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What do we know... Armstrong

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Oct 6, 2009
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Realist said:
Is there a copy of a soundfile somewhere? I could have a go at it filtering it. I saw reference to this in the dep of Armstrong at SCA but I assumed it wasn't publicly available.

You can probably find a link to it here. That site has links to all kinds of stuff.
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Handle bar said:
Realist is confused. This is a fraud case, not a doping case. All of the GC guys for the last 20 years have doped. In fact many did before that - it was a part of the sport.

Weird. I don't think I said anything about the Novitzky investigation specifically. I was interested in the evidence that is publically available (or at least accessible) regarding doping in top level cyclists, in this context, because he is the only one who has continued to deny it, against Armstrong. Turns out I was confused though because we can only discuss things in one dimension on this forum.
 
May 26, 2010
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Realist said:
Weird. I don't think I said anything about the Novitzky investigation specifically. I was interested in the evidence that is publically available (or at least accessible) regarding doping in top level cyclists, in this context, because he is the only one who has continued to deny it, against Armstrong. Turns out I was confused though because we can only discuss things in one dimension on this forum.

Ignore this guy. Infamous troll on here banned over 50 times i believe. Dont quote him either.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

Wikipedia has a great page that outlines the history of doping cases in cycling. I suggest everyone who cares about the future of the sport read it over.

In short, there are about a half-dozen former team members of Postal / Disco who tested positive shortly after leaving the team. They include Heras, Beltran, Landis, and Hamilton.

There are many rivals for the Postal / Disco squads that have tested positive or been sanctioned due to involvement in Operation Puerto. They include Ullrich, Basso, Pantani, Beloki, and Mayo.

Others who have confessed to doping but "got away with it" include former Postal / Disco riders Andreau and S****.

The Wikipedia link makes for some great reading. One thing that stands out for me is that Theunisse tested positive in the 80's and was given a ten-minute time penalty in the TdF, but he was allowed to continue. This sport has seen a lot of changes since then.

Another telling episode was the "Festina Affair". The team car was exposed to have a pharmacy inside of it. Festina was kicked out of the TdF, wholesale. The riders from the other teams staged a protest to the punishment of the Festina squad. Telling bahavior of acceptance of the use of pharmaceuticals in cycling.

One of the interesting portions of the Wikipedia page is that a race "rule book" from the TdF to the riders stated that "drugs would not be provided by the organizers". In other words, you have to bring your own, guys.

Previously, I though Operation Puerto would be the bomb needed to clean up cycling. I now think that the federal investigation against Postal might be that bomb. When the consequences of doping change form a ten-minute penalty to a two-year ban and then to a risk of incarceration for a federal crime of fraud/perjury, change is immenent.

I hope the best for cycling and fair sport in general.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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Clearing it up a bit...

The excerpt from the rule book was from the 1930's.

Other TdF rivals that have been sanctioned include Rasmussen and Vino.

The other admitted doper form Postal is S****. (no idea why the *'s appeared)

So, in the spirit of the initial thread post, we know that Armstrong was in the company of many riders who were caught for doping after leaving a team he was on. We know that he beat many admitted dopers. We know that he made significant financial contributions to the governing body of cycling. We know that many colleagues have sworn under oath that he was involved in the doping on the Postal / Disco teams. We also know that several of those who have testified are perjurers themslevels. That (as far as I can tell) is what we know.
 
David Suro said:
One of the interesting portions of the Wikipedia page is that a race "rule book" from the TdF to the riders stated that "drugs would not be provided by the organizers". In other words, you have to bring your own, guys.

I think you need to be careful on that one. You are "quoting" from the Wiki article, not the actual rule book referenced (the Wiki excerpt in it's self is a paraphrase) and the footnote simply directs the reader to "Maso, Benji:Zweet van de Goden, Holland". A Google search using those terms just brings up a number of citations back to Wikipedia.

Plus, the term "drugs" may be taken out of context too. Even today, one still goes to a "druggist" to have a prescription filled.

While I wouldn't be completely surprised, it looks sorta fishy.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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Duly noted from both of the previous posters.

Swart was the rider.

Wikipedia is not the best of resources. No formal peer review exists for Wikipedia.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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Realist said:
Can we collate the evidence against Armstrong concisely? I'm sure there are a lot of things missing from my account. Just bullet points, provide references if asked? Would be helpful to have something to summarise what is currently known. Probably not worth going into legal technicalities and bank accounts and suchlike. Can we do technicalities of the case in another thread?

DIRECT EVIDENCE
1. 6 positive tests from the 1999 tour. Mike Ashenden confirms these results are solid and can be relied on. Mike Ashenden: not typically prone to conspiracy theories.

2. Direct testimony of Frankie Andreu that Armstrong took drugs and discussed drugs with his doc (SCA dep)

3. Direct testimony of Betsy Andreu as above (SCA dep)

4. Direct testimony of Michael Anderson that he found an androgen in Armstrong's bathroom (counterclaim)

5. Emma O'Reilly to Walsh that corticosteroid prescription was faked

6. Direct testimony of Floyd Landis that he received drugs, encouragement and instruction in using drugs from Armstrong

7. Hearsay evidence of Lemond and others regarding Stephanie McIlvain's recollection of the conversation the Andreu's testimony regarding hospital bed confession (saying she agreed with the statements, before saying they were false under oath at the trial).

I'm sure I've missed things here? Help out?

INDIRECT/CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE
1. Ex-postal riders turning positive. Too many to list. Someone want to try?

2. Almost all previous competitors in the TdF 1999-2005 admitting to use or turning positive or being involved in Puerto. Unlikely that a non-doped athlete could compete with these people given the typically small margins in elite sport. Again, too many riders to list, someone take a shot?

3. Association with Ferrari

4. Intimidation of Simeoni (watching this live is what almost removed all doubt for me - the 'zip your lips' gesture was practically an admission of guilt).

GENERAL EVIDENCE REGARDING PREVALENCE OF DOPING
1. Analytical positives. There are some.

2. Non-analytical stuff. There are way more. Proving the testing doesn't work. We get into the land of assumptions here... but presumably we don't find all the Puerto's. We know about Ferrari, about the german clinic, about Puerto. But who knew about Puerto before it came out? Noone mentioned it. It was all Ferrari and Conconi. So there's probably more we don't know about.

3. I've heard from some well-published exercise physiologists that because of various things they've found out, they now find it difficult to enjoy watching professional cycling. I've heard from riders who've been exposed to drugs in the early 2000's and quit riding or scaled back their ambitions to the amateur level. I've seen amateurs at regional races I've known to dope (f*wits - I've beaten some of them). Sorry I can't be more specific. Plenty of people have similar stories.

4. Game theory. No, really.

I like this summary but am only guessing at what you are trying to prove. Is this to prove Armstrong doped? or that he (and others) conspired to defraud sponsors? This leaves out significant legal wrangling over each of those topics, which tell me quite a bit about what the disposition of Armstrong is towards each topic.

If you spell out what you are trying to prove, it makes more sense to emphasize particular evidence.

Just a thought.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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slowspoke said:
Hi there,

Long time lurker, first time poster - also as sound engineer! So heres the cleaned up version of the phone call. Its not great but better than the source!

http://d01.megashares.com/dl/2170045/greg-lemond-stephanie-mcilvain.mp3
:)

OK, I've never heard this before. I put it on in the background, and then I had to stop what I was doing. WOW:eek::eek::eek:

Anyone who hasn't formed an opinion on the issue of Lance's doping should give this a listen.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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131313 said:
OK, I've never heard this before. I put it on in the background, and then I had to stop what I was doing. WOW:eek::eek::eek:

Anyone who hasn't formed an opinion on the issue of Lance's doping should give this a listen.

Yup, its pretty damning alright.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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slowspoke said:
Yup, its pretty damning alright.

not only damning but entertainment of the highest form! This is everything I come to "The Clinic" for, and more, all wrapped up into one beautiful soliloquy.

I realize that most of the forum participants have had this on an endless loop for background music for the last few years, but it's all new to me.

It's all here: murder, mystery, mayhem, sex, deceit....LeMond's family troubles, Sheryl Crow's promiscuity (I think she may have bumped off two of old BF's too, but I'm not sure???), Lance's 250K plane rides (and he's still not happy!), Hincapie's two-headed baby...it's all here.

Then, almost like some surreal French novel, it speeds up at the end and they start sounding like chipmunks. Really, entertainment doesn't get better. My only disappointment is that I was on the edge of my seat waiting to hear some stuff about the Lindbergh baby. Maybe it's on a later recording...

Seriously, there's really no need to even read this forum anymore. It's all in this tape.

Thanks again!
 
Jul 15, 2010
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barn yard said:
transcript for those with no sound pls :)

Umm.... its 32 mins long! And the speed up thing on the end is in the original recording. There is a break in the recording, so Greg could have recorded it @ double speed by accident.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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add to this tape recorded by greg another one recorded by frankie, that of armstrong lawyer admitting to have been lying about the hospital room. don't know if the internet version was ever circulated.

also imagine, novitzky may be in possession of similar tapes involving armstrong and his associates conversations wrt to landisgate. in fact, i am sure there are more recordings the media can only guess about.
 
May 20, 2010
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slowspoke said:
Hi there,

Long time lurker, first time poster - also an sound engineer! So heres the cleaned up version of the phone call. Its not great but better than the source!

http://d01.megashares.com/dl/2170045/greg-lemond-stephanie-mcilvain.mp3
:)

Thanks for that. I'd actually never listened to it even though it's been floating around since I was mired in the sh#%storm.
She and Greg make the sad statement that people kept their mouths slammed shut out of fear of losing their jobs--something I can relate to, of course, and yet...
It's good to see all of the information out there finally coalescing-and that people are actually paying attention. What was once only whispers is now becoming quite a roar.