Well done with the pro teams

[hrotha]

Never have said that... Dom't make incorrect accusations without correct evidence.

BMC have kristoff, van avermaet and quinziato

Geox have...ummmmmm....ummmmm....ummmmm

Being fast is not the same as being a sprinter. Van Avermaet isn't a pure sprinter, Kristoff sucks right now (he might become good, but right now the most he can aim at is a top 10 in some GT stages), and I reckon the last time Quinziato contested a mass sprint must have been as a junior or something. In light of that, not having lame sprinters and focusing your energies on other fields where you can actually contend (like stage races in the case of Geox) is a perfectly valid choice. And even then, if we're going to rate unproven fast riders as strong sprinters, why not rate Walker, Kump and Ratto?

 

[Moondance]

Geox would only possibly struggle to get the Giro invite wouldn't they?

Well, ASO, RCS and Unipublic will all want to give domestically based teams some starts, especially the ASO with only one French team guaranteed a start... Geox might still get into all three, who knows, but I'm sure they're not feeling good about it.

 

[adamski101]

To get away from the BMC Holy War a bit, Biciciclismo has a story this morning about the UCI preparing to announce a deal that gives all 18 World Tour teams guaranteed starts in all three GTs, over and above what McQuaid has said already.

If this is so, Geox will really have to pass through the eye of the needle to get GT starts, and a team like Pegasus will probably miss out entirely.

They are a certainity for Vuelta and I imigine they will be for the Tour, esepcially with Sastre and Menchov in the line up. Giro is the only one that is a bit questionable, but wouldn't bet against them getting an invite.

 

[Parrulo]

It's not difficult to use capital letters at the beginning of each sentence either!

Point being you shouldn't need to resort to questioning people's typing in order to invalidate their argument.



Geox would only possibly struggle to get the Giro invite wouldn't they?

reading the posts and not just looking at them is also necessary.

"learn how to type first." <- see that little dot. it means that the next sentence has nothing to do with it, or i would have used a coma. the next part just means lets move on to the argument. but this is a pointless discussion.

 

[Barrus]

Perhaps a stupid question, but I'm having a bit of a brainfart. If all the 18 teams are allowed in each of the GTs, how many wildcards would there still be available for other tea,s.

Also what are the chances that Zomegnan has accepted the deal, yet will not allow all 18 teams to start, especially if they will show up with inferior squads?

 

[pugdog]

They are a certainity for Vuelta and I imigine they will be for the Tour, esepcially with Sastre and Menchov in the line up. Giro is the only one that is a bit questionable, but wouldn't bet against them getting an invite.

I thought Geox was an Italian company?

 

[ingsve]

Perhaps a stupid question, but I'm having a bit of a brainfart. If all the 18 teams are allowed in each of the GTs, how many wildcards would there still be available for other tea,s.

Also what are the chances that Zomegnan has accepted the deal, yet will not allow all 18 teams to start, especially if they will show up with inferior squads?

That depends on how many teams the organizers want to invite in total. It's usually between 20 and 22. In the past few years it has gone towards always being 22 since so many teams are guaranteed places. With 22 teams there would be 4 wild cards per GT.

 

[adamski101]

I thought Geox was an Italian company?

indeed they are, but with only 4 wild cards up for grabs, and Farnese-Vini have laready been guaranteed an invite, that leaves only 3. Androni, Acqua Sapone and Colnago must all fancy their cahnces ahead of Geox, especially as their teams will be made up predominately of Italian riders (Sella, Garzelli, Pozzovivo).

I think Geox best hope may be if Zomegnan decides to go against the grain and not invite one of the PT teams, such as Radioshack or Euskaltel?

 

[Barrus]

That depends on how many teams the organizers want to invite in total. It's usually between 20 and 22. In the past few years it has gone towards always being 22 since so many teams are guaranteed places. With 22 teams there would be 4 wild cards per GT.

Which would mean in most cases:
At least 3 smallish Italian teams in the Giro, at least Farnese (due to Visconti) and Androni (being the 2010 Italian champion), with probably either De Rosa, Aqua et Sapone, or Colnago. Geox will be in really tough water than.

At least 3 French invites in the Tour, could even be 4, with only 1 being in the protour and all. Geox again will have a tough time

In the Vuelta, at least 2 smallish Spanish teams, probably Cofidis (with three consecutive KoM wins I would presume they would be invited). Geox will probably have the least trouble getting into this one, especially if Sastre will ride it

@ Adamski, if Euskaltel sends a reasonable squad, no way Zomegnan will go against them, if there is one team that ensures spectacle in GTs it is Euskaltel

 

[janraaskalt]

Which would mean in most cases:
At least 3 smallish Italian teams in the Giro, at least Farnese (due to Visconti) and Androni (being the 2010 Italian champion), with probably either De Rosa, Aqua et Sapone, or Colnago. Geox will be in really tough water than.

De Rosa is in no way strong enough to participate in a Grand Tour like the Giro.

There are 5 serious contenders for 4 wildcards, if the UCI gets what it wants. I doubt that Zomegnan will allow any of those 5 not to participate in the Giro.

 

[Arnout]

indeed they are, but with only 4 wild cards up for grabs, and Farnese-Vini have laready been guaranteed an invite, that leaves only 3. Androni, Acqua Sapone and Colnago must all fancy their cahnces ahead of Geox, especially as their teams will be made up predominately of Italian riders (Sella, Garzelli, Pozzovivo).

I think Geox best hope may be if Zomegnan decides to go against the grain and not invite one of the PT teams, such as Radioshack or Euskaltel?

Actually Euskaltel got invited to the Giro in 2008 and 2009 as well, but because they felt they couldn't send a reasonable squad they decided to give their place to another team, after consultation with the RCS. They did participate in all other races organized by the RCS.

This year they're planning on sending Anton and Nieve at least, so they probably not be the team that sends a B-squad to the Giro.

 

[Barrus]

De Rosa is in no way strong enough to participate in a Grand Tour like the Giro.

There are 5 serious contenders for 4 wildcards, if the UCI gets what it wants. I doubt that Zomegnan will allow any of those 5 not to participate in the Giro.

Well, the thing is that De Rosa was second in the Italian championships, nearly first, so they almost had an automatic invite, perhaps this would be taken into consideration

 

[adamski101]

Which would mean in most cases:
At least 3 smallish Italian teams in the Giro, at least Farnese (due to Visconti) and Androni (being the 2010 Italian champion), with probably either De Rosa, Aqua et Sapone, or Colnago. Geox will be in really tough water than.

At least 3 French invites in the Tour, could even be 4, with only 1 being in the protour and all. Geox again will have a tough time

In the Vuelta, at least 2 smallish Spanish teams, probably Cofidis (with three consecutive KoM wins I would presume they would be invited). Geox will probably have the least trouble getting into this one, especially if Sastre will ride it

@ Adamski, if Euskaltel sends a reasonable squad, no way Zomegnan will go against them, if there is one team that ensures spectacle in GTs it is Euskaltel

I agree with you about Euskaltel, i was just using them as an example as they have willingly missed the Giro in past years. I think more likely Radioshack or maybe AG2R as their focus will be entirely on the Tour.

 

[Barrus]

I agree with you about Euskaltel, i was just using them as an example as they have willingly missed the Giro in past years. I think more likely Radioshack or maybe AG2R as their focus will be entirely on the Tour.

What I've read: Gadret will be the leader at the Giro, so AG2R could have a reasonable team at the Giro

 

[ingsve]

Which would mean in most cases:
At least 3 smallish Italian teams in the Giro, at least Farnese (due to Visconti) and Androni (being the 2010 Italian champion), with probably either De Rosa, Aqua et Sapone, or Colnago. Geox will be in really tough water than.

At least 3 French invites in the Tour, could even be 4, with only 1 being in the protour and all. Geox again will have a tough time

In the Vuelta, at least 2 smallish Spanish teams, probably Cofidis (with three consecutive KoM wins I would presume they would be invited). Geox will probably have the least trouble getting into this one, especially if Sastre will ride it

@ Adamski, if Euskaltel sends a reasonable squad, no way Zomegnan will go against them, if there is one team that ensures spectacle in GTs it is Euskaltel

Geox won't have any problems getting invites to any GT they send at least Menchov to and I reccon even sending Sastre with good help would be enough depending on the race.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, ASO, RCS and Unipublic will all want to give domestically based teams some starts, especially the ASO with only one French team guaranteed a start... Geox might still get into all three, who knows, but I'm sure they're not feeling good about it.

I am not at all confident that Geox will make the GTs, despite the confidence, here.
I have a nagging feeling Geox is about to become a pawn in another UCI v The GT bosses, tug-of-war. Menchov and Sastre missing would carry some impact, unlike some minor team exclusion.

I wouldn't be surprised to see 22 teams at the Giro, with 4 wildcards going to Italian squads. Androni's treatment is cause enough.
21 teams to the Tour, with FDJ, Cofidis and Eurocar taking the spots. No explanation necessary.
Maybe the Vuelta door will remain open.

 

[The Hitch]

hardly bad competition. ofc the mighty bmc would just destroy them. prolly by **** raping all of the riders overnight so they couldn't sit on the saddle the following day.

Wow, Blanco won 4 tours of portugal? Against jack**** of competition.....

If I am an ignorant little kid then you are an ignorant little cretin.

i only hope libertine sees this as he can express himself much better then i can. if you read what he says your opinion might change. then again you clearly listen to no1 so. . .

I want to see this too. Pm him

Actually Euskaltel got invited to the Giro in 2008 and 2009 as well, but because they felt they couldn't send a reasonable squad they decided to give their place to another team, after consultation with the RCS. They did participate in all other races organized by the RCS.

This year they're planning on sending Anton and Nieve at least, so they probably not be the team that sends a B-squad to the Giro.

Didnt Anton back out, saying he isnt going to ride the giro. We were all so disapointed as i remember.

 

[Arnout]

I want to see this too. Pm him


Didnt Anton back out, saying he isnt going to ride the giro. We were all so disapointed as i remember.

No Anton always said he would love to ride the Giro, but until now Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano was saying that the Giro didn't really fit in their schedule.

 

[janraaskalt]

Well, the thing is that De Rosa was second in the Italian championships, nearly first, so they almost had an automatic invite, perhaps this would be taken into consideration

Assuming you mean Flaminia, most of the riders who obtained points have left the team (Ricco', Colli, G. Caruso) or are suspended (Rossi). The new De Rosa-Ceramica Flaminia has not much to do with the team finishing 2nd in that championship.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

ACF, christ.

You need to check out the Volta a Portugal. It's a damn hard race. There are some damn good riders who do it. A lot of them ride in Portugal because the money is better than Spanish domestic racing, others because they were untouchable because of Puerto. The reputation of Portuguese cycling means that a lot of riders who are easily good enough to get out (cf the post earlier of André Cardoso) won't be looked at by the big teams. Iván Santaromita's biggest win is the Settimana Coppi e Bartali. Very good, but the main reason he won it was that Liquigas did a better TTT than Miche (he and Niemiec fought out the decisive break). Coppi e Bartali is just one of several buildup races for the Giro. The Volta a Portugal is the absolute pinnacle of the season for that scene, and there are lots of talented riders there. Blanco was so dominant this year that I was annoyed. He won both major MTFs (Senhora da Graça and Torre), and placed 2nd in the long ITT.

It's like the TDU argument all over again - the TDU has bigger names than the Volta, but it's a joke to consider it a tougher race. You seem to be too easily blinkered by presence of big names. Think of it as similar to the Giro, yea? The Italian teams, they plan out all year for that. So when the big guns roll into town, some of them aren't solely focused on the Giro because of other goals, and they get blown out. The Volta is similar but at a slightly lower level; Gilberto Simoni said he wouldn't come back, after being mercilessly pillaged by the domestic riders who fight all year for the Volta. 11 days of riding around in searing heat up mountains is not to be taken lightly, and the difficulty is a large reason why a lot of big names don't show up.

For reference, another former Volta a Portugal winner just had his first real year at the top level. He showed just what the standard of that race is. His name? Xavier Tondó. Hopefully I don't have to list what HE did in 2010, but needless to say it's bigger than most of the people who'll be slaving for Evans.

You need to put down the rose-coloured spectacles, and stop being so harsh on people who aren't in BMC unless you're prepared to take it. BMC have improved and they have some good riders. But you seem to artificially inflate their quality, as if they somehow absorb awesomeness from being around Evans. No amount of argument is going to persuade us that Tschopp is a better climber than Blanco after Tschopp, as a journeyman, picked up a brilliant Giro stage, while Blanco won one of the toughest races in the world four times, holding on and beating people who train all year for the race in the high mountains. No amount of argument is going to persuade us that Kristoff is better than Duarte, notwithstanding that they're not comparable in the slightest.

You hold such obvious double standards it makes you an easy target.

 

[theyoungest]

ACF, christ.

You need to check out the Volta a Portugal. It's a damn hard race. There are some damn good riders who do it. A lot of them ride in Portugal because the money is better than Spanish domestic racing, others because they were untouchable because of Puerto. The reputation of Portuguese cycling means that a lot of riders who are easily good enough to get out (cf the post earlier of André Cardoso) won't be looked at by the big teams. Iván Santaromita's biggest win is the Settimana Coppi e Bartali. Very good, but the main reason he won it was that Liquigas did a better TTT than Miche (he and Niemiec fought out the decisive break). Coppi e Bartali is just one of several buildup races for the Giro. The Volta a Portugal is the absolute pinnacle of the season for that scene, and there are lots of talented riders there. Blanco was so dominant this year that I was annoyed. He won both major MTFs (Senhora da Graça and Torre), and placed 2nd in the long ITT.

It's like the TDU argument all over again - the TDU has bigger names than the Volta, but it's a joke to consider it a tougher race. You seem to be too easily blinkered by presence of big names. Think of it as similar to the Giro, yea? The Italian teams, they plan out all year for that. So when the big guns roll into town, some of them aren't solely focused on the Giro because of other goals, and they get blown out. The Volta is similar but at a slightly lower level; Gilberto Simoni said he wouldn't come back, after being mercilessly pillaged by the domestic riders who fight all year for the Volta. 11 days of riding around in searing heat up mountains is not to be taken lightly, and the difficulty is a large reason why a lot of big names don't show up.

For reference, another former Volta a Portugal winner just had his first real year at the top level. He showed just what the standard of that race is. His name? Xavier Tondó. Hopefully I don't have to list what HE did in 2010, but needless to say it's bigger than most of the people who'll be slaving for Evans.

You need to put down the rose-coloured spectacles, and stop being so harsh on people who aren't in BMC unless you're prepared to take it. BMC have improved and they have some good riders. But you seem to artificially inflate their quality, as if they somehow absorb awesomeness from being around Evans. No amount of argument is going to persuade us that Tschopp is a better climber than Blanco after Tschopp, as a journeyman, picked up a brilliant Giro stage, while Blanco won one of the toughest races in the world four times, holding on and beating people who train all year for the race in the high mountains. No amount of argument is going to persuade us that Kristoff is better than Duarte, notwithstanding that they're not comparable in the slightest.

You hold such obvious double standards it makes you an easy target.

Maybe rather than Tondo you could refer to Pardilla and Sinkewitz, who got 3d and 4th in the Volta a Portugal this year, and did well in other smaller races, where the occasional BMC rider might also have appeared (and, of course, didn't figure in the results, because that's how we know them).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Maybe rather than Tondo you could refer to Pardilla and Sinkewitz, who got 3d and 4th in the Volta a Portugal this year, and did well in other smaller races, where the occasional BMC rider might also have appeared (and, of course, didn't figure in the results, because that's how we know them).

Tondó was chosen because he won the 2007 Volta a Portugal, and his performances when let off the leash this year indicate the kind of racing standard required to win the Volta; he wasn't a dominating champion, certainly not as much as Blanco.

 

[theyoungest]

Tondó was chosen because he won the 2007 Volta a Portugal, and his performances when let off the leash this year indicate the kind of racing standard required to win the Volta; he wasn't a dominating champion, certainly not as much as Blanco.

I know, but that was three years ago. He has probably improved since then (which, of course, only strengthens your argument). With Pardilla and Sinkewitz, we can more or less say what level they're on in the international field at the moment.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Rather than trying to repair the rubbishing of Blanco and the Volta, let's look at the much vaunted Jo Tschopp's palmares.
Other than his Giro stage win, he has one other individual career race win.
It being......stage 4 of the Tropicale Amissa Bongo.(the what?)

Oh and that's one more individual win than Iván Santaromita has had, so far in his career.

Trying to rationalise this debate with ACF is just pointless.
Suffice to say, I think both of these BMC riders are better than their palmares suggest. However, we had this same debate last year and I think BMC's results will be much the same, come 2011.

 

[The Hitch]

Rather than trying to repair the rubbishing of Blanco and the Volta, let's look at the much vaunted Jo Tschopp's palmares.
Other than his Giro stage win, he has one other individual career race win.
It being......stage 4 of the Tropicale Amissa Bongo.(the what?)

Oh and that's one more individual win than Iván Santaromita has had, so far in his career.

Trying to rationalise this debate with ACF is just pointless.
Suffice to say, I think both of these BMC riders are better than their palmares suggest. However, we had this same debate last year and I think BMC's results will be much the same, come 2011.

I think ACF has simply looked at the idea that Geox have no classics guys and decided that this is a strategically safe place to make a stand.

From there he can keep calling BMC a team for classics and gts hence better.

After that come one or 2 unfair comments about the Volta and about bmc being better than the Basques

Personally though i think Geox's strenght in gts will more than make up for the deficit they have to BMC in classics, whos only real hope at a monument is Cuddles in liege.
Its not like BMC signed Cancellara.

Incidentally though i think Geox could do ok at Ardennes if they were invited and cared. Surely Menchov could compete, no?