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Nothing to add.Dekker_Tifosi said:I disagree.
Barguil got what he wanted in the Tour, total freedom and full support. He signed for Fortuneo, fair enough. STILL, Sunweb sent him to the Vuelta, they could have decided not to as he signed for another team as so many other teams do. But they didn't, because they always worked together well.
Sunweb's goal in the Vuelta was clear, Kelderman. Barguil knew this as well and agreed to this as well before getting selected. Then during the Vuelta, he finds he has good legs, and yesterday decided he wants to go his own way. Sunweb asks why he doesn't wait for Kelderman when he flatted. And it's clear, he wants to go his own way in the Vuelta with attacking in the mountains, he doesn't agree on staying with Kelderman. So Sunweb has no other choice then to boot him out.
This is Barguil's own damn fault and a really bad way to thank the team for supporting him all this time and even allowing him a Vuelta spot.
Barguil made it clear what kind of a character he is, and it isn't nice.
Irony : but if riders don't obey orders, DS can't implement the audacious strategies they have been known for.Lequack said:On the other hand this confirms that riders have become just radio controlled units for the team to do with as they please. Their only job just to turn the pedals, all free thought must go out the window. I don't want cycling to go into that direction. Imagine if every teams sport becomes like this, you will see soccer/football players start to wear ear pieces and being instructed where to send the ball.
I don't understand either why Oomen has to do domestique work for Kelderman on this Vuelta. this is the first opportunity to see what he is really worth.staubsauger said:Wouldn't be surprised if at the end the big winner of this polemic is Sam Oomen!
Then you'll have to rewatch the two stages Matthews won.SafeBet said:Nothing to add.Dekker_Tifosi said:I disagree.
Barguil got what he wanted in the Tour, total freedom and full support. He signed for Fortuneo, fair enough. STILL, Sunweb sent him to the Vuelta, they could have decided not to as he signed for another team as so many other teams do. But they didn't, because they always worked together well.
Sunweb's goal in the Vuelta was clear, Kelderman. Barguil knew this as well and agreed to this as well before getting selected. Then during the Vuelta, he finds he has good legs, and yesterday decided he wants to go his own way. Sunweb asks why he doesn't wait for Kelderman when he flatted. And it's clear, he wants to go his own way in the Vuelta with attacking in the mountains, he doesn't agree on staying with Kelderman. So Sunweb has no other choice then to boot him out.
This is Barguil's own damn fault and a really bad way to thank the team for supporting him all this time and even allowing him a Vuelta spot.
Barguil made it clear what kind of a character he is, and it isn't nice.
You need team players to have a good working environment. Barguil clearly isn't.
Let's say he sometimes is and sometimes isn't then.Alexandre B. said:Then you'll have to rewatch the two stages Matthews won.
Pozzovivo was always racing for GC, that was also stated by the team. Bardet, as a newcomer, had more of a free role. Then things happenned and both are out of contention, now chasing stages.Tonton said:What I would like to know is: what communication took place leading to the Vuelta? The team website says two leaders, what did the DS tell the riders, if anything? Was it made clear that Warren would dom for Wilco? If so, it's clear cut. If nothing was said until Wilco punctured, I put myself in Warren's shoes when instructions to wait are given via the earpiece...what???
Teams can be wishy washy. Alexandre, take your favorite team AG2R: it was "Pozzo is the leader", then days before the start of the Vuelta, Lavenu makes it clear that a rider of Bardet's stature can't just go for stages. Like the Froomes and Contadors of the world, what matters is the GC. Well, if I'm Pozzo and I read the CN article, same thing: I'm thinking...what???
There are things that we don't know. Things that may not have been said to the riders beforehand. Tough to either defend or condemn Barguill until I know what was or wasn't communicated.
Tonton said:What I would like to know is: what communication took place leading to the Vuelta? The team website says two leaders, what did the DS tell the riders, if anything? Was it made clear that Warren would dom for Wilco? If so, it's clear cut. If nothing was said until Wilco punctured, I put myself in Warren's shoes when instructions to wait are given via the earpiece...what???
Teams can be wishy washy. Alexandre, take your favorite team AG2R: it was "Pozzo is the leader", then days before the start of the Vuelta, Lavenu makes it clear that a rider of Bardet's stature can't just go for stages. Like the Froomes and Contadors of the world, what matters is the GC. Well, if I'm Pozzo and I read the CN article, same thing: I'm thinking...what???
There are things that we don't know. Things that may not have been said to the riders beforehand. Tough to either defend or condemn Barguill until I know what was or wasn't communicated.
Tonton said:I couldn't agree with you more. The team webpage quoted above suggests that Sunweb also pretty much agrees. Having several options for the GC is a good thing...now what happens if/when Wilco tanks? On the other hand, it's a team sport, do what the DS says. Not negotiable. It takes "coronas" for a team to do that: they could end up with no GC success whatsoever. I don't believe in WK.hrotha said:I think it's silly to have someone like Barguil babysit someone like Kelderman, but I don't think it's wrong to kick him out if he refused to do it either.
Alexandre B. said:Pozzovivo was always racing for GC, that was also stated by the team. Bardet, as a newcomer, had more of a free role. Then things happenned and both are out of contention, now chasing stages.Tonton said:What I would like to know is: what communication took place leading to the Vuelta? The team website says two leaders, what did the DS tell the riders, if anything? Was it made clear that Warren would dom for Wilco? If so, it's clear cut. If nothing was said until Wilco punctured, I put myself in Warren's shoes when instructions to wait are given via the earpiece...what???
Teams can be wishy washy. Alexandre, take your favorite team AG2R: it was "Pozzo is the leader", then days before the start of the Vuelta, Lavenu makes it clear that a rider of Bardet's stature can't just go for stages. Like the Froomes and Contadors of the world, what matters is the GC. Well, if I'm Pozzo and I read the CN article, same thing: I'm thinking...what???
There are things that we don't know. Things that may not have been said to the riders beforehand. Tough to either defend or condemn Barguill until I know what was or wasn't communicated.
This.jmdirt said:I think that the 'discussion' after the stage went poorly, and that had as much or more to do with this decision. Since we're all guessing here, I'm guessing that WB was an arshat at the post race meeting.
I forgot who said it above, but this has nothing to do with radios. Riders had team orders long before there were radios in their ear (pre race orders, team car beside them yelling, road capt. yelling/relaying, DSs along the road yelling). I'm not a fan of radios, but you're stretching too much here.
If you take only one situation MAYBE you could say that, but if you look at the how this team has operated over the last several years, you would realize that there is nothing immature about their management. As I said above, I suspect that WB did himself in at the post race meeting.Dazed and Confused said:Sounds like immature management to me. Anyway Barguil is probably happy to leave the task of pulling deadwood around....
Lequack said:On the other hand this confirms that riders have become just radio controlled units for the team to do with as they please. Their only job just to turn the pedals, all free thought must go out the window. I don't want cycling to go into that direction. Imagine if every teams sport becomes like this, you will see soccer/football players start to wear ear pieces and being instructed where to send the ball.
Ikbengodniet said:Lequack said:On the other hand this confirms that riders have become just radio controlled units for the team to do with as they please. Their only job just to turn the pedals, all free thought must go out the window. I don't want cycling to go into that direction. Imagine if every teams sport becomes like this, you will see soccer/football players start to wear ear pieces and being instructed where to send the ball.
Euh one of the most important things in a football squad is to complete your instructed task. If a player doesn't do as he told he will be substituted immediately.
Lequack said:I was not talking about the strategy in general, I was talking about micro managing the riders/players via radios.
Or rewarding loyalty. Remember that WB got out of his contract to leave the team. Most other teams wouldn't have even given him another race let alone a GT start.Fergoose said:Well that's a whole lot less exposure that Sunweb will get during this Vuelta. I consider the tactics of making one evenly matched rider lose time for a teammate who already has a domestique with them faintly absurd. I'd suggest it as questionable to even ask a Yates to do that for Chavez even though Chavez is clearly prioritising the Vuelta more. It's tactically pathetic. Putting Barguil in that position suggests favouritism by the team that is based neither on merit or on form - but based on nationality by a team with a Dutch/German heritage.
If Barguil had not been specifically instructed that he would only be selected on condition that he was to work selflessly for Kelderman regardless of their form then fair play to him in disregarding the order and defending his position post-race. If he was offered those condition in advance, accepted them, then reneged on them then he is foolish and has likely made an enemy of a very strong team. But I'd still sympathise with him out of the principal of having to wait for a rider who is not superior and who already had assistance from a domestique.
jmdirt said:Or rewarding loyalty. Remember that WB got out of his contract to leave the team. Most other teams wouldn't have even given him another race let alone a GT start.Fergoose said:Well that's a whole lot less exposure that Sunweb will get during this Vuelta. I consider the tactics of making one evenly matched rider lose time for a teammate who already has a domestique with them faintly absurd. I'd suggest it as questionable to even ask a Yates to do that for Chavez even though Chavez is clearly prioritising the Vuelta more. It's tactically pathetic. Putting Barguil in that position suggests favouritism by the team that is based neither on merit or on form - but based on nationality by a team with a Dutch/German heritage.
If Barguil had not been specifically instructed that he would only be selected on condition that he was to work selflessly for Kelderman regardless of their form then fair play to him in disregarding the order and defending his position post-race. If he was offered those condition in advance, accepted them, then reneged on them then he is foolish and has likely made an enemy of a very strong team. But I'd still sympathise with him out of the principal of having to wait for a rider who is not superior and who already had assistance from a domestique.