What if Contador gets the Giro taken away. Would you still see him as the winner.

[jens_attacks]

contador,of course.the races are won on the road.
it's like saying pereiro won 2006 tour de france or menchov winner of vuelta 2005,or andy in 2010 which is just pathetic.even them would be ashamed of this.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Jesus Christ. Attitudes like some of those expressed here encapsulate why cycling still has a doping problem.

 

[TheRossSeaParty]

Walkman, I agree and posted something very similar in a thread no one read yesterday.

I had an idea regarding cyclists who are still competing pending a verdict on their doping case. Should they be found guilty they should get a choice between two options. One is that their suspension gets backdated to when they tested positive and any and all results they have picked up since then get nullified, but the athlete spends less time away from competition. The second is that they start their suspension from the day the verdict is given and get to keep all results except for the race they tested positive in. This would then mean it would be a lot longer before they return to the sport. So if Contador is found guilty of doping by CAS, he could either lose his 2010 TDF and keep all other results since then and start his suspension (however long it may be) in June 2011, or he could lose all his results, but have his suspension (however long) start from the rest day in the 2010 TDF that he tested positive on. I think this might help with the unpleasant circumstance of having to rewrite results after the fact. It seemed to be quite a disaster for the sport having to take Valverde's results away (especially since his participation changed the outcome of all those results) and give them to the second place rider.

Just thought I'd float that out there and see what anyone else thinks.

I think as long as it takes over a year or more for the appeals process than it is only fair to run things this way.

 

[Cobblestoned]

No problem here and voted yes, like in that other poll about TdF2010 earlier.
For me, Alberto will be the "true" winner of both GTs.

That he is still allowed to ride is a problem of rules and procedures - not his fault.
And it was really sad to see what he had to go through today.

 

[spalco]

[snip]

Why should the athlete get to choose? Nobody forces an athlete caught/accused of doping to appeal his ban, they could just say "yes, I did it, sorry (or not sorry)", take their ban and go on with it - like Vino did. The issue only gets murkied by people who develop elaborate defenses and stretch out the whole process, but why reward them for doing that? (assuming of course that in the end the person in question gets convicted and isn't found innocent)

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

Jesus Christ. Attitudes like some of those expressed here encapsulate why cycling still has a doping problem.

That's it. It's another GT which will lose its "winner" - but this time everyone knew it already before.

 

[moi123]

If he gets banned in the end it wouldn't matter as it would be a disgrace anyway!

 

[killswitch]

Not a Contador fan, but he should be seen as the winner. Shouldn't have been on the start list though..

Jesus Christ. Attitudes like some of those expressed here encapsulate why cycling still has a doping problem.

Cycling has had (since the days of Coppi) and will always have a doping problem. Like every professional sport. But of course it's always cycling which is taking the blame, while footballers, rowers, rugbysts (sp?), etc. are macrodosing/doping with even worse stuff and let off the hook.

edit: I'm not pro doping.

 

[luckyboy]

It isn't right that nobody knows what ban a rider might get when they test positive.

There seems to be very little consistency in terms of anything surrounding doping + bans.

 

[The Hitch]

Not a Contador fan, but he should be seen as the winner. Shouldn't have been on the start list though..


Cycling has had (since the days of Coppi) and will always have a doping problem. Like every professional sport. But of course it's always cycling which is taking the blame, while footballers, rowers, rugbysts (sp?), etc. are macrodosing/doping with even worse stuff and let off the hook.

edit: I'm not pro doping.

To be fair to Zvinoviev letter, he did take part in some of the "other sports" threads in the clinic some time ago, joining me in arguing that other sports are as dirty as cycling, so while i feel the same anger at other sports pinning all their sins on us, ZL cant really be accused of falling for the "only cyclists are evil" line taken by the media.

 

[Lanark]

Hard to say, I don't see Pereiro as a Tour-winner, although I do consider Menchov a three time GT winner.

I think it depends a bit on the eventual winner. If it's a guy who just happened to be second but never wins something big again, it's hard to see someone like that as a GT winner.

Some with Schleck, if Contador gets banned and Schleck wins the 2011 and 2012 Tour, I would consider him a three time Tour winner, if he doesn't win anything, I wouldn't consider the 2010 Tour his either.

 

[boomcie]

No problem here and voted yes, like in that other poll about TdF2010 earlier.
For me, Alberto will be the "true" winner of both GTs.

That he is still allowed to ride is a problem of rules and procedures - not his fault.
And it was really sad to see what he had to go through today.

I wasn't aware he didn't hire those lawyers himself

 

[Izzy eviel]

Oscar is still the winner of the 2006 tour for me. Floyd who?

Doping is a form of cheating. It's no different a scenario then when I was 10 & won the school obstacle race during sports-day when the kid who came first was dq'd for not completely the course correctly.

It'd be a shame if he did lose the Giro win though. As a racer he has impressed me quite a lot during this Giro.

 

[theswordsman]

I'll word this carefully. Contador is under about as much scrutiny as the UCI and Italian justice have available. He and a few others even had their bikes inspected by the UCI at the Grossglockner finish. I can't imagine people think he's not competing fairly while being subjected to things a guy with six pink jerseys in a row is subjected to. The race is two weeks along. He's got a stage win, two second places on climbs where he alone had the same time as the winner, plus the second to Anton today. Right now he also has the red and the green jerseys, with a good chance to keep them both. Still to come is the toughest mountain stage, especially after yesterday and today's efforts, then a mountain TT and another one at the finish.

Yes, I'll consider him the winner no matter yet. About fifteen months ago, I wrote here that being a Contador fan is me giving pro cycling one last chance, and that if he ever gets sent on vacation, I'm done with the sport forever. So, there's a chance this might be the last race I ever watch, and unless there's some proof that Alberto cheated in some way during these 23 days, he's the champion of the race. The actual record books will be left to people still following the sport.

 

[ferryman]

Hard to say, I don't see Pereiro as a Tour-winner, although I do consider Menchov a three time GT winner.

I think it depends a bit on the eventual winner. If it's a guy who just happened to be second but never wins something big again, it's hard to see someone like that as a GT winner.

Some with Schleck, if Contador gets banned and Schleck wins the 2011 and 2012 Tour, I would consider him a three time Tour winner, if he doesn't win anything, I wouldn't consider the 2010 Tour his either.

I've read your post a few times now but still can only come up with is Your logic and case is just wrong.

 

[killswitch]

To be fair to Zvinoviev letter, he did take part in some of the "other sports" threads in the clinic some time ago, joining me in arguing that other sports are as dirty as cycling, so while i feel the same anger at other sports pinning all their sins on us, ZL cant really be accused of falling for the "only cyclists are evil" line taken by the media.

Didn't mean to offend anyone. I rarely go to the Armstrong subforum.

 

[Aristarchus]

How is Contador going to have the Giro win taken away? If he is banned in the June hearing, would this invalidate this year's wins prior to said hearing? I assumed that he'd get to keep the wins that happened during the appeal.

 

[Lanark]

I've read your post a few times now but still can only come up with is Your logic and case is just wrong.

What logic? I'm not even trying to make a case. Whether you think of someone who was later banned as a gt winner or not is mostly an emotional affair, you can make up some rules about what should be the case, but that doesn't mean that's how you actually think about it.

I would be interested in a poll how many people here consider Menchov the winner of the 2005 and 2007 Vuelta, and how many people consider Pereiro the 2006 Tour winner. I wouldn't be surprised if the first group is much larger than the second, although those cases are pretty much equivalent.

 

[Angulo]

Contador is The Cheater.
This competition is between Anton, Nibaly, Scarpony, Gadret, Menchov, J.Rod and Rujano. I don't see Contador on the TV screen. Because anyone of other riders would not race this giro after clenbuterol case.

Conta is now in Doping Team Saxo. HTC(t-mobile), Radioshack(us postal, Astana with Bruyneel) and all teams of Riis are megadopers in peloton.

 

[Walkman]

I agree. That's the way it should be.
I can see a couple of problems though: If a rider chooses the first option and is acquitted, what do you do with the time he's been suspended? He should obviously have some kind of reimbursement for that. And there should be a difference between an acquittal appealed to CAS (by UCI, WADA or whoever else), and a suspension appealed to CAS (by the rider).

This is a very delicate matter and it is hard to come up with a solution that pleases everbody. I surely see the problem with a rider choosing the first option and the gets acquitted but it is the nature of cycling that has created this problem and I still think this is the best option. As of now AC totally ruins/changes the dynamics of all the races he enters. Racing for second place becomes very attractive as second will be equal to winning if AC gets convicted. The best thing would be if WADA and CAS had some more resources so that they could work faster.

The main problem though is that all these cases take way too long, a rider, his team mates, his opponents, and cycling fans shouldn't be kept in limbo for that much time.

Agreed!

 

[Archibald]

If he crosses the line first in Milan, for me he won't be the winner. And I doubt I'll change my mind even if CAS clears him.

The whole business has dragged on for so long that I just kind of feel that way about him now. Sorry, folks: it's my prejudice and I'll live with it!

have to agree
also had a good chuckle at the booing on Zoncalon and his surprise at it

I'm sure scarponi wouldn't have been as smashed because he'd have never gone into the red chasing contador on etna...

 

[K-0tic]

That's bull. And massively unfair.

Exactly, the whole competition is about fairplay. If someone cheats, you automatically award the guy who was best after him the win if he wasn't breaking the rules. That's how it goes.

 

[jobiwan]

How is Contador going to have the Giro win taken away? If he is banned in the June hearing, would this invalidate this year's wins prior to said hearing? I assumed that he'd get to keep the wins that happened during the appeal.

Nope, just ask Valverde.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Normally I find it harder to accept #2 as the legitimate winner, because they are often not tested to the same standards throughout, tests they would have had to face if they had been more clearly on the 'hot seat'...

1]... from a race pov [rider and his team will have had an easier ride with less duties and having faced far less direct challenges]
2]... from a doping test pov [tested less frequently and/or with tests not done to the same standards/depth that nailed #1]

Here, however, all riders know that Contador is riding with a Damocles' Sword firmly suspended above him, so you'd have to be an absolute idiot to be riding for 'just' the #2 spot in this race, and not take that very seriously.

Normally -and all too frequently- it spoils the legitimacy a bit for me, although I do accept the legal winner as the real one [or both, in that warped inconsistent way that only humans muster so well without feeling inconsistent].

This time all teams and riders know what the situation is from the moment the Giro kicked off. That changes the internal sums for me by quite a big margin.

Actually, I would even find it easier to swallow this one than the GT where the then race leader was yanked out of the Tour with only some stages left [Rasmussen gone with all the climbs firmly behind them].

At the moment it is great viewing, I think, with Contador displaying some hot stuff [assuming it is done within the same parameters that apply to all], and the race for second/first on a knife's edge.

1 second is it, with tomorrow still to come? There are really two races worth watching, this time.

Actually Hitch, my preferred answer is 'both', assuming that Contador is not turfed out for a positive test in this race as well. In that case he would show he was clearly the better rider, so wins that contest in real life, but at the same time shouldn't have been there, a technicality, albeit the one that really matters too.

 

[ManInFull]

I ask this because in a few weeks Contador (should he finish as expected in 1st) might have his Giro taken away and would like to see what fans in the Pro racing section, not the Armstrong subforum, aka clinic, think about taking gts away.

So no doping talk, just do you see the guy standing on the podium or the guy who gets the jersey afterwards, as the legitimate winner.

I think it's crap that he will have wins taken away because of what happened in July 2010. It's not his problem that the judgement process takes forever. If he hasn't failed any tests during this current season, then all of his performances should be recognized as being legitimate. He should only have to give up his 2010 TdF title.