Well done with the pro teams

[The Hitch]

Come on, Hitch... didn't you study History? Rousseau, Enlightenment, it's really a no brainer

I do study history. And a bit of a fail on my part as i did study Rousseau. so its a word play. Now i get it

It's the reason I don't wanna see evans winning i think And I assume why you don't want gesink to win



he seems to have his peaks.
But I'm not sure he really cuts it in the classics. He has a decent sprint uphill, but I don't think he likes the continuous hills.

Nah not Gesink. I have nothing against Gesink, he has balls. You dutch forumites are all right. Just a bit of banter now and again between us. Besides you gus know Rabos limitations and half the comments about them from you guys are jokes. Like calling them rabobus, or Dekker T saying Gesink can tt

I was thinking more along the lines of El pis troll ero and fellow Gilbertites turning me into a bit of a Cancellara supporter. Or having a soft spot for Cav when i see 10 comments saying he wouldnt win a race without a leadout.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Do you understand what anymore means?

It is not possible to be 100% ignorant and that comment also makes you look ignorant anyway as that is a totally illogical standpoint. You also don't mind chucking in an insult in a while when someone questions your credibility.

this has nothing to do with my point, I wasn't going for punctuation but yeah well done on winning that battle My credibility has nothing to do with it, so many people have attacked you in this thread, there is a trend here that has nothing do with me. Every time you post the more I think you are clueless in regard to cycling

--

Nah not Gesink. I have nothing against Gesink, he has balls. You dutch forumites are all right. Just a bit of banter now and again between us. Besides you gus know Rabos limitations and half the comments about them from you guys are jokes. Like calling them rabobus, or Dekker T saying Gesink can tt

I was thinking more along the lines of El pis troll ero and fellow Gilbertites turning me into a bit of a Cancellara supporter. Or having a soft spot for Cav when i see 10 comments saying he wouldnt win a race without a leadout.

well said sir.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Cunego ain't no stage racer anymore.

OK, I avoided wading in first time I saw this, but...........
I think Cunego is still a more than useful stage racer.
For instance, were he to target Paris-Nice, which he never has, it would be right up his alley. Could win it, easily.

So, I would assume you mean he's no GT rider anymore.
Very true, in terms of the GC, but he's still more than handy at grabbing stage wins.

Now, to my mind, Cunego is very much the sort of rider BMC should be looking to sign. Get rid of Quinziato and one of their other cobbles wannabees. The team is top heavy in this dept.
Cunego could have added another dimension to their hilly classics campaign, rode the Giro as a recognised team leader and offered far better mountain support to Cadel, at the Tour.

He would have been worth any 3 of the riders they have signed.

 

[Matthijs]

Cunego riding for another captain? while he is still God in Italy? Why should he ever do that? He's solid at the hilly classics (not the strongest this year but top10 finish at AGR or FW). He wins good races allmost every year. I'll bet he will be there at the 2012 worlds too. There's no reason he should became a domestique...

To be fair, I think in discussing with ACF, some people hype the Volta Portugal a little bit. Hard racing isn't the same as top racing. The same reason in the preseason riders want flat races like TDU, Qatar etc Simoni and Cunego are not so stupid they are going to kill themself for a top5 in Portugal. I don't think them ending under Sinkewitz proving anything. Even so, Tondo won the race a few years back does not mean that much. Contador won Algarve, does that mean it is as hard as the Tour which he also won?
I do not say it is easy racing in Portugal, but these arguments are not that convincing. And besides, people state the Portugal racing scene is very self-centered. Still, it's surprising allmost no one seems to brake out this circle to compete at an international toplevel...

Also, van Avermaet is maybe not the best sprinter, but still 5th at this worlds (after attacking himself and working for Gilbert). Won the pointsjersey at the Vuelta (08?). Very strong guy, who can ride finals after 260k. I'm highly interested what he can do in the classics now he doesn't have to work for Gilbert...

 

[nvpacchi]

Nah. For Libertine its the Amets Awakening.

I was thinking the Txurruka Txarge would be more appropriate

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So your over hyping a Kump so I might start to resent him just like david blanco! They are worse. Van avermaet has won stages of la vuelta, tour of belgium... kristoff has won national championships in a sprint against Hushovd when he was 19. Kristoff and van avermaet are far more formidable sprinters.

Let's have a look at Marko Kump's palmarès.

9th, 2010 Giro del Friuli
4th, Stage 1, 2010 Settimana Coppi e Bartali
1st, Stage 4, 2010 Settimana Coppi e Bartali
2nd, Stage 1, 2010 Circuit de la Sarthe
1st, Stage 2, 2010 Circuit de la Sarthe
1st, Junior Ronde van Vlaanderen 2010
2nd, Stage 1, 2010 Tour de Slovénie
4th, Stage 4, 2010 Tour de Slovénie
5th, 2009 Giro della Costa Etruschi
2nd, Stage 1, 2009 Settimana Coppi e Bartali
1st, Stage 4, 2009 Tour de Slovénie
4th, Stage 2, 2009 Tour de l'Avenir
1st, Stage 3, 2009 Tour de l'Avenir
4th, Stage 4, 2009 Tour de l'Avenir
6th, 2009 U23 Worlds RR.

Bearing in mind he's barely turned 22 and has been racing for a Slovenian domestic team, that's a pretty good haul. In fact his CQ points ranking for 2009 is better than Kristoff's, and by a considerable margain (196 to 131). Kristoff is a year older and has been in bigger races.

Does this mean Kump is a better rider than Kristoff? Probably not, at least not right now.

But this is the thing. It's not you, it's something we all do. You will be prepared to look up the results and abilities of Kristoff, because BMC signed him. You want to know what he's good at. You don't care about Kump signing for Geox, so you don't look up his earlier results. I'm the same. I could tell you all about the palmarès of the lowly domestiques on Movistar and Euskaltel. Same goes for scenes. From what you say of Blanco, it's clear you don't pay much mind to the domestic scenes of Portugal and Spain; I couldn't tell you more than the absolute bare basics about Brétagne-Schuller or Roubaix-Lille Métropole, but I can tell you all about Barbot-Efapel and LA-Paredes Rota dos Móveis. And I can tell you right now that David Blanco is a better climber and TTer than Ivan Santaromita or Johan Tschopp. Easily. Gianetti even trumped him as a potential third card for the GTs. I think that's going a bit too far, but he's at least as good as Rubén Plaza, who just came 12th in the Tour. I don't see Santaromita or Tschopp being even close to that level yet.

- Cunego ain't no stage racer anymore.

Respectfully disagree. He's not a LONG stage racer anymore, definitely not, but he's capable over a shorter stage race. And he was 11th in the Giro despite missing the infamous break and 4th to Zoncolán. He was 6th in the '09 Tour de Suisse, 5th in the '09 Vuelta al País Vasco, 1st in the '09 Settimana Coppi e Bartali (Evans was in his usual spot of 2nd for the record), 4th in the '08 Tour de Suisse, 4th in the '08 País Vasco... depending on the calendar he picks he can be pretty useful still.

Anyway, i kinda agree, though don't just put it all on me about the BMC hate. That is wrong. If I cause strong counter opinion or over hype riders then posters surely have the brain capacity to argue with out becoming too strong about the topic. This is just an opinion.

The BMC thing is mostly to do with riling you or with tearing down your overly fanboyish statements. On other subjects, it's about other posters. If you didn't get so defensive (or weren't so keen to dish it out to other teams) then you wouldn't face half as much of it. Evans is not the best rider in the world, but he's right up near the top end of the list. BMC are not the best team in the world, and none of their riders make them into a USPS-like superteam. They're a ProTour team, and a middling one at that. There are better teams out there, and there are worse ones.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

To be fair, I think in discussing with ACF, some people hype the Volta Portugal a little bit. Hard racing isn't the same as top racing. The same reason in the preseason riders want flat races like TDU, Qatar etc Simoni and Cunego are not so stupid they are going to kill themself for a top5 in Portugal.

Agreed. But if you listen to what Simoni said about the race you know that winning that race repeatedly is going to be a tough endeavour, even if the big names that roll into town won't be aiming for it.

I don't think them ending under Sinkewitz proving anything. Even so, Tondo won the race a few years back does not mean that much. Contador won Algarve, does that mean it is as hard as the Tour which he also won?

No, of course not, that would be stupid. But nobody, not even the Portuguese, focus their season around the Volta ao Algarve. At the Volta a Portugal, all of the national teams are peaking. All of them. It's like a parochial version of the Giro - all these national teams that train all year for this tend to put off top level outsiders from coming because it's too tough to ride for that long in that weather when you know you'll get nothing from it since the national riders will crush you. And Sinkewitz this year didn't have a team until the end of May, and planned things around riding the Volta as the biggest race he could target. Tondó won the race riding for a team who planned the whole year around having one of their biggest riders in peak form for the Volta.

I do not say it is easy racing in Portugal, but these arguments are not that convincing. And besides, people state the Portugal racing scene is very self-centered. Still, it's surprising allmost no one seems to brake out this circle to compete at an international toplevel...

I already covered that. The reasons are:
1) Salaries in Portuguese cycling compared to their domestic Spanish equivalents are very good, which means that unless you have a contract for a top level team, it's not worth it
2) Portuguese cycling has a very negative reputation for being full of doping, and for harbouring Puerto's exiles. This means that very talented riders are often doomed to stay in the scene because talent scouts don't look that way, team bosses aren't willing to take the risk on the riders, and so on. Even so, look at the quality of a rider like Machado. He raced all year to peak at the Volta and managed 7th. Sure, he's still young and improving, but he hardly failed at the step up, did he! Many Portuguese talents would love to get out, but simply can't, unless they're regarded as something extraordinary at a young age.

David Blanco is a very good cyclist. However, he's damaged goods because of Puerto. It's only now that a lot of those exiles are being accepted back to bigger teams - Plaza last year, and now Blanco and Bernabéu this year. Blanco has a much better palmarès than most of BMC's backup squad, and shows evidence of good recovery. On the flip side, he's 35, and has had the luxury of only having one top level race to peak for for the last few years.

Also, van Avermaet is maybe not the best sprinter, but still 5th at this worlds (after attacking himself and working for Gilbert). Won the pointsjersey at the Vuelta (08?). Very strong guy, who can ride finals after 260k. I'm highly interested what he can do in the classics now he doesn't have to work for Gilbert...[/QUOTE]

 

[auscyclefan94]

OK, I avoided wading in first time I saw this, but...........
I think Cunego is still a more than useful stage racer.
For instance, were he to target Paris-Nice, which he never has, it would be right up his alley. Could win it, easily.

So, I would assume you mean he's no GT rider anymore.
Very true, in terms of the GC, but he's still more than handy at grabbing stage wins.

Now, to my mind, Cunego is very much the sort of rider BMC should be looking to sign. Get rid of Quinziato and one of their other cobbles wannabees. The team is top heavy in this dept.
Cunego could have added another dimension to their hilly classics campaign, rode the Giro as a recognised team leader and offered far better mountain support to Cadel, at the Tour.

He would have been worth any 3 of the riders they have signed.

Probably should of been more specific there. I find it funny that you say BMC are top heavy in cobbled classics departments and then many posters in here say they are full of "has been's".

 

[Christian]

I think Cunego is still a more than useful stage racer.
For instance, were he to target Paris-Nice, which he never has, it would be right up his alley. Could win it, easily.

I agree that he could win it, but not easily, and only under the condition that Contador does not participate. That's why I hope his investigation will drag on a little bit, so we can at least have an exciting Paris-Nice.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Let's have a look at Marko Kump's palmarès.

9th, 2010 Giro del Friuli
4th, Stage 1, 2010 Settimana Coppi e Bartali
1st, Stage 4, 2010 Settimana Coppi e Bartali
2nd, Stage 1, 2010 Circuit de la Sarthe
1st, Stage 2, 2010 Circuit de la Sarthe
1st, Junior Ronde van Vlaanderen 2010
2nd, Stage 1, 2010 Tour de Slovénie
4th, Stage 4, 2010 Tour de Slovénie
5th, 2009 Giro della Costa Etruschi
2nd, Stage 1, 2009 Settimana Coppi e Bartali
1st, Stage 4, 2009 Tour de Slovénie
4th, Stage 2, 2009 Tour de l'Avenir
1st, Stage 3, 2009 Tour de l'Avenir
4th, Stage 4, 2009 Tour de l'Avenir
6th, 2009 U23 Worlds RR.

Bearing in mind he's barely turned 22 and has been racing for a Slovenian domestic team, that's a pretty good haul. In fact his CQ points ranking for 2009 is better than Kristoff's, and by a considerable margain (196 to 131). Kristoff is a year older and has been in bigger races.

Does this mean Kump is a better rider than Kristoff? Probably not, at least not right now.

But this is the thing. It's not you, it's something we all do. You will be prepared to look up the results and abilities of Kristoff, because BMC signed him. You want to know what he's good at. You don't care about Kump signing for Geox, so you don't look up his earlier results. I'm the same. I could tell you all about the palmarès of the lowly domestiques on Movistar and Euskaltel. Same goes for scenes. From what you say of Blanco, it's clear you don't pay much mind to the domestic scenes of Portugal and Spain; I couldn't tell you more than the absolute bare basics about Brétagne-Schuller or Roubaix-Lille Métropole, but I can tell you all about Barbot-Efapel and LA-Paredes Rota dos Móveis. And I can tell you right now that David Blanco is a better climber and TTer than Ivan Santaromita or Johan Tschopp. Easily. Gianetti even trumped him as a potential third card for the GTs. I think that's going a bit too far, but he's at least as good as Rubén Plaza, who just came 12th in the Tour. I don't see Santaromita or Tschopp being even close to that level yet.

Probably a fair statement. Marko Kump does look quite promising but again you also have to question the competition they are against in races

Kristoff in 2010
Schelderprijs GC 10th

Tour of California Stage 1 3rd
Stage 4 6th

Philadelphia Int. Cycling Championshiphs GC 3rd

Tour de Wallonie Stage 3 4th
Stage 5 9th

Tour de Pologne Stage 1 7th
Stage 2 8th
Stage 3 10th
Stage 7 6th
Tour du Poitou-Charentes Stage 1 9th
Stage 2 6th
Stage 3 7th
GP Jef Scherens GC 8th
Memorial Rik Van Steenbergen GC 10th
Paris-Brussels GC 9th
GP de Fourmies GC 5th
Kampioenschap van Vlaanderen GC 7th


With an actual leadout for Kristoff he probably would have won some of those races. Kristoff raced a bit too much last year as well.

I guess it will be good to see how Kump goes next season in the big time. He may be in a similar position next year to Kristoff this year as Geox don't really have many sprinters/leadout guys for him.

Obviously Blanco has good pedigree, but has not had opportunities in the past. Though santoromita is kind of like santambrogio. They ride well in the hilly classics and have a decent kick on them. Handy in the mountains also.

The BMC thing is mostly to do with riling you or with tearing down your overly fanboyish statements. On other subjects, it's about other posters. If you didn't get so defensive (or weren't so keen to dish it out to other teams) then you wouldn't face half as much of it. Evans is not the best rider in the world, but he's right up near the top end of the list. BMC are not the best team in the world, and none of their riders make them into a USPS-like superteam. They're a ProTour team, and a middling one at that. There are better teams out there, and there are worse ones.

Fair comment. imho, BMC have the better depth because of their superior classics squad, that's not to say Geox are not a good squad either.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, I'd say that looking at the respective lists, there isn't much difference.
Kritsoff may have a couple of more "senior" races in there, but Kump is a fair bit younger.
Add in the fact that Kump has got a number of first places, including an individual stage of the Coppi e Bartali, which is the race Ivan Sataromita takes all his "potential" hype from...........

As for what might have been, with less races, leadout trains etc, that dog just doesn't come out of the kennel, never mind hunt.

Worth having a look at CQ, just to see how respective riders faired, last year.
It's an eye opener.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Nah. For me Schleck Samu and Basso are all in front of Menchov, when one considers the route.

Again you are massively overrating Fränk Schleck as a climber. Thought the Vuelta would open up your eyes. Clearly it didn't. Oh well. Keep believing.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Well, I'd say that looking at the respective lists, there isn't much difference.
Kritsoff may have a couple of more "senior" races in there, but Kump is a fair bit younger.
Add in the fact that Kump has got a number of first places, including an individual stage of the Coppi e Bartali, which is the race Ivan Sataromita takes all his "potential" hype from...........

As for what might have been, with less races, leadout trains etc, that dog just doesn't come out of the kennel, never mind hunt.

Worth having a look at CQ, just to see how respective riders faired, last year.
It's an eye opener.

Potential hype? I have hardly hyped Santaromita up. Anyway, they guy came 2nd in the italian nats and won coppi bartali. That is all i have really said.

 

[profff]

ivan santaromita is a good rider and a nice guy, too.
great season last year, won coppi and bartali, second at nationals, helped a lot sagan in tour of california, was selected for vuelta espana
liquigas did not select him for giro and tour, main targets of the season for the team.
he is better than all the riders bmc brought last year to the giro ( bookwalker included), so i think he is a good signing for the swiss team.
he will make more money at bmc, he is very happy about that.
imho, santambrogio is stronger than him.
hivan will be a good helper, but he cannot change the level of bmc team.
i cannot expect him to change his level just because he wears a bmc jersey ( he is born in 84, this is is forth year as pro...)

AFC, he ideserves to be a pro,, but there is not very much to hype,,,,,

 

[The Hitch]

Again you are massively overrating Fränk Schleck as a climber. Thought the Vuelta would open up your eyes. Clearly it didn't. Oh well. Keep believing.

If this is a joke, its not one of your best Dekker T

Obviously Andy Schleck. If i meant Frank i would have said Frank.

Credit for taking the **** out of your vuelta performance though Its admirable to be able to laugh at yourself now and again.

 

[Ferminal]

If this is a joke, its not one of your best Dekker T

Obviously Andy Schleck. If i meant Frank i would have said Frank.

Credit for taking the **** out of your vuelta performance though Its admirable to be able to laugh at yourself now and again.

lol I read DT's post then yours that he had quoted.

I laughed Saw it was a joke immediately.

 

[The Hitch]

lol I read DT's post then yours that he had quoted.

I laughed Saw it was a joke immediately.

Whats the joke

Im a bit slow recently. Didnt even get the bit about Rousseau.

 

[Ferminal]

Well it seems he deliberately said Frank even though it's obvious you were talking of Andy.

 

[IlCobraFan]

indeed they are, but with only 4 wild cards up for grabs, and Farnese-Vini have laready been guaranteed an invite, that leaves only 3. Androni, Acqua Sapone and Colnago must all fancy their cahnces ahead of Geox, especially as their teams will be made up predominately of Italian riders (Sella, Garzelli, Pozzovivo).

I think Geox best hope may be if Zomegnan decides to go against the grain and not invite one of the PT teams, such as Radioshack or Euskaltel?

I'd rather have Garzelli, Napolitano and Baby Giro winner Carlos Betancourt than CSF-Colnago's Pozzovivo and Modolo. I think the Italian fans share same opinion.

GEOX is guaranteed considering their Italian sponsor and the presence of Menchov and Sastre.

I feared the hard route would scare international stars away but so far it looks okay with Kreuziger, Sastre, Nibali, Menchov, Riccò and Anton

 

[theyoungest]

I'd rather have Garzelli, Napolitano and Baby Giro winner Carlos Betancourt than CSF-Colnago's Pozzovivo and Modolo. I think the Italian fans share same opinion.

GEOX is guaranteed considering their Italian sponsor and the presence of Menchov and Sastre.

I feared the hard route would scare international stars away but so far it looks okay with Kreuziger, Sastre, Nibali, Menchov, Riccò and Anton

Why would you prefer Garzelli to Pozzovivo? Or Napolitano to Modolo? Betancourt could be interesting, but it's not like the winner of the Baby Giro will immediately leave a big mark on the real Giro (look at Sarmiento this year) and he's not Italian.

 

[profff]

betancourt is a much more talented climber than sarmiento. no match.

csf colnago has strong cards to play: 1)the very good relationships between the reverberi and the rcs 2) colnago is very important in italian cycling and has a very good relationship with rcs 3) pozzovivo is very strong climber and has he is very appreciated among italian suiveurs, 4) last year the reverberi boys performed very well in the giro, despite the fact that pozzovivo had to withstand because of a fall in the first stages in holland

a&s has a stronger and more interesting team imho, but maybe has few cards to play: 1) garzelli, a former giro winner, which has honoured the race last year and two years ago,2)garzelli has a lot of tifosi 3)they ave a stronger roster.

maybe the first results of the season will be imprtant
maybe, doping problems of some team will help the choice

i do not believe that di luca will be allowed to run the giro this year
zome loked very angry with him and i do not think that he will change his habits towards the people sanctioned for doping: they have to loose two editions of giro

 

[theyoungest]

betancourt is a much more talented climber than sarmiento. no match.

Oh, I'm sure he is, but I still don't think that Betancourt would pose a greater GC threat than Pozzovivo.

 

[profff]

Oh, I'm sure he is, but I still don't think that Betancourt would pose a greater GC threat than Pozzovivo.

pozzovivo is very strong in the mountain and if everything will rule ok for him in the flat stages he could pose a serious GC threat
i just wanted to outline that betancourt looks stronger than sarmiento, much stronger. he can do well at the giro, he just has to show up and start building a career. witout looking to gc.
anyway remember what rujano was able to do in the savoldelli second giro win....
this will be great for cycling.
betancour has to show the route to henao and the other young colombian guns that they can do a lot on the european scene.
the colombians could do in cycling what runner from kenia have done in long distance running..
i want the times of lucho herrera back.
i am sick of mountain stages with more than a col in which the gt guys just attack in the last 2km of the last climb...the colombians have a different way of running than the europeans
in giro bio in the montegrappa stage betancur and his colombian friends fired the race from the beginning and simply destroyed best italian u23 climber locatelli on the montegrappa slopes.

 

[IlCobraFan]

Why would you prefer Garzelli to Pozzovivo? Or Napolitano to Modolo? Betancourt could be interesting, but it's not like the winner of the Baby Giro will immediately leave a big mark on the real Giro (look at Sarmiento this year) and he's not Italian.

Why I prefer Garzelli to Pozzovivo? Garzelli is an animator and always to try to do the impossible and it's enjoyable to watch. Anyway, let's hope Zomegnan ignores the UCI WorldTour rules and denies the ProTeams sending B-squads. The problem with that is our friend Pat McQuaid. I'm sure he will show his power and grant Tour of California WorldTour status in personal revenge.

 

[tgsgirl]

With none of the real big sprinters going to the giro I think it is a great opportunity for Kristoff to pick up a stage or two.I'd imagine this would be the team

Kristoff
Wyss
Kohler
Phinney
Murphy
Santaromita
Quinziato
Beyer
Tschopp

I know I'm late to the party, but that is one sad Giro team.

you overrate Kristoff so much I think I might begin to hate him.

Already there.