Warning for Lance fans

[Ninety5rpm]

However, you mentioned wikipedia as being non-biased and presenting all the facts. And that just by itself is going to get you flamed, as there are a very considerably amount of facts that aren't there because Lance fans immediately edit them out and contest them.

Wikipedia is surprisingly good at being non-biased and presenting all the relevant facts that are properly sourced in reliable secondary sources.

If anyone feels properly sourced and relevant material is being removed, this can be easily appealed to experienced editors who are not biased.

That said, the standards are higher for BLPs (biographies of living persons) and controversial issues. The information has to be well sourced to be included in an article and not reverted.

 

[pedaling squares]

...and the regular bikes took a step up, becoming more aero and faster down hill. That would bump up the average speed a tick.

This leapt out at me. Can you elaborate on how the smaller and lighter modern bicycle is faster downhill? Unless you're racing from the Alpes to the ocean, you're really not spending all that much time going downhill. If you ride the flats for 4 hrs at 45 km/h, climb for 55 mins at 20 km/h, and descend for 8 mins at 75 km/h, the descent hasn't done much to bump up your average speed. EPO on the other hand........

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Wikipedia is surprisingly good at being non-biased and presenting all the relevant facts that are properly sourced in reliable secondary sources.

If anyone feels properly sourced and relevant material is being removed, this can be easily appealed to experienced editors who are not biased.

That said, the standards are higher for BLPs (biographies of living persons) and controversial issues. The information has to be well sourced to be included in an article and not reverted.

You probably missed this post that I wrote earlier on this thread.

I brought up the example from his Wiki page about his reported V02 max, they come from non attributed sources quoted from 'Running' magazines.

Originally Posted by Dr. Maserati

I just checked his page and did a quick check on the V02 max figures it presents: the 'sources' used are clips from magazines, and do not show where these figures came from.

"Armstrong has recorded an aerobic capacity of 83.8 mL/kg/min (VO2 max),[32][33] -
[32]is from a 'RunnersWorld' article


[33]is from table of athletes which includes Lance ........ there is no mention of how these figures were attained (maybe from wiki ).

 

[Laszlo]

This leapt out at me. Can you elaborate on how the smaller and lighter modern bicycle is faster downhill? Unless you're racing from the Alpes to the ocean, you're really not spending all that much time going downhill. If you ride the flats for 4 hrs at 45 km/h, climb for 55 mins at 20 km/h, and descend for 8 mins at 75 km/h, the descent hasn't done much to bump up your average speed. EPO on the other hand........

The stages have been shortened; used to be 200-300 kms with some over 300 kms; the money has gone up, a heck of a lot more drive for that prize; as far as the bike technology, sure it helps, if you consider say, a conservative 4 lbs weight savings for combined frame, wheel and tire technology is about 2% lighter; I say there are reasons the average speed has gone up without the entire peleton using epo.

 

[Nick777]

Come on Pou-pou.

Look at who Lance was racing against then,Pantani, Virenque,Indurain etc.

Didn't Lance quote in his book that when he won the prologue in 1999, he beat Indurain's time on the same course?

It doesn't matter who he was racing against. Placings in those TT's are irrelevant - the question is, why did Lance go from averaging 44/45 kph in TT's in the early 90's to 48/50 kph in 99-2005?

 

[Polish]

But in 1995, Lance was at the same age as most of the great riders like Lemond Fignon, Merckx, Hinault,....

and despite his experience of 2 TDF, he failed to win or to challenge the win on a major stage.... and still was never a contender!

So what is your point? Did Lance was strong as Hinault or Merckx or Lemond in their beginning on mountain and ITT?

What is my point?

Well, my main point is that the myth "Doping Transformed Lance into a TdF Winner" has not come even close to being proved. I do not think it will EVER be proved - just way way too many other variables

But to use Lance's 93-96 Tour performances as evidence to support the myth is especially weak.

Eddy and Hinault both won their first TdFs in their fourth pro seasons.
They are the 2 Greatest GT Riders of all Time in my opinion.

Lance won his first TdF in his fifth pro season if you do not include the years 97 and 98. I do not like comparing Lance to Eddy or Hinault, but Lance's record is comparable in this regard.

In Eddy's and Hinault's fourth season TdF's - they raced to WIN...and they won.
In 1999, Lance's fifth season Tdf - he race to WIN...and he won

Lance's TdF's 93-96, he was racing as a neo pro or racing for stage wins or racing with cancer. How would Eddy or Hinault have done if they raced the TdF during their first 4 years? They would have won some stages too lol, but we will never know...

 

[Ninety5rpm]

You probably missed this post that I wrote earlier on this thread.

I brought up the example from his Wiki page about his reported V02 max, they come from non attributed sources quoted from 'Running' magazines.

I did not mean to imply that Wikipedia articles in general, or that page in particular, don't have problems!

Only that if something is well sourced you should be able to get it in, and if it's not then you should be able to get it out, both pretty easily.

 

[peloton]

What is my point?

Well, my main point is that the myth "Doping Transformed Lance into a TdF Winner" has not come even close to being proved. I do not think it will EVER be proved - just way way too many other variables

But to use Lance's 93-96 Tour performances as evidence to support the myth is especially weak.

Eddy and Hinault both won their first TdFs in their fourth pro seasons.
They are the 2 Greatest GT Riders of all Time in my opinion.

Lance won his first TdF in his fifth pro season if you do not include the years 97 and 98. I do not like comparing Lance to Eddy or Hinault, but Lance's record is comparable in this regard.

In Eddy's and Hinault's fourth season TdF's - they raced to WIN...and they won.
In 1999, Lance's fifth season Tdf - he race to WIN...and he won

Lance's TdF's 93-96, he was racing as a neo pro or racing for stage wins or racing with cancer. How would Eddy or Hinault have done if they raced the TdF during their first 4 years? They would have won some stages too lol, but we will never know...

your trolling is really getting tiresome...

There's a fan forum at the livestrong.com (or was it .org?) site, enough of your nonsense trolling here.

 

[Boeing]

(I went all google boy on this one some time ago for a fantasy MLB blog but forget where I got it but props to whomever did it anyway)


Lance Armstrong vs. Barry Bonds



Lance Armstrong – investigated by French authorities into alleged doping practices.

Same thing as Bonds: Federal investigation

Neither has tested positive for steroids or blood doping. Trainer tied to steroid, blood doping scam.

Both with significant and measurable body change

Both Dicks

But Bonds is chastised and Lance Armstrong hosts the ESPYs because:

A) Bonds plays America’s pastime

B) Lance overcame cancer

C) Lance is the stereotypical American hero

D) Lance is great with the media, great PR guy, very marketable. Barry Not

E) Perhaps because Lance is _ _ _ _ _?

play ball

 

[Boeing]

The only thing worse than Trolls is people talking about and arguing with Trolls.

 

[Polish]

your trolling is really getting tiresome...

.

Maybe you should just take a nap

http://www.livestrong.com/health-ar...en-work_ef4bfe24-9e31-003b-341e-396ebc1bb98b/
.
.
.

 

[Nick777]

What is my point?

Well, my main point is that the myth "Doping Transformed Lance into a TdF Winner" has not come even close to being proved. I do not think it will EVER be proved - just way way too many other variables

But to use Lance's 93-96 Tour performances as evidence to support the myth is especially weak.

Eddy and Hinault both won their first TdFs in their fourth pro seasons.
They are the 2 Greatest GT Riders of all Time in my opinion.

Lance won his first TdF in his fifth pro season if you do not include the years 97 and 98. I do not like comparing Lance to Eddy or Hinault, but Lance's record is comparable in this regard.

In Eddy's and Hinault's fourth season TdF's - they raced to WIN...and they won.
In 1999, Lance's fifth season Tdf - he race to WIN...and he won

Lance's TdF's 93-96, he was racing as a neo pro or racing for stage wins or racing with cancer. How would Eddy or Hinault have done if they raced the TdF during their first 4 years? They would have won some stages too lol, but we will never know...

Lance's transformation from one day racer who couldn't climb or TT (before Dr Ferrari) was Tony Rominger-esque. In fact, it is almost Bjarne Riis-esque. You should be proud of that.

 

[peloton]

Maybe you should just take a nap

http://www.livestrong.com/health-ar...en-work_ef4bfe24-9e31-003b-341e-396ebc1bb98b/

Hope the PR-team pays you well....

Ignored

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

What is my point?

Well, my main point is that the myth "Doping Transformed Lance into a TdF Winner" has not come even close to being proved. I do not think it will EVER be proved - just way way too many other variables

But to use Lance's 93-96 Tour performances as evidence to support the myth is especially weak.

Yes you are right. We got your point. He trained harder, the bikes got lighter and somewhere in 1999 he woke up and said now i ride for winning the TdF instead of going for stage wins only...

That´s the blueprint for every cyclist to gain 6 mins. in a 1-hour-TT and 28 mins. in a top-mountain-finish... Congrats to hard working, light biking, weight reducing Kenny van Hummel for winning the TdF in 2 years.

(It absolutley has nothing to do with working together with Dr.-Epo-Ferrari, a free pass to doping products others are not allowed, the use of steroids, the change in blood profiles during last years tour, the fight for the omerta and so on...)

Btw, you don´t really believe in what you write, you are just kidding, right?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What is my point?

Well, my main point is that the myth "Doping Transformed Lance into a TdF Winner" has not come even close to being proved. I do not think it will EVER be proved - just way way too many other variables

But to use Lance's 93-96 Tour performances as evidence to support the myth is especially weak.

Eddy and Hinault both won their first TdFs in their fourth pro seasons.
They are the 2 Greatest GT Riders of all Time in my opinion.

Lance won his first TdF in his fifth pro season if you do not include the years 97 and 98. I do not like comparing Lance to Eddy or Hinault, but Lance's record is comparable in this regard.

In Eddy's and Hinault's fourth season TdF's - they raced to WIN...and they won.
In 1999, Lance's fifth season Tdf - he race to WIN...and he won

Lance's TdF's 93-96, he was racing as a neo pro or racing for stage wins or racing with cancer. How would Eddy or Hinault have done if they raced the TdF during their first 4 years? They would have won some stages too lol, but we will never know...

Eddys first GT was the Giro,he was 9th with 2 stage wins -the following year rides his first TdF and wins it.

Hinaults first GT was the Vuelta which he wins and goes on to win his first TdF later the same year.

Am, Lance did win 2x Tour du Ponts, (in his 4th & 5th years as a Pro.)


We should give credit to who actually deserves it[.......

 

[Polish]

We should give credit to who actually deserves it[.......

Dr Ferrari owes his fame to Lance MUCH more than vice versa.
Lance made Dr Ferrari famous.

Dr Ferrari the awesome TdF KingMaker....
But what other riders did he coach to become multiple TdF winners?
Answer - none. You wonder why?

MYTH - Lance was a Rich Donkey with an Exclusivity Clause.

Oh Pleeeze.

C'mon, Dr Fuentes has a much better record lol.

 

[buckwheat]

(I went all google boy on this one some time ago for a fantasy MLB blog but forget where I got it but props to whomever did it anyway)


Lance Armstrong vs. Barry Bonds



Lance Armstrong – investigated by French authorities into alleged doping practices.

Same thing as Bonds: Federal investigation

Neither has tested positive for steroids or blood doping. Trainer tied to steroid, blood doping scam.

Both with significant and measurable body change

Both Dicks

But Bonds is chastised and Lance Armstrong hosts the ESPYs because:

A) Bonds plays America’s pastime

B) Lance overcame cancer

C) Lance is the stereotypical American hero

D) Lance is great with the media, great PR guy, very marketable. Barry Not

E) Perhaps because Lance is _ _ _ _ _?

play ball

Actually the comparison is very unfair to Bonds. By most accounts Bonds didn't start using steroids until after the '98 season. He was a three time MVP without them. He was a first ballot Hall of Famer before he ever juiced. Would he have the single season and all time HR records without juice? Of course not. He was a Frank Robinson, not a Babe Ruth, Willie Mays or Hank Aaron.

LA was a good pro one day racer. A solid rider but he was in no ones top 50 or top 100 for that matter while Bonds could really be considered an all time great before he juiced.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

(I went all google boy on this one some time ago for a fantasy MLB blog but forget where I got it but props to whomever did it anyway)


Lance Armstrong vs. Barry Bonds



Lance Armstrong – investigated by French authorities into alleged doping practices.

Same thing as Bonds: Federal investigation

into lying to the Feda/perjury

Neither has tested positive for steroids or blood doping. Trainer tied to steroid, blood doping scam.

It is part of history that LA tested positive for EPO (though outside the ISL and WADA code) for his 1999 samples. Additionally, it has been alluded to that he tested positive at a second-class tour for EPO, thus the alleged UCI "payment" of upwards of 500k USD to make it "go away" under the guise of fighting doping.

Both with significant and measurable body change

Both Dicks

But Bonds is chastised and Lance Armstrong hosts the ESPYs because:

A) Bonds plays America’s pastime

B) Lance overcame cancer

C) Lance is the stereotypical American hero

D) Lance is great with the media, great PR guy, very marketable. Barry Not

E) Perhaps because Lance is _ _ _ _ _?

play ball

Count me in as the first in the queue to take polish(meknob) to task for his blind, fan-boy faith in LA.

However, your post above is rife with mistakes. I have added some remarks for assistance.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

hey guys,

i must have accidentally clicked on the wrong forum or something but i found this "professional road racing" forum in the road section on this site. it's pretty cool. like, did you know that there were other cyclists out there that seem like they might be pretty interesting to talk about? oh yeah...and i learned that there's this bike race going on in italy right now that seems like it might be pretty neat.

huh...italy. of all places. what'll they think of next?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Dr Ferrari owes his fame to Lance MUCH more than vice versa.
Lance made Dr Ferrari famous.

Dr Ferrari the awesome TdF KingMaker....
But what other riders did he coach to become multiple TdF winners?
Answer - none. You wonder why?

MYTH - Lance was a Rich Donkey with an Exclusivity Clause.

Oh Pleeeze.

C'mon, Dr Fuentes has a much better record lol.

Are you a masochist? Don´t you get tired that everything you write is proven wrong by other forum members.

Here is the another blow to your latest post:

Epo-Lance didn´t make Ferrari. Ferrari made Pharmstrong.

Here are some clients which made Dr. Epo famous before this little american begged him for help:

the whole Gewiss-Team owning a complete classics season and set ITT-Records,
Gianni Bugno,
Tony Rominger,
Ivan Gotti,
Abraham Olano and
Claudio Chiappucci.
I only listed the most famous GT-Cyclists, because otherwise the list would have been endless.

 

[buckwheat]

oh c'mon... this has been funny-as-f**k to read

keep it coming folks, it's hard to believe, but not surprising to see some of the pro-lance stuff that was spouted by a couple of posters here...

Do you remember the Olivia Newton John song, "I Honestly Love You?"

That should be the fanboy theme for this thread.

 

[Polish]

Are you a masochist? Don´t you get tired that everything you write is proven wrong by other forum members.

Here is the another blow to your latest post:

Epo-Lance didn´t make Ferrari. Ferrari made Pharmstrong.

Here are some clients which made Dr. Epo famous before this little american begged him for help:

the whole Gewiss-Team owning a complete classics season and set ITT-Records,
Gianni Bugno,
Tony Rominger,
Ivan Gotti,
Abraham Olano and
Claudio Chiappucci.
I only listed the most famous GT-Cyclists, because otherwise the list would have been endless.

Foxxy, seriously - take a look at your list.
C'mon, you are trolling me right?

Are there any multiple Tour de France winners there? Heck no.
Are there any SINGLE Tour de France winners there? Nope sorry.
But Lance won one two three four five six seven.
Why is that?


Face it foxxy, Lance is the BEST thing that ever happened to Dr Ferrari.
The Doctor's vacation home on the beautiful island of Teneriffe is due to Lance.

Lance made Dr Ferrari. Dr Ferrari did NOT make Lance.

If it were not for Lance, Dr Ferrari's claim to fame would be Evgeni Berzin

 

[Runitout]

Foxxy, seriously - take a look at your list.
C'mon, you are trolling me right?

Are there any multiple Tour de France winners there? Heck no.
Are there any SINGLE Tour de France winners there? Nope sorry.
But Lance won one two three four five six seven.
Why is that?


Face it foxxy, Lance is the BEST thing that ever happened to Dr Ferrari.
The Doctor's vacation home on the beautiful island of Teneriffe is due to Lance.

Lance made Dr Ferrari. Dr Ferrari did NOT make Lance.

If it were not for Lance, Dr Ferrari's claim to fame would be Evgeni Berzin

Ferrari's claim to fame was 1994 Fleche Wallone. He was a legend well before Armstrong. Not just Berzin. Look at this list:
Paolo Savoldelli
Mario Cipollini
Gianni Bugno
Giorgio Furlan
Pavel Tonkov
Tony Rominger
Abraham Olano
Ivan Gotti
Claudio Chiappucci
Levi Leipheimer
Floyd Landis
Alexandre Vinokourov

7 other GT 'winners' by my count. There were rumours about Pantani as well; not sure if they have substance. Plenty there before Armstrong started paying dividends.

As Virenque said to Voet in 1996, "teaming up with Ferrari was like putting a saucepan up your backside: it was immediately obvious what you were doing.”

 

[Laszlo]

LA was a good pro one day racer. A solid rider but he was in no ones top 50 or top 100 for that matter while Bonds could really be considered an all time great before he juiced.

I got into road cycling just when Lance entered the picture; I recall the racing porno mags had a lot of articles about LA and his potiential to win the tdf; the other motorola guys got some press, but LA was pegged early on. I figured it was just marketing hype at the time- but pre cancer there was a lot of press about LAs potiential to become a champion racer. The expectations were high before each tour he entered.

 

[Laszlo]

As Virenque said to Voet in 1996, "teaming up with Ferrari was like putting a saucepan up your backside: it was immediately obvious what you were doing.”

Virenque, now there's a reputable character