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Preemo said:Thanks for your question and not flaming.
Ultimately what I am saying is that it is possible and valid to have a view that Lance did not use performance enhancing drugs. That reading this forum you might think that was not the case. A fair (in my opinion) view of the facts is that it is unproven. I acknowledge others have a different view and that too is valid. I'm not out to convince anyone or anything. I am not trying to bait or personalize the argument and I must say (thankfully) all the posters to date have been taken it in that spirit and responded in kind.
I hope that makes sense....I have spent what feels like several hours on this thread now and it is well past my bed-time so I will be signing off soon.
SpeedWay said:Great work Preemo. Going on 7 hours from your last post and the hyenas just won't let this thread die. You really whipped them up into a frenzy. They just can't help themselves or take their own advice. As always, EPIC success even if they don't know why. You've created a thread that pushed them past their usual circle jerk!
Astounding that with the thousands of posts, threads and many detailed links and evidence, you would dismiss all of it with that argument from some unseen authority.Preemo said:What is my warning - it is this: This forum is rife with rumour, circumstantial information and long bows drawn from a sprinkling of facts.
Usually with sharp logic, and facts. Unfortunately sometimes these same posters skin wears really thin and they give smart-ass, snarky responses, as you've now seen.This forum also has plenty of anti-Lance posters (many seem to be veterans of the Lance wars) who delight in finding and them swamping/overwhelming any pro-Lance posts.
As has been posted here, and other forums many times, this is not a case of "innocent until proven guilty", as this is not a court of law. It's a sport with rules written in contract all participants sign. If it takes conviction, as in sanctioning by said governing bodies, for you to accept proof, then you are right, Lance has not been "proven guilty" (though Levi Leipheimer, who you also reference, has). None the less, a huge preponderance of evidence has shown that any person thinking with logic, unclouded by admiration, would determine he has doped. It's listed in this thread, and many more....My default position remains innocent until proven guilty.
It appears you collapse everyone who believes Lance's guilt as an "anti-Lance hater". It is the position of many here that it is logical conclusions, based on factual evidence, that determine Lance has doped. Not whether they hate him, or anyone else, as a person.I am hoping the anti-Lance haters don't descend on this thread and destroy what I am trying to do.
Which shows you are starting with a biased viewpoint.I hope Lance has one more TDF victory left in his legs.
So does Betsy Andreu. I'll bet she knows more about him than you do.I know a lot more about Lance than other cyclists ....
Not exactly. This has been covered over and over and over in here. You say you are a long time lurker, if so, it's surprising you're trying to push this over onto people.The Vrijman's report also cleared Armstrong because of improper handling and testing. The report said the tests were conducted improperly...
Thoughtforfood said:Deleted by mod
Seriously, why it is that some LA fans have such a hard time coming to terms with the fact that LA was a doper? Why would it be any more difficult to accept that LA was doping than it is to accept that Pantani or Riis or Ullrich or Basso or Vino etc etc etc were doping?Preemo said:I'm a Lance Armstrong fan who believes Lance is a freak of nature honed by his background and supported by his focus, methods and strong team - but not by illegal performance enhancing drugs.
VeloCity said:Seriously, why it is that some LA fans have such a hard time coming to terms with the fact that LA was a doper? Why would it be any more difficult to accept that LA was doping than it is to accept that Pantani or Riis or Ullrich or Basso or Vino etc etc etc were doping?