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Warren Barguil Discussion Thread

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I'm on Barguil's side here and I think the expulsion is ***. Cycling is a team sport only to a certain extent. If Barguil thinks he's better off going rogue, that's on him and he'll have to take the consequences in the future. But I disagree with taking a rider out of a race against his wishes except for issues that could harm the team as a whole.
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
I disagree.

Barguil got what he wanted in the Tour, total freedom and full support. He signed for Fortuneo, fair enough. STILL, Sunweb sent him to the Vuelta, they could have decided not to as he signed for another team as so many other teams do. But they didn't, because they always worked together well.

Sunweb's goal in the Vuelta was clear, Kelderman. Barguil knew this as well and agreed to this as well before getting selected. Then during the Vuelta, he finds he has good legs, and yesterday decided he wants to go his own way. Sunweb asks why he doesn't wait for Kelderman when he flatted. And it's clear, he wants to go his own way in the Vuelta with attacking in the mountains, he doesn't agree on staying with Kelderman. So Sunweb has no other choice then to boot him out.

This is Barguil's own damn fault and a really bad way to thank the team for supporting him all this time and even allowing him a Vuelta spot.
Barguil made it clear what kind of a character he is, and it isn't nice.
Nothing to add.
You need team players to have a good working environment. Barguil clearly isn't.
 
Mar 1, 2017
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Lequack said:
On the other hand this confirms that riders have become just radio controlled units for the team to do with as they please. Their only job just to turn the pedals, all free thought must go out the window. I don't want cycling to go into that direction. Imagine if every teams sport becomes like this, you will see soccer/football players start to wear ear pieces and being instructed where to send the ball.
Irony : but if riders don't obey orders, DS can't implement the audacious strategies they have been known for.
 
Mar 1, 2017
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staubsauger said:
Wouldn't be surprised if at the end the big winner of this polemic is Sam Oomen!
I don't understand either why Oomen has to do domestique work for Kelderman on this Vuelta. this is the first opportunity to see what he is really worth.
 
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SafeBet said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
I disagree.

Barguil got what he wanted in the Tour, total freedom and full support. He signed for Fortuneo, fair enough. STILL, Sunweb sent him to the Vuelta, they could have decided not to as he signed for another team as so many other teams do. But they didn't, because they always worked together well.

Sunweb's goal in the Vuelta was clear, Kelderman. Barguil knew this as well and agreed to this as well before getting selected. Then during the Vuelta, he finds he has good legs, and yesterday decided he wants to go his own way. Sunweb asks why he doesn't wait for Kelderman when he flatted. And it's clear, he wants to go his own way in the Vuelta with attacking in the mountains, he doesn't agree on staying with Kelderman. So Sunweb has no other choice then to boot him out.

This is Barguil's own damn fault and a really bad way to thank the team for supporting him all this time and even allowing him a Vuelta spot.
Barguil made it clear what kind of a character he is, and it isn't nice.
Nothing to add.
You need team players to have a good working environment. Barguil clearly isn't.
Then you'll have to rewatch the two stages Matthews won.
 
What I would like to know is: what communication took place leading to the Vuelta? The team website says two leaders, what did the DS tell the riders, if anything? Was it made clear that Warren would dom for Wilco? If so, it's clear cut. If nothing was said until Wilco punctured, I put myself in Warren's shoes when instructions to wait are given via the earpiece...what???

Teams can be wishy washy. Alexandre, take your favorite team AG2R: it was "Pozzo is the leader", then days before the start of the Vuelta, Lavenu makes it clear that a rider of Bardet's stature can't just go for stages. Like the Froomes and Contadors of the world, what matters is the GC. Well, if I'm Pozzo and I read the CN article, same thing: I'm thinking...what???

There are things that we don't know. Things that may not have been said to the riders beforehand. Tough to either defend or condemn Barguill until I know what was or wasn't communicated.
 
Tonton said:
What I would like to know is: what communication took place leading to the Vuelta? The team website says two leaders, what did the DS tell the riders, if anything? Was it made clear that Warren would dom for Wilco? If so, it's clear cut. If nothing was said until Wilco punctured, I put myself in Warren's shoes when instructions to wait are given via the earpiece...what???

Teams can be wishy washy. Alexandre, take your favorite team AG2R: it was "Pozzo is the leader", then days before the start of the Vuelta, Lavenu makes it clear that a rider of Bardet's stature can't just go for stages. Like the Froomes and Contadors of the world, what matters is the GC. Well, if I'm Pozzo and I read the CN article, same thing: I'm thinking...what???

There are things that we don't know. Things that may not have been said to the riders beforehand. Tough to either defend or condemn Barguill until I know what was or wasn't communicated.
Pozzovivo was always racing for GC, that was also stated by the team. Bardet, as a newcomer, had more of a free role. Then things happenned and both are out of contention, now chasing stages.
 
Tonton said:
What I would like to know is: what communication took place leading to the Vuelta? The team website says two leaders, what did the DS tell the riders, if anything? Was it made clear that Warren would dom for Wilco? If so, it's clear cut. If nothing was said until Wilco punctured, I put myself in Warren's shoes when instructions to wait are given via the earpiece...what???

Teams can be wishy washy. Alexandre, take your favorite team AG2R: it was "Pozzo is the leader", then days before the start of the Vuelta, Lavenu makes it clear that a rider of Bardet's stature can't just go for stages. Like the Froomes and Contadors of the world, what matters is the GC. Well, if I'm Pozzo and I read the CN article, same thing: I'm thinking...what???

There are things that we don't know. Things that may not have been said to the riders beforehand. Tough to either defend or condemn Barguill until I know what was or wasn't communicated.
In the end this is the deciding point. Was Barguil promised a free role before? We don't know - so hard to say who is right and unright really.

And like mentioned before, at the Tour he did work for Matthews and had no problem with it.
 
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Tonton said:
hrotha said:
I think it's silly to have someone like Barguil babysit someone like Kelderman, but I don't think it's wrong to kick him out if he refused to do it either.
I couldn't agree with you more. The team webpage quoted above suggests that Sunweb also pretty much agrees. Having several options for the GC is a good thing...now what happens if/when Wilco tanks? On the other hand, it's a team sport, do what the DS says. Not negotiable. It takes "coronas" for a team to do that: they could end up with no GC success whatsoever. I don't believe in WK.
It also takes "coronas" to say no to a stupid idea though.
 
Alexandre B. said:
Tonton said:
What I would like to know is: what communication took place leading to the Vuelta? The team website says two leaders, what did the DS tell the riders, if anything? Was it made clear that Warren would dom for Wilco? If so, it's clear cut. If nothing was said until Wilco punctured, I put myself in Warren's shoes when instructions to wait are given via the earpiece...what???

Teams can be wishy washy. Alexandre, take your favorite team AG2R: it was "Pozzo is the leader", then days before the start of the Vuelta, Lavenu makes it clear that a rider of Bardet's stature can't just go for stages. Like the Froomes and Contadors of the world, what matters is the GC. Well, if I'm Pozzo and I read the CN article, same thing: I'm thinking...what???

There are things that we don't know. Things that may not have been said to the riders beforehand. Tough to either defend or condemn Barguill until I know what was or wasn't communicated.
Pozzovivo was always racing for GC, that was also stated by the team. Bardet, as a newcomer, had more of a free role. Then things happenned and both are out of contention, now chasing stages.
You're making my point. But imagine Pozzo reading this...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bardet-the-vuelta-is-a-voyage-into-the-unknown

...and ask himself: Am I the leader? Co-leader? What happens if Romain is 45" ahead of me in the GC?

Reading the CN stories pre-Vuelta about Sunweb, it was quite unclear as well. Was Warren co-leader? Going for stages was clearly stated...similarities.
 
I think that the 'discussion' after the stage went poorly, and that had as much or more to do with this decision. Since we're all guessing here, I'm guessing that WB was an arshat at the post race meeting.

I forgot who said it above, but this has nothing to do with radios. Riders had team orders long before there were radios in their ear (pre race orders, team car beside them yelling, road capt. yelling/relaying, DSs along the road yelling). I'm not a fan of radios, but you're stretching too much here.
 
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jmdirt said:
I think that the 'discussion' after the stage went poorly, and that had as much or more to do with this decision. Since we're all guessing here, I'm guessing that WB was an arshat at the post race meeting.

I forgot who said it above, but this has nothing to do with radios. Riders had team orders long before there were radios in their ear (pre race orders, team car beside them yelling, road capt. yelling/relaying, DSs along the road yelling). I'm not a fan of radios, but you're stretching too much here.
This.

It probably had more to do to WB reaction to the coach after the stage than the team orders. They both had a clear shot at GC. But orders are orders and he was on the way out, so Sunweb played their chances to their advantage. However I can see a coach letting the issue go since both had a shot. However the discussion probably went sour!
 
Jul 16, 2011
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Quote from the Cyclingnews article:

The team confirmed that there were several instances but admitted that Barguil’s decision not to wait for Kelderman after the Dutchman punctured on stage 7 and lost time was detrimental.

“You can see it as a general thing but we have the goal of supporting Wilco for GC in the Vuelta and all the other guys are working towards that. We have a strategy to work towards that but everyone has to move in the same direction,” the team added.


OK, if he is disobeying orders (especially repeatedly and vocally), the team management has to discipline him.

However, since Barguil was declared co-leader before the race, Sunweb are sending out some really mixed messages here.

Given the race position, I don't think ordering Barguil back to help Kelderman was the right decision, but orders are orders. Neither side comes out smelling of roses.
 
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Dazed and Confused said:
Sounds like immature management to me. Anyway Barguil is probably happy to leave the task of pulling deadwood around....
If you take only one situation MAYBE you could say that, but if you look at the how this team has operated over the last several years, you would realize that there is nothing immature about their management. As I said above, I suspect that WB did himself in at the post race meeting.

Plus, that deadwood didn't get out of his contract to move to another team, and may be one of the future leaders on the team.
 
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Lequack said:
On the other hand this confirms that riders have become just radio controlled units for the team to do with as they please. Their only job just to turn the pedals, all free thought must go out the window. I don't want cycling to go into that direction. Imagine if every teams sport becomes like this, you will see soccer/football players start to wear ear pieces and being instructed where to send the ball.
Euh one of the most important things in a football squad is to complete your instructed task. If a player doesn't do as he told he will be substituted immediately.
 
Re: Re:

Ikbengodniet said:
Lequack said:
On the other hand this confirms that riders have become just radio controlled units for the team to do with as they please. Their only job just to turn the pedals, all free thought must go out the window. I don't want cycling to go into that direction. Imagine if every teams sport becomes like this, you will see soccer/football players start to wear ear pieces and being instructed where to send the ball.
Euh one of the most important things in a football squad is to complete your instructed task. If a player doesn't do as he told he will be substituted immediately.
Yes I did a double take at the football comparison. Football is a more straightforwardly team sport and individual players would be not just substituted but out of a job very quickly if they made a habit of deciding not to bother carrying out the team's strategy.
 
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Lequack said:
I was not talking about the strategy in general, I was talking about micro managing the riders/players via radios.
Expecting riders to help the team leader when he gets a puncture, in particular when they have nothing much at stake at the time themselves, isn't really micromanaging and certainly isn't something that radios brought to the sport. Radios are bad in many, many ways, but this isn't one of them.
 
On the NBC coverage today, Baden Cooke said a couple of things about this: first, that Barguil and Kelderman are long-time rivals and "hate" each other; second, that he had heard rumours that there was some sort of exchange between the two of them last night. He emphasized the "hate" several times.
 
Well that's a whole lot less exposure that Sunweb will get during this Vuelta. I consider the tactics of making one evenly matched rider lose time for a teammate who already has a domestique with them faintly absurd. I'd suggest it as questionable to even ask a Yates to do that for Chavez even though Chavez is clearly prioritising the Vuelta more. It's tactically pathetic. Putting Barguil in that position suggests favouritism by the team that is based neither on merit or on form - but based on nationality by a team with a Dutch/German heritage.

If Barguil had not been specifically instructed that he would only be selected on condition that he was to work selflessly for Kelderman regardless of their form then fair play to him in disregarding the order and defending his position post-race. If he was offered those condition in advance, accepted them, then reneged on them then he is foolish and has likely made an enemy of a very strong team. But I'd still sympathise with him out of the principal of having to wait for a rider who is not superior and who already had assistance from a domestique.
 
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Fergoose said:
Well that's a whole lot less exposure that Sunweb will get during this Vuelta. I consider the tactics of making one evenly matched rider lose time for a teammate who already has a domestique with them faintly absurd. I'd suggest it as questionable to even ask a Yates to do that for Chavez even though Chavez is clearly prioritising the Vuelta more. It's tactically pathetic. Putting Barguil in that position suggests favouritism by the team that is based neither on merit or on form - but based on nationality by a team with a Dutch/German heritage.

If Barguil had not been specifically instructed that he would only be selected on condition that he was to work selflessly for Kelderman regardless of their form then fair play to him in disregarding the order and defending his position post-race. If he was offered those condition in advance, accepted them, then reneged on them then he is foolish and has likely made an enemy of a very strong team. But I'd still sympathise with him out of the principal of having to wait for a rider who is not superior and who already had assistance from a domestique.
Or rewarding loyalty. Remember that WB got out of his contract to leave the team. Most other teams wouldn't have even given him another race let alone a GT start.
 
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jmdirt said:
Fergoose said:
Well that's a whole lot less exposure that Sunweb will get during this Vuelta. I consider the tactics of making one evenly matched rider lose time for a teammate who already has a domestique with them faintly absurd. I'd suggest it as questionable to even ask a Yates to do that for Chavez even though Chavez is clearly prioritising the Vuelta more. It's tactically pathetic. Putting Barguil in that position suggests favouritism by the team that is based neither on merit or on form - but based on nationality by a team with a Dutch/German heritage.

If Barguil had not been specifically instructed that he would only be selected on condition that he was to work selflessly for Kelderman regardless of their form then fair play to him in disregarding the order and defending his position post-race. If he was offered those condition in advance, accepted them, then reneged on them then he is foolish and has likely made an enemy of a very strong team. But I'd still sympathise with him out of the principal of having to wait for a rider who is not superior and who already had assistance from a domestique.
Or rewarding loyalty. Remember that WB got out of his contract to leave the team. Most other teams wouldn't have even given him another race let alone a GT start.
Maybe they considered it punishment, they let him race but he has to work for someone else.
 

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