my friends out for a spin, while the breakaway guys actually contesting the stage demonstrate that there was zero reason why the stage should have been shortened at all. It's legitimately turning it into a rally raid, with certain sections just covered for the sake of miles in the legs, and certain sections timed - which is antithetical to the way the sport has been run since its inception.

It's kind of funny, that the sport likes to lionise and romanticise the past. Fiorenzo Magni chowing down on the inner tube wrapped round his handlebars to distract from the pain from his broken collarbone; Jesús Loroño being wrestled off his bike because he was trying to ride a neutralised stage in the snow to prove a point; Andy Hampsten and the 1988 Gavia stage; Hinault at Liège-Bastogne-Liège in 1980. These are all parts of cycling history that are revered, praised, seen as great and admirable feats. Now we're supposed to admire the riders that look at the weather those champions of the past fought through and their first thought is not "how will I get through this?" but "will the organisers give us a complimentary mug of cocoa when we ask them to call it off?"

 

[RedheadDane]

It's kind of funny, that the sport likes to lionise and romanticise the past. Fiorenzo Magni chowing down on the inner tube wrapped round his handlebars to distract from the pain from his broken collarbone; Jesús Loroño being wrestled off his bike because he was trying to ride a neutralised stage in the snow to prove a point; Andy Hampsten and the 1988 Gavia stage; Hinault at Liège-Bastogne-Liège in 1980. These are all parts of cycling history that are revered, praised, seen as great and admirable feats.

And maybe they shouldn't be. Maybe people need to stop, and consider that perhaps the "good old days" weren't so good at all. Of course, as you pointed out earlier, they need to not be forgetting completely, otherwise there's a risk of repeating the mistakes of the past.

You guys are acting as if riders constantly request that races are called off, or otherwise altered, but that isn't the case.

 

[Elos Anjos]

And maybe they shouldn't be. Maybe people need to stop, and consider that perhaps the "good old days" weren't so good at all.

You guys are acting as if riders constantly request that races are called off, or otherwise altered, but that isn't the case.

The pussification of society is general and by that I mean a tendency for displaying care, safety and eliminating risk everywhere and in all activities. That is borderline condescending and patronizing of the best humans can do. I won't brag much, but just look at how kids played outside in the 80s during hours while developing and learning skills and how they have now to be instructed on how to have fun by ****ing professionals or are just glued to the screens.

There ought to be areas of activity where willing members are very well paid and can thus remind us of what humans can endure to achieve greatness. If cycling looses that because of over the top safety concerns, it will just go with the flow of other sports and turn into something else.

 

[RedheadDane]

There ought to be areas of activity where willing members are very well paid and can thus remind us of what humans can endure to achieve greatness. If cycling looses that because of over the top safety concerns, it will just go with the flow of other sports and turn into something else.

The pros still endure a lot!

I will always think that should have a much bigger say in what happens than random fans.

But just imagine if the opposite had happened, and they hadn't altered the stage, it had been as muddy as it first appeared, and there had been a crash. That would have been much worse.

 

[tobydawq]

They didn't cancel it. They just took the times at an unorthodox location.
Kämna still won the stage.

They rendered the stage irrelevant for GC. Just as stage 2. That's a quarter of the road stages so far.

It's alright to be outraged.

 

[Elos Anjos]

The pros still endure a lot!

I will always think that should have a much bigger say in what happens than random fans.

But just imagine if the opposite had happened, and they hadn't altered the stage, it had been as muddy as it first appeared, and there had been a crash. That would have been much worse.

There will always be crashes...

The painting is on the wall...since the UCI banned the supertuck position they are basically saying that a certain set of skills doesn't amount to criteria for selecting the best rider. Why? Safety concerns.

 

[tobydawq]

If everyone climbs off, the race will be cancelled by default.

Anyway, tomorrow's there's another race.
No, not in Spain. In the UK.

That reminds me of that time when Eurosport didn't have the rights for Omloop but said no worries, you can still follow the final stage of the UAE Tour on that Saturday.

Not everyone of us rates every race exactly equally.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The pros still endure a lot!

I will always think that should have a much bigger say in what happens than random fans.

But just imagine if the opposite had happened, and they hadn't altered the stage, it had been as muddy as it first appeared, and there had been a crash. That would have been much worse.

Imagine what would happen if somebody had a nasty crash on the cobbles at Roubaix. Better neutralise them or take them out of the race for safety in case it rains.

 

[RedheadDane]

Not everyone of us rates every race exactly equally.

Today I rated the Vuelta and Bretagne Classics higher than Tour of Britain.
Tomorrow, I'll rate ToB higher, as it'll be the only race on.

Imagine what would happen if somebody had a nasty crash on the cobbles at Roubaix. Better neutralise them or take them out of the race for safety in case it rains.

Cobbles are an essential part of P-R. This random climb isn't an essential part of the Vuelta.

Yes, what happened today could have been handled better, but it happened, nothing to do about it now.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Today I rated the Vuelta and Bretagne Classics higher than Tour of Britain.
Tomorrow, I'll rate ToB higher, as it'll be the only race on.



Cobbles are an essential part of P-R. This random climb isn't an essential part of the Vuelta.

Yes, what happened today could have been handled better, but it happened, nothing to do about it now.

What if the essential part of the race is dangerous? Like, say, the Poggio descent in Sanremo, or heavy rain on the Champs Elysées?

Also, what defines 'essential' parts that supersede these considerations? What if you have, say, a stage race with three flat stages and an MTF, and it rains on the day with the MTF? Is it essential because it is the main defining characteristic of the race, or is it inessential because it's not defined as part of the fabric of the race à la cobbles at Paris-Roubaix or the Mur de Huy? What about, say, the Vejle stage of the Danmark Rundt - is that 'essential'? It happens every year and is the main stage that people look forward to and focus on for the race - but it's also not race-defining because there are other stages that can be decisive. So is it 'essential' or not?

 

[Red Rick]

And maybe they shouldn't be. Maybe people need to stop, and consider that perhaps the "good old days" weren't so good at all. Of course, as you pointed out earlier, they need to not be forgetting completely, otherwise there's a risk of repeating the mistakes of the past.

You guys are acting as if riders constantly request that races are called off, or otherwise altered, but that isn't the case.

It's not about frequency of callign it off, it's about merit.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Not surprised he got done for drafting, it looked incredibly dodgy.

JURY COMMUNIQUE Nº 10.

Art. 2.12.7; 4.7 Sheltering behind a team car. 214. BARRENETXEA GOLZARRI, Jon UCI ID 10040454741 CAJA RURAL-SEGUROS RGA 200 CHF fine, 20" penalty in the general classification, 10 points penalty in the points classification and 3 points penalty in the mountain classification.

D.D. CAJA RURAL-SEGUROS RGA; MARTÍNEZ, Rubén, UCI ID 10005827357.Fine 500 CHF

Art. 2.12.007; 4.11Irregular feeding (“sticky bottle” for a short distance)

206. NAVARRO GARCÍA, Daniel UCI ID 10002514506 BURGOS-BH Fine 200,00 CHFD.S. BURGOS - BH; CANTERA, David UCI ID 10089466922. Fine 200,00 CHF

Art. 2.12.007; 6.3 Not following the instructions of the commissaires .D.S. BURGOS - BH; CANTERA, David UCI ID 10089466922.Fine 500 CHF, exclusion from stage 11, Lerma - La Laguna Negra. Vinuesa, without possibility of replacement

.As part of the fight against technological fraud, 39 bicycles were checked today and conformed with the UCI regulations.

Medical release.
Km 6: Riders 33 and 92 fall, suffering various injuries and erosions. They continue.
Km 8 : Fall of rider 95 with injuries to his knee and elbow. He is treated and continues the race.
194 injuries to knee and shoulder, he is treated and continues the race.
215 abrasion to knee and injury to elbow. He is treated and continued the race.48 various traumas and erosions. He continued the race.
Km 50 (fall of rider 42)
Km 60 (fall of rider 136)
Km 71 fall of rider 156
The riders with superficial injuries continued the race.

 

[Tim Cahill]

That story about Jesus Lorono riding out of spite in the snow is hilarious

Vuelta a Espana – Re-Cycle: When Federico Bahamontes gifted the 1957 Vuelta to rival Jesús Loroño - Eurosport

One of cycling’s bitterest rivalries exploded during the 1957 Vuelta a Espana, when Federico Bahamontes blew a 16-minute lead handing the race to Jesús Loroño.

www.eurosport.com

Vuelta a España iconic stages: Loroño, Bahamontes and Spain's bitterest duel | Cyclingnews.com

Stage 10, Vuelta a España 1957: Valencia - Tortosa

www.cyclingnews.com

“The Vuelta? In those days it was just a bit of a joke,” he dismissively tells Fotheringham in The Eagle of Toledo.

Plus ça change

 

[Peyroteo94]

Riders are getting killed way more in training rides (because there is traffic) than in actual races. We don't need extreme decisions in road racing, we need extreme decisions to improve safety for riders to train with traffic. Mandatory School programs promoting an active life style, more benefits to people who use bus or trains, more bike lanes, etc. Even in countries like Italy, we have an horrific safety on roads, they drive like mad dogs! And Italy is one of the best countries in developing cyclists.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Riders are getting killed way more in training rides (because there is traffic) than in actual races. We don't need extreme decisions in road racing, we need extreme decisions to improve safety for riders to train with traffic. Mandatory School programs promoting an active life style, more benefits to people who use bus or trains, more bike lanes, etc. Even in countries like Italy, we have an horrific safety on roads, they drive like mad dogs! And Italy is one of the best countries in developing cyclists.

The problem is the traffic, not the riders. Most countries just aren't that safe for cyclists in general, whether pro or not.

 

[Escarabajo]

It is annoying to hear complains about the same things over and over. Get over it. Times have changed and there is nothing we can do about it. Things can always be done better, but cancellation or truncations to protect the riders are here to stay. Sure I wanted to watch the whole climb but there was a risk of an accident because of the mud. If we can avoid it then be it. The times of watching riders go down the Gavia at subzero temperatures with snow are over.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

It is annoying to hear complains about the same things over and over. Get over it. Times have changed and there is nothing we can do about it.

This is the kind of argument that gets used a lot of times in a lot of different contexts. It is never a good argument in any of those contexts.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Imagine what would happen if somebody had a nasty crash on the cobbles at Roubaix. Better neutralise them or take them out of the race for safety in case it rains.

& every time they get put in the Tour, we get wails of protest from the fans calling for the stage to be cancelled or neutralised.

 

[dazaau]

Another farce, but it is what it is. Importantly, Roglic made a statement on who "could have won" on stage 8

 

[Andre]

As you get older three things happen. The first is your memory goes, and I can't remember the other two.

 

[Rob5091]

Chapeau Kämna - finally gets the win.

So we've had thunderstorms, darkness, rain, mud, protests, 400 liters of oil and lots of crashes. Not bad for a first week! We just need some 40C heat now and of course, the organizers will some how mess up the ITT on Tuesday. Are you not entertained?!

 

[Pirazziattacks]

And ironically they put the finish somewhere more dangerous than the actual finish on that stage.

The organisers should have had better contingency plans, but all this is a direct result of Mauro Vegni being a coward a few years ago and letting the riders dictate when they do and don't race, and Javier Guillén being a coward a few years ago and letting the riders dictate who can and can't be thrown out of the race.

You seriously need to develop a degree of perspective when it comes to your special interest.