Wattage for a 40km/h TT??

[biketechreview.com]

Just wondering if anyone has real life power data from a 40 KK TT which was done in less than an hour? (on the road not the track).

I've not done a 40k in quite some time, but plenty of 20k's in under 30 min. Happy to offer info on those rides if you like.

Furthermore, I'm surprised that folks in this thread haven't offered up that normanalised/gizmo power is not the metric of interest you ought to be after for comparative purposes.

Real Power^TM/Average Power is where it's at when it comes to gaining insight into these sorts of things.

 

[Tapeworm]

I've not done a 40k in quite some time, but plenty of 20k's in under 30 min. Happy to offer info on those rides if you like.

Furthermore, I'm surprised that folks in this thread haven't offered up that normanalised/gizmo power is not the metric of interest you ought to be after for comparative purposes.

Real Power^TM/Average Power is where it's at when it comes to gaining insight into these sorts of things.

How? And why.

And what is "real power"?

 

[biketechreview.com]

How? And why.

And what is "real power"?

going fast on a bike is about supply and demand. supply is the power you can generate. demand is the external forces that must be overcome (rolling resistance, axial force/aerodynamics, gravity, drivetrain losses).

increase the supply while maintaining demand and you'll go faster. maintain supply while reducing demand and you'll go faster...but this is true only if "supply" is your real power (the power you actually make). Normanalised power is not in the equation of motion of a cyclist.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Normanalised power is not in the equation of motion of a cyclist.

No word substitution on here.

Normalised power of course does provide insight into how we are producing that power, and whether or not we could have dosed out our effort better.

That's the 3rd P of the power, piercing wind and pacing troika that makes for faster TT performance.

 

[oldborn]

What is next Andrew R. Coggan fan page?

It is not really enough to have a power meter and software to download data, it is not accurate guys.

So PhD. Coggan introduce us with Normalised power, Intensity factor and Training Stress Score resaerch and excell table to look how reallly we train.

I mean what next after FTHR, FTP, Avg Power, Normalised power, IF, TSS, Sweet Spot, maybe how to make PHd from nothing.

I would stick with simple perceived effort scale and old fashion weights then.
Lot of those stuff can help, but what is enough is enough, for 10 years on all those definitions and terms will be wrong, i bet.

 

[Oldman]

What is next Andrew R. Coggan fan page?

It is not really enough to have a power meter and software to download data, it is not accurate guys.

So PhD. Coggan introduce us with Normalised power, Intensity factor and Training Stress Score resaerch and excell table to look how reallly we train.

I mean what next FTHR, FTP, Avg Power, Normalised power, IF, TSS, maybe how to make PHd from nothing.

I would stick with simple perceived effort scale then.
Lot of those stuff can help, but what is enough is enough, for 10 years on all those definitions and terms will be wrong, i bet.

True enough. I can believe in a stationary, wind-tunnel based measurements for the aerodynamic factors as a guide. Ergonomic and natural environment are on equal performance terms from my experience and the best starting point. The starting question involved wattage output but that might not be the final question.

 

[biketechreview.com]

No word substitution on here.

I typed "normanalised" which is not a trademarked "for profit" term.

Normanalised power of course does provide insight<snip>

i agree that it provides insight - but, rather, it provides insight into the world of marketing and business. In a thread about how many watts it takes to do 40km in one hour, it just adds to the already plentiful sources of confusion.

Again, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, gizmo power is not in the equation of motion for a cyclist.

 

[biketechreview.com]

It is not really enough to have a power meter and software to download data, it is not accurate guys.

I agree with you that a power meter by itself is insufficient. However, when the OP asks about watts to cover 40km in an hour, surely it is helpful to have one at your disposal in order to ballpark things, eh?

 

[biketechreview.com]

to the OP:

20 km TT at sea level in 29:15 on around 255W average power. Saddle height at the time was probably 81.5cm with maybe 9cm of drop between top of saddle to bars. I think that ride was done using a Trek TTT.

But, I've gone faster than that using this bike (watts unknown since I was on 140mm BMX cranks at the time):

cheers, and I hope this helps.

 

[microdose]

to the OP:

20 km TT at sea level in 29:15 on around 255W average power. Saddle height at the time was probably 81.5cm with maybe 9cm of drop between top of saddle to bars. I think that ride was done using a Trek TTT.

But, I've gone faster than that using this bike (watts unknown since I was on 140mm BMX cranks at the time):

cheers, and I hope this helps.

thanks for the info. how much do you weigh? my guess is I would need to produce around 300W for that speed.

on the issue of NP it's not my intent to sell/promote/whatever any term - just provide average power instead (unless it is a really hilly course it is highly likely that they will be within 2% of each other anyway)

 

[acoggan]

I typed "normanalised" which is not a trademarked "for profit" term.

i agree that it provides insight - but, rather, it provides insight into the world of marketing and business.

You'd need to talk to the folks at TrainingPeaks LLC about marketing, business, etc., Kraig, as I have never trademarked or patented anything.

In a thread about how many watts it takes to do 40km in one hour, it just adds to the already plentiful sources of confusion.

On this I would tend to agree with you.

 

[acoggan]

Just wondering if anyone has real life power data from a 40 KK TT which was done in less than an hour? (on the road not the track).

Dozens.

There are plenty of calculators around to estimate the required wattage but then you need to know rolling resistance and aerodynamic resistance etc. I'd be interested to know from anyone's actual data, if they have riden 40K in under hour, the following info:
- Normalised Power,
- Weight,
- Bike setup; and
- General comments about the course.
Thanks.

The best I have done (on a single bike) is a 51:52. Average power was 269 W, my "all-up" mass was 76 kg, and I was riding a borrowed P3C with Zipp 808/disk clincher wheels. The course (at 6200 ft altitude in Moriarty, NM) was out-and-back on a flat road (only one slight up/down grade) with moderately rough pavement.

 

[microdose]

Dozens.

Obviously you do for the people you train as well. Do you have any particular examples that might fit "my profile", i.e. total mass of around 85 kg and a sea level flat course? Thanks.

 

[biketechreview.com]

how much do you weigh?

71 kg +/- 2.5 kg. I'm 1.83m-ish tall.

What, exactly, are you trying to assess with your original question?

 

[acoggan]

Dozens.

Obviously you do for the people you train as well. Do you have any particular examples that might fit "my profile", i.e. total mass of around 85 kg and a sea level flat course? Thanks.

Well, not being a coach I don't train anyone. With respect to your question, though, I think your best hope would be to estimate your CdA using one (or more) of the various formulae that are available, then plug that along with other reasonable assumptions into the calculator at, e.g., analyticcycling.com

 

[microdose]

71 kg +/- 2.5 kg. I'm 1.83m-ish tall.

What, exactly, are you trying to assess with your original question?

Just the wattage I would need to ride the 40 K TT in under an hour.

Last year I rode at 267 W but only about 34 km/h on a road bike with TT bars and TT position on a fairly rough surface, with total weight on about 86 kg. So obviously alot slower than I need to be and although I can use the calculators to estimate things I ws trying to get real world examples. My conclusion so far is that I probably need to look at improving my CdA quite a bit.

 

[acoggan]

What is next Andrew R. Coggan fan page?

It is not really enough to have a power meter and software to download data, it is not accurate guys.

So PhD. Coggan introduce us with Normalised power, Intensity factor and Training Stress Score resaerch and excell table to look how reallly we train.

I mean what next after FTHR, FTP, Avg Power, Normalised power, IF, TSS, Sweet Spot, maybe how to make PHd from nothing.

You forgot power profiling, quadrant analysis, and the Performance Manager.

But seriously: you seem to be laboring under a common misconception, i.e., that I make my living doing applied sports science research. It is true that I earned my PhD by doing these studies for my dissertation:

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Reversal of fatigue during prolonged exercise by carbohydrate infusion or ingestion. J Appl Physiol 1987; 63:2388-2395. Cited 202 times.

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Effect of carbohydrate feedings during high-intensity exercise. J Appl Physiol 1988; 65:1703-1709. Cited 88 times.

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Metabolism and performance following carbohydrate ingestion late in exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1989; 21:59-65. Cited 81 times.

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Carbohydrate ingestion during prolonged exercise: effects on metabolism and performance. In: Holloszy JO, ed. Exercise and Sports Sciences Reviews, Vol. 19. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1991: 1-40. Cited 232 times.

but since then I've not done any research in which performance was an outcome variable/variable of interest. Rather, I spend my days doing Real Science^TM metabolic research funded by, e.g., the NIH...anything cycling-related with which I am associated is really just a hobby.

 

[oldborn]

You forgot power profiling, quadrant analysis, and the Performance Manager.

Those are mine favorites off course, but i like also these one: Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.

But seriously: you seem to be laboring under a common misconception, i.e., that I make my living doing applied sports science research.

No sure not. Scientist are allways having bad times, remember Kopernik
I am just not a fan off quadrant analysis softwere for 75 USD, which is not applied science of course.
Do not get me wrong i am a kind of old school approach.

Do you know who is mine favorite coach? Ante Kostelić, he raised and trained one of the greatest women skiing athletes Janica, and World cup currently leading skiier Ivica Kostelić, purely on rudimentary training techniques.
Off course science as medicine help them a lot due injuries, but everything is possible just with hard work and without normalised power term.

It is true that I earned my PhD by doing these studies for my dissertation:

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Reversal of fatigue during prolonged exercise by carbohydrate infusion or ingestion. J Appl Physiol 1987; 63:2388-2395. Cited 202 times.

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Effect of carbohydrate feedings during high-intensity exercise. J Appl Physiol 1988; 65:1703-1709. Cited 88 times.

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Metabolism and performance following carbohydrate ingestion late in exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1989; 21:59-65. Cited 81 times.

Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Carbohydrate ingestion during prolonged exercise: effects on metabolism and performance. In: Holloszy JO, ed. Exercise and Sports Sciences Reviews, Vol. 19. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1991: 1-40. Cited 232 times..

Impressive, and i am sure that there is something there.

but since then I've not done any research in which performance was an outcome variable/variable of interest. Rather, I spend my days doing Real Science^TM metabolic research funded by, e.g., the NIH...anything cycling-related with which I am associated is really just a hobby.

Wish you luck, and you are welcome to post here, cos Coach Fergie is away for a while.
I almost forgot "the question of all questions" are you weight in cyling fan or not? My friend Polyarmour does not beleive.

Stay well!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I am just not a fan off quadrant analysis softwere for 75 USD,

All one needs is a spreadsheet (that can produce a chart from your raw power meter data) some of which can be freely downloaded.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Again, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, gizmo power is not in the equation of motion for a cyclist.

I've never said otherwise.

However if one rides at a given average power but paces very poorly, then they will ride more slowly overall than they might have. This is where NP can help a rider learn a little more about how they are dosing out their available energy, since it's providing some insight into the physiological aspects of pacing, not the physical aspects.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that the physiological "cost" of riding is not linearly related to power output.

As for your "commercial" arguments, the NP formula is freely available in the public domain. One does not need to pay anything to anyone to do your own calculations.

 

[biketechreview.com]

I've never said otherwise.

Well, then, I guess that means I should have given you
(and others?) less benefit of the doubt when I posted originally? Given the obtuse reply of yours that I've quoted above, I reckon I could have made my initial post something more along the lines of:

"Furthermore, I'm _NOT_ surprised that folks in this thread...<snip the gist of my initial quote>"

However if one rides at a given average power but paces very poorly, then they will ride more slowly overall than they might have.

yes, pacing can matter a bit (there's an asymmetric loss function to consider after all)...though, I'm a caveman who likes to keep things real simple and not make any unnecessary assumptions when it comes to this sort of stuff...I like to use the pareto principle when it comes to the pacing deal - it's not real complicated when looking at it from that perspective...I feel as if there's 7 commandments when it comes to doing TT's on the road of any significant duration - no assumptions/math problems required:

1) don't overcook the start/first few minutes
2) don't overcook the start/first few minutes
3) don't overcook the start/first few minutes
4) go a little harder on the uphills
5) go a little easier on the downhills
6) don't doubt yourself
7) have fun!

but that kind of caveman advice (which more than likely gets you real close to "optimal" - and, what gets you the rest of the way, I reckon, is by actually doing the effort a couple times!) doesn't really inspire people to hire me as a coach offering "TT pacing math services" does it?

I'm sure you'll agree with me that the physiological "cost" of riding is not linearly related to power output.

Well, actually, a google search using this verbatim string (including the quotes at the beginning and end):

"rick murphy's normanalized power"

would be a way for folks to gain insight on what I, and others, believe regarding your assurances.

As for your "commercial" arguments, the GP (sic) formula is freely available in the public domain. One does not need to pay anything to anyone to do your own calculations.

yet, you use the trademarked/for profit term to market your services/proprietary/not in the public domain software:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=1808498;search_string=pacing%20marmotte;#1808498

just to make it clear to folks reading...I'm a capitalist pig that runs a website with a profit motive...just want to make that crystal clear for everyone reading at home! ;-)

...and, here's a fun plot from a blog entry I wrote moons ago regarding pacing, TT's and Brad Wiggins:

 

[biketechreview.com]

Just the wattage I would need to ride the 40 K TT in under an hour.

comparing yourself to others on internet web forums (where things can often times get biased one way or the other), then, might just wind up being a poor use of your time.

My conclusion so far is that I probably need to look at improving my CxA (sic) quite a bit.

This might be true, but, CxA does not operate in isolation (and/or you might not be able to improve your CxA much based on your morphology) -> again, speed is about the balance of supply and demand.

 

[Tapeworm]

Well, actually, a google search using this verbatim string (including the quotes at the beginning and end):

"rick murphy's normanalized power"

would be a way for folks to gain insight on what I, and others, believe regarding your assurances.

yet, you use the trademarked/for profit term to market your services/proprietary/not in the public domain software:

And lo! It yields a thread on your website. What a surprise

 

[usedtobefast]

Just the wattage I would need to ride the 40 K TT in under an hour.

Last year I rode at 267 W but only about 34 km/h on a road bike with TT bars and TT position on a fairly rough surface, with total weight on about 86 kg. So obviously alot slower than I need to be and although I can use the calculators to estimate things I ws trying to get real world examples. My conclusion so far is that I probably need to look at improving my CdA quite a bit.

has anyone answered your question? i see a lot of numbers.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

yes, pacing can matter a bit (there's an asymmetric loss function to consider after all)...though, I'm a caveman who likes to keep things real simple and not make any unnecessary assumptions when it comes to this sort of stuff...I like to use the pareto principle when it comes to the pacing deal - it's not real complicated when looking at it from that perspective...I feel as if there's 7 commandments when it comes to doing TT's on the road of any significant duration - no assumptions/math problems required:

1) don't overcook the start/first few minutes
2) don't overcook the start/first few minutes
3) don't overcook the start/first few minutes
4) go a little harder on the uphills
5) go a little easier on the downhills
6) don't doubt yourself
7) have fun!

but that kind of caveman advice (which more than likely gets you real close to "optimal" - and, what gets you the rest of the way, I reckon, is by actually doing the effort a couple times!) doesn't really inspire people to hire me as a coach offering "TT pacing math services" does it?

Well I completely agree with this approach and have stated similar such advice on many pacing threads. I works for events as short as individual pursuits right up to ultra long events.

The only thing I would add to that is the advice on going a little harder on the uphill and easier on the downhill depends a bit on whether you are using a power meter to help guide you, or relying on what you feel.

Typically I describe the sensations of going harder up and a little easier down (harder/easier in power terms) as actually feeling like you are holding back a little on the climbs but working the downhills hard (unless it's steep descent of course where a tuck might be better) as that approach by feel usually get you closer to the desired harder/easier in power terms and avoids over powering the ascents.

Well, actually, a google search using this verbatim string (including the quotes at the beginning and end):

"rick murphy's normanalized power"

would be a way for folks to gain insight on what I, and others, believe regarding your assurances.

So you disagree that an increase in intensity is not linearly (or is curvilinearly) related to the physiological cost?

yet, you use the trademarked/for profit term to market your services/proprietary/not in the public domain software:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=1808498;search_string=pacing%20marmotte;#1808498

Where in that thread do I suggest that I market this as a commercial offering? I've provided all my thoughts on this to the public domain.

Some people wanted me to provide the service, but it really isn't worth the effort. I simply keep it up my sleeve for clients for whom I want to quantify the size of their pacing problem, if I suspect from inspection of their power data that they have one. Quantifying it helps to put the Pareto principle into action.

Besides, there are new pacing analysis website services emerging using similar approaches.

just to make it clear to folks reading...I'm a capitalist pig that runs a website with a profit motive...just want to make that crystal clear for everyone reading at home! ;-)

And I am a professional cycling coach that earns a living by helping riders perform better and attain their cycling goals.