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Handle bar said:Realist is confused. This is a fraud case, not a doping case. All of the GC guys for the last 20 years have doped. In fact many did before that - it was a part of the sport.
Realist said:Weird. I don't think I said anything about the Novitzky investigation specifically. I was interested in the evidence that is publically available (or at least accessible) regarding doping in top level cyclists, in this context, because he is the only one who has continued to deny it, against Armstrong. Turns out I was confused though because we can only discuss things in one dimension on this forum.
David Suro said:One of the interesting portions of the Wikipedia page is that a race "rule book" from the TdF to the riders stated that "drugs would not be provided by the organizers". In other words, you have to bring your own, guys.
Realist said:Can we collate the evidence against Armstrong concisely? I'm sure there are a lot of things missing from my account. Just bullet points, provide references if asked? Would be helpful to have something to summarise what is currently known. Probably not worth going into legal technicalities and bank accounts and suchlike. Can we do technicalities of the case in another thread?
1. 6 positive tests from the 1999 tour. Mike Ashenden confirms these results are solid and can be relied on. Mike Ashenden: not typically prone to conspiracy theories.
2. Direct testimony of Frankie Andreu that Armstrong took drugs and discussed drugs with his doc (SCA dep)
3. Direct testimony of Betsy Andreu as above (SCA dep)
4. Direct testimony of Michael Anderson that he found an androgen in Armstrong's bathroom (counterclaim)
5. Emma O'Reilly to Walsh that corticosteroid prescription was faked
6. Direct testimony of Floyd Landis that he received drugs, encouragement and instruction in using drugs from Armstrong
7. Hearsay evidence of Lemond and others regarding Stephanie McIlvain's recollection of the conversation the Andreu's testimony regarding hospital bed confession (saying she agreed with the statements, before saying they were false under oath at the trial).
I'm sure I've missed things here? Help out?
1. Ex-postal riders turning positive. Too many to list. Someone want to try?
2. Almost all previous competitors in the TdF 1999-2005 admitting to use or turning positive or being involved in Puerto. Unlikely that a non-doped athlete could compete with these people given the typically small margins in elite sport. Again, too many riders to list, someone take a shot?
3. Association with Ferrari
4. Intimidation of Simeoni (watching this live is what almost removed all doubt for me - the 'zip your lips' gesture was practically an admission of guilt).
GENERAL EVIDENCE REGARDING PREVALENCE OF DOPING
1. Analytical positives. There are some.
2. Non-analytical stuff. There are way more. Proving the testing doesn't work. We get into the land of assumptions here... but presumably we don't find all the Puerto's. We know about Ferrari, about the german clinic, about Puerto. But who knew about Puerto before it came out? Noone mentioned it. It was all Ferrari and Conconi. So there's probably more we don't know about.
3. I've heard from some well-published exercise physiologists that because of various things they've found out, they now find it difficult to enjoy watching professional cycling. I've heard from riders who've been exposed to drugs in the early 2000's and quit riding or scaled back their ambitions to the amateur level. I've seen amateurs at regional races I've known to dope (f*wits - I've beaten some of them). Sorry I can't be more specific. Plenty of people have similar stories.
4. Game theory. No, really.
slowspoke said:Hi there,
Long time lurker, first time poster - also as sound engineer! So heres the cleaned up version of the phone call. Its not great but better than the source!
slowspoke said:Yup, its pretty damning alright.
slowspoke said:Hi there,
Long time lurker, first time poster - also an sound engineer! So heres the cleaned up version of the phone call. Its not great but better than the source!