What the hell just happened ?

[BillytheKid]

It depends if they include copies of the affidavits. If they do it will be very, very long. Hundreds of pages

It's probably sitting there ready to go, but why not build some suspense to garner a greater audience? Stagecraft has been a theme all along.

 

[Race Radio]

It's probably sitting there ready to go, but why not build some suspense to garner a greater audience? Stagecraft has been the theme all along.

I agree Armstrong's "Defense" has largely been stagecraft, smoke and mirrors.

To some minor extent Wonderboy's stagecraft is responsible for some of the delay. USADA had to dedicate resources that could have been focused on compiling the dossier to countering Armstrong lies and attempts to use political influence to obstruct USADA from doing their job.

 

[BillytheKid]

Those are entirely speculative are they not?



There is this little thing called the 5th amendment. THere is also the fact that none of these guys tested positive while employed with Mr. Armstrong? So he's apparently an evil genius after all.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrongs-ex-wife-involved-in-doping-scheme

So apparently, for years, this stuff was going on, right in the open, and all of the searches of team vehicles, etc. continuously came up empty handed?

As yet another person(s) are smeared by anonymous accusations. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to rebut the person who made these allegations?

Maybe it would be nice if we had an evidenced based process rather than trial by press and mutial recrimination and smear?



So is yours. Only the point of your speculation appears to be to 'get Lance' at any cost. Mine is aimed at reducing the superfluos stupidity that just smeared another cyclist and an ex-wife.

Witness intimidation ala the mafia?




And I am sure that people's actions are being filtered without bias in this case?

Again, you defend to the death the arbitration panel, completely ignore the criticisms the judge had about the process, and ignore the fact that the system allows LA to simply skip it to fight later. Why waste time an energy on USADA prcoess that is loaded, when you can go to a court and get a fair hearing with a judicial body that can control both CAS and WADA/USADA?

And finally, a reminder, as asked an skipped by so many on this forum, what happens if we did this to Cadel? Well, the only response is, "Well, there is not a body of evidence so this is stupid."

Did Cadel not ride for T-Mobile? Did he not know his team mates were engaged in systemic doping? Looks like we have another two decade investigation on our hands now boys.

The point: this speculative BS has to stop. Its not catching dopers, its ripping our sport apart. Get a court system set up and leave it at that. No other sport is this self destructive. None.

I agree. Very well said.
"In order to save the village, we had to destroy it"-from a US commander during Vietnam.

 

[BillytheKid]

I agree Armstrong's "Defense" has largely been stagecraft, smoke and mirrors.

To some minor extent Wonderboy's stagecraft is responsible for some of the delay. USADA had to dedicate resources that could have been focused on compiling the dossier to countering Armstrong lies and attempts to use political influence to obstruct USADA from doing their job.

I disagree, both sides have engaged in it, but you cannot deny the timing of press reports and the USADA decission have been played to impact the sport, or, as I said, garner a greater audience.

The timing of most major events and stories from Landis on could in no way bennifit LA. So what are we to concluded?

 

[Wallace]

Those are entirely speculative are they not?

There is this little thing called the 5th amendment. THere is also the fact that none of these guys tested positive while employed with Mr. Armstrong? So he's apparently an evil genius after all.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrongs-ex-wife-involved-in-doping-scheme

So apparently, for years, this stuff was going on, right in the open, and all of the searches of team vehicles, etc. continuously came up empty handed?

As yet another person(s) are smeared by anonymous accusations. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to rebut the person who made these allegations?

Maybe it would be nice if we had an evidenced based process rather than trial by press and mutial recrimination and smear?



So is yours. Only the point of your speculation appears to be to 'get Lance' at any cost. Mine is aimed at reducing the superfluos stupidity that just smeared another cyclist and an ex-wife.

Witness intimidation ala the mafia?




And I am sure that people's actions are being filtered without bias in this case?

Again, you defend to the death the arbitration panel, completely ignore the criticisms the judge had about the process, and ignore the fact that the system allows LA to simply skip it to fight later. Why waste time an energy on USADA prcoess that is loaded, when you can go to a court and get a fair hearing with a judicial body that can control both CAS and WADA/USADA?

And finally, a reminder, as asked an skipped by so many on this forum, what happens if we did this to Cadel? Well, the only response is, "Well, there is not a body of evidence so this is stupid."

Did Cadel not ride for T-Mobile? Did he not know his team mates were engaged in systemic doping? Looks like we have another two decade investigation on our hands now boys.

The point: this speculative BS has to stop. Its not catching dopers, its ripping our sport apart. Get a court system set up and leave it at that. No other sport is this self destructive. None.

I swore I wouldn't ever post here again, but the brain-exploding stupidity of this post is too much to take without comment. You want to stop the speculating? Then shut your mouth for two weeks. The USADA case will be--my "speculation"--complete and irrefutable. Of course your posts here are nothing but an effort to muddy the waters, so that when we finally see all the eye-witness testimony, the failed tests, the payments, etc, you'll still be shouting unfair! We didn't actually catch him with a needle in his a$$ drinking a bag of blood, so he has to be innocent! We're just ripping the sport apart!

Actually, the sport is doing just fine, if you leave the forums and pay attention to the races. Other than Radioshack/Datsun having some problems, the sponsors are staying, the crowds are growing, etc. The fans know that the efforts to clean up cycling are proof of its health. It's too bad that Football and Tennis and American Football aren't as concerned about cheating as our sport is--maybe someday, following our example, they will be.

 

[thehog]

I agree. Very well said.
"In order to save the village, we had to destroy it"-from a US commander during Vietnam.

The village was destroyed in 1999.

 

[gree0232]

I swore I wouldn't ever post here again, but the brain-exploding stupidity of this post is too much to take without comment. You want to stop the speculating? Then shut your mouth for two weeks. The USADA case will be--my "speculation"--complete and irrefutable. Of course your posts here are nothing but an effort to muddy the waters, so that when we finally see all the eye-witness testimony, the failed tests, the payments, etc, you'll still be shouting unfair! We didn't actually catch him with a needle in his a$$ drinking a bag of blood, so he has to be innocent! We're just ripping the sport apart!

Actually, the sport is doing just fine, if you leave the forums and pay attention to the races. Other than Radioshack/Datsun having some problems, the sponsors are staying, the crowds are growing, etc. The fans know that the efforts to clean up cycling are proof of its health. It's too bad that Football and Tennis and American Football aren't as concerned about cheating as our sport is--maybe someday, following our example, they will be.

Amazing.

The get Lance at any cost club is out, apparently blind and deaf to the realization that in two weeks time not only will the evidence be released, but the rebuttal will begin ... and in the mean time, we might as well smear Hincapie (I mean he just retired ... so he's fair game) and LA's ex-wife with anonymous allegations from 1998 - well before the statue of limitations.

We;ll then ignore the flight of sponsors, the implosion of several high level teams), the breakaway league forming, ignore baseballs handling of the process, and .. get angry?

How dare anyone stand up to the lance trolls? THey will, yell, scream, belittle, insult, and blow their stacks!!! Run to the moderation team with superfluous accusations (because it works for Hincapie, might as well use it on posters who do not blindly follow the herd!)

What was it LA called this process? Right, a witch hunt.

And when anyone playing the role of defense with a single pot of evidence is villified by the side claiming its the one that needs special protection from witness intimidation?

The sport is cycling, not - get Lance at any cost!

For those who are adverse to having their opinion challenged, I highly recommend you give http://www.agreewitheverythingisay.com a try.

Undoubtedly, your anger will not be challenged by something as rigorous a differing opinion there.

 

[Race Radio]

I disagree, both sides have engaged in it, but you cannot deny the timing of press reports and the USADA decission have been played to impact the sport, or, as I said, garner a greater audience.

The timing of most major events and stories from Landis on could in no way bennifit LA. So what are we to concluded?

USADA has not timed any press releases. That is just ridiculous. USADA's media presence has been minimal. They have the facts on their side so they do not have to fall back stagecraft and talking points like Wonderboy and the groupies do daily

 

[gree0232]

You're right.

What you don't seem to get is that USADA's case is about preventing future dopers.

What have we learned since EPO hit the scene in 1991?

1. Well-funded dopers are nearly impossible to catch in the short term. Guys like Michele Ferrari get rich figuring out how to cheat. Armstrong gets rich cheating. Nobody gets rich from anti-doping. All the money and doping talent is on the cheating side. The cheating side always wins in the short term.

Therefore, the anti-dopers must rely on other tools.

2. Frozen samples along with extended satute-of-limitations to let anti-dopers catch up.

3. Make an example out of doping's most organized, well-funded, well-protected and well-rewarded rider/team owner, Armstrong.

The only way to strip the incentive out of doping is to let today's dopers know they will never get away with it. In the case of doping, if justice doesn't have a long arm, there will be no justice at all.

I am going to disagree.

#1 - Chasing down LA is not about the furture. Its about getting Lance. Otherwise, when discussing this process, it would be reasonable to raise doubts about certain aspects of the process and have a civilized discussion.

As we can see, that is not the case.

#2 - Guys like Ferrari have already been tried ... and acquitted. The idea that a US agency can overturn an Italian court verdict is silly almost beyond imagination. It'll be quite interesting to see how USADA handles trying foreigners who have never stepped foot in the USA.

#3 - There has not been a case of frozen samples being tested beyond the statute of limitations. If they did so? So what? It has no bearing on what is actually happening with LA and goes to point #1.

What is good for AD policy and what is not?

For example, even stating that public smearing in the press is really bad? How does that help AD? Or does it just feed conspiracy like mechanical doping? Smear anyone who wins a race?

#4 - How is it that US Postal is the 'best' at this? Is what USADA is saying is true, then all themajor teams were doing this. Why are we so inept at finding things that, according to leaked speculative accusations, are in plain sight? In ALL the major teams?

How is this about the future and not the grinding of axes?

 

[gree0232]

Race Radio
This message is hidden because Race Radio is on your ignore list.


Really, it works.

 

[Race Radio]

Amazing.

The get Lance at any cost club is out, apparently blind and deaf to the realization that in two weeks time not only will the evidence be released, but the rebuttal will begin ... and in the mean time, we might as well smear Hincapie (I mean he just retired ... so he's fair game) and LA's ex-wife with anonymous allegations from 1998 - well before the statue of limitations.

We;ll then ignore the flight of sponsors, the implosion of several high level teams), the breakaway league forming, ignore baseballs handling of the process, and .. get angry?

The info about Kristen and George comes from witnesses who where there. They can talk to anybody about what they saw. Lance would prefer these riders continued the Omerta. The easiest way to prevent people from saying you are a drug mule is to not be a drug mule.

If you want to direct your anger regarding sponsors fleeing the correct target is Bruyneel, Armstrong, the doctors, and the UCI who enabled this mess for years. Blaming it the people who tell the truth is just absurd

 

[spetsa]

And when anyone playing the role of defense with a single pot of evidence is villified

If you were capable off providing a single shred of evidence, let alone a whole pot full, in LA's defense, maybe you would not feel so "villified". Provide us uninformed "haters" with one of those little tidbits of evidence that fill your soon to be released pot full of rebuttal, and there are many here that would be more than willing to engage in a meaningful discussion with the liikes of you. As it stands......................I will save my breath.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK - I have to come clean here and actually sheepishly admit that I am the OP here. That's right. I started this mess which is now at more than 25 pages even after my original question was answered by page 2. You all can blame me

After reading every page I am now literally down on my knees begging the administrator to please - if there is a god in heaven - please for the love of god put a stake thru the heart of this thread and end the pain and suffering.

Thank you

Firstly, do not in any way apologize- your thread has been hijacked, it is not your fault.
And it should be left open - this has become the Recovery room in The Clinic.

Here grown men can work through the 7 stages of grief - a place where dignity and logic (and spelling) are ignored.
They should be thanking you.

 

[gree0232]

If you were capable off providing a single shred of evidence, let alone a whole pot full, in LA's defense, maybe you would not feel so "villified". Provide us uninformed "haters" with one of those little tidbits of evidence that fill your soon to be released pot full of rebuttal, and there are many here that would be more than willing to engage in a meaningful discussion with the liikes of you. As it stands......................I will save my breath.

THe double standards are noted. Your side is able to publish any smear it wants to. I posted links to the USADA arbitration process and LA response, referrence the court, referrence the double standards in asking LA to admit he knew his fellow team mates were doping ... but not Cadel Evans when he road with T-Mobile ... etc. etc. etc.

The whole point of this thread is wondering why there is a two week delay in the evidence process, when the 'evidence' leaked suggests that USADA is still gathering evidence.

No need to address that point?

No need to address what has been released in a smear campaign in the press?

No need to address what is going to happen in a few weeks time.

Nope, just claim that your side is operating on evidence and everyone else is a troll.

Really, if you don;t want to discuss, fine. Move on. Be a grown up. But in two weeks time ... well, the defense gets it shot.

When people cannot handle a defense of their accusations ... well, the term accurately applied to such notions is witch hunt.

Either evidence drives AD or it does not. Prosecution must have a defense. And when we eliminate either of those two pillars of the justice system ... we don't get justice.

At least USADA is going through the motions, perhaps the forum's zealots could follow suit.

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

Undoubtedly, your anger will not be challenged by something as rigorous a differing opinion there.

Your posts are the antithesis of rigor.

 

[piemonster]

When people cannot handle a defense of their accusations ... well, the term accurately applied to such notions is witch hunt.

No it doesn't you silly sausage

 

[spetsa]

THe double standards are noted. Your side is able to publish any smear it wants to. I posted links to the USADA arbitration process and LA response, referrence the court, referrence the double standards in asking LA to admit he knew his fellow team mates were doping ... but not Cadel Evans when he road with T-Mobile ... etc. etc. etc.

The whole point of this thread is wondering why there is a two week delay in the evidence process, when the 'evidence' leaked suggests that USADA is still gathering evidence.

No need to address that point?

No need to address what has been released in a smear campaign in the press?

No need to address what is going to happen in a few weeks time.

Nope, just claim that your side is operating on evidence and everyone else is a troll.

Really, if you don;t want to discuss, fine. Move on. Be a grown up. But in two weeks time ... well, the defense gets it shot.

When people cannot handle a defense of their accusations ... well, the term accurately applied to such notions is witch hunt.

Either evidence drives AD or it does not. Prosecution must have a defense. And when we eliminate either of those two pillars of the justice system ... we don't get justice.

At least USADA is going through the motions, perhaps the forum's zealots could follow suit.

WTF? LA had a chance to "defend", now he can only use his PR machine for a public "rebuttal" when the report is released. That being said, I guess you are correct on one point. Gree, I am now on your side. This is outragous that the USADA is taking so long to release their report. It is a blatant disregard of LA's right to due process. He should not be forced to wait this long to pay someone to make a bigger *** out of himself.

 

[Merckx index]

Gree, let’s cut through the crap. You keep saying, take it to CAS:

Well, whether you like or hate LA, the fact remains, if we presume innocence, I would have done the same thing LA did. We all, using what I would assume is a little objectivity, know the outcome of that hearing even though it will not happen. Again, a prosecutor cannot be judge. Issue your verdict, I will see you at CAS. I will invest time and expense in a venue that actually matters, issue your verdict please.

Who is the arbiter? CAS. I fail to see what anything short of that is accomplishing with the same pot of evidence. Make the case, then accept the result.

Really, this isn’t hard. Why waste time with another couple of years of back and forth waiting for CAS to get involved. Just take it to CAS. Simple.

In response to this, I pointed out that USADA was quite willing to do this, but LA refused to:

USADA offered to take it to CAS. But only LA could initiate that step, prior to the regular appeal process, and he chose not to.

To which you replied:

He has not seen the evidence, and has no desire to go before what he believes is a kangaroo court. He also knows that the rules say it has to go to the UCI. He does have lawyers working for him. Whatever else, he's not stupid. Again, this process unfolds.

Do you see why I assumed you were referring to CAS as a kangaroo court? Anyone who saw your statement come immediately after mine would assume that. If you were not in fact referring to CAS, the only other possible interpretation of your statement is that you were dodging the issue, intentionally refusing to reply to it. So I will repeat:

USADA is willing to go to CAS. But only LA can request that the normal arbitration hearing be skipped, and the proceedings go directly to CAS.

If CAS is a fair venue, why do you suppose LA refuses to go there? And if you believe so strongly in CAS, why don’t you write to LA and urge him to reconsider his decision?

For the rest of your comments:

That is not true. THey have seven days to attempt to agree on a third member, and after that ... the arbitor is selected. Oh, all the arbitors are drawn uip from a list produced by ... USADA.

http://www.karlbayer.com/blog/usada-...f-arbitrators/

Did you read this link? The arbiters are chosen from a list produced by CAS, which you keep arguing is where this case should go.

The Pool of arbitrators will consist of arbitrators from the CAS who are U.S. citizens.

Also:

The arbitrators are required to disclose any circumstance likely to affect impartiality or independence. Id. at R-14. The AAA will rule on any challenges to the arbitrators.

So is the AAA part of the USADA conspiracy against LA?

And:

The Athlete may also invite the USOC Athlete Ombudsman to be an observer.

Can’t trust the USOC not to side with USADA, either?

Additionally, the simple fact remains that USADA is not just bringing charges, it has already declared guilt - then selected an arbitration process of its chosing, its time, place - even when to release the evidence. THe idea that it is acting completely impartially is nonsense.

Hello, USADA is the prosecutor, it is not supposed to be acting completely impartially. That is up to the arbiters, which, to repeat from your own link, are chosen from a list of CAS. Again, you have this crazy notion that USADA is both prosecution and judge. It is not.

You may want to explain that to all the people who routinely smear the UCI, including yourself. Who now, thanks to the acrimonious decision, HAS to publically defend itself from allegations of corruption.

I myself don’t recall smearing UCI, in any sense. But you are most definitely smearing USADA.

Now, put aside the animosity toward LA, and tell me that is concerns like that were raised for any other athlete, that we would sit on our hands?

Well, concerns like that could be raised for each of the other five men charged by USADA, and there you are, sitting on your hands, not raising the slightest protest on their behalf. I would bet a very large sum of money that if the USADA charging letter had not included LA, but did include the other five, you would never have come on this forum and complained about how unfair the process was.

[The witnesses] are entirely speculative are they not?

Oh, sure. Zabriskie, George, Levi, Vande, those guys didn’t want to go to the Olympics. They all decided, by coincidence, not to go at the last moment.

the point of your speculation appears to be to 'get Lance' at any cost. Mine is aimed at reducing the superfluos stupidity that just smeared another cyclist and an ex-wife.

You want superfluous stupidity? Instead of responding directly to the charges against him, he tries to argue that the rules don’t apply to him. I ask you again, why won’t LA agree to go directly to CAS?

And it should be left open - this has become the Recovery room in The Clinic.

Here grown men can work through the 7 stages of grief - a place where dignity and logic (and spelling) are ignored.
They should be thanking you.

Hear, hear. This thread is performing a great public service.

 

[Race Radio]

Race Radio
This message is hidden because Race Radio is on your ignore list.


Really, it works.

Gree, don't listen to those haters. Please continue to post here. Your rambling babble does more damage to the Lance myth then legions of haters.

keep up the good work

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Gree, don't listen to those haters. Please continue to post here. Your rambling babble does more damage to the Lance myth then legions of haters.

keep up the good work

I find myself actually looking forward to a 5000 word post from him now....knowing the amount of energy that it takes, only to have the post seen as irrefutable proof of several delusional belief disorders.

 

[HergèJohnson]

Actually Gree, I know it's my first post here and all, genuinely, but you are a disappointment as a man who apparently professes to follow cycling, and the spirit of fair competition, and I felt obliged to not only join the forum in response, and thus this conversation, and also to say that we both know due process has and is being followed. So please, please shutup, and even do Lance the favour of the due process he chose, or didn't as the case may be, or just plain is, you're certainly not doing him any favours with your arguments, and well, just wait for the evidence he personally chose not to contest.
You know as well as I do it is a conspiracy case, so the first person to plead stupidity in the public sphere early is not the one to call the shots.
It will out.
So please. Shhhh.

Hergè

 

[mewmewmew13]

Actually Gree, I know it's my first post here and all, genuinely, but you are a disappointment as a man who apparently professes to follow cycling, and the spirit of fair competition, and I felt obliged to not only join the forum in response, and thus this conversation, and also to say that we both know due process has and is being followed. So please, please shutup, and even do Lance the favour of the due process he chose, or didn't as the case may be, or just plain is, you're certainly not doing him any favours with your arguments, and well, just wait for the evidence he personally chose not to contest.
You know as well as I do it is a conspiracy case, so the first person to plead stupidity in the public sphere early is not the one to call the shots.
It will out.
So please. Shhhh.

Hergè

Haha...nice first post! Welcome Herge

 

[Hugh Januss]

Your posts are the antithesis of rigor.

Rigor mortis, maybe?

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Actually Gree, I know it's my first post here and all, genuinely, but you are a disappointment as a man who apparently professes to follow cycling, and the spirit of fair competition, and I felt obliged to not only join the forum in response, and thus this conversation, and also to say that we both know due process has and is being followed. So please, please shutup, and even do Lance the favour of the due process he chose, or didn't as the case may be, or just plain is, you're certainly not doing him any favours with your arguments, and well, just wait for the evidence he personally chose not to contest.
You know as well as I do it is a conspiracy case, so the first person to plead stupidity in the public sphere early is not the one to call the shots.
It will out.
So please. Shhhh.

Hergè

Be careful. There might be some hurt feelings about this.

Or the standard reply: 3 chapters of meandering cut and paste lifted from hundreds of other posts made by individuals of questionable intentions, or limited means.

 

[GJB123]

#2 - Guys like Ferrari have already been tried ... and acquitted. The idea that a US agency can overturn an Italian court verdict is silly almost beyond imagination. It'll be quite interesting to see how USADA handles trying foreigners who have never stepped foot in the USA.

You actually do know that in Italy it is forbidden for riders to work with Ferrari? No? Just ask Pozzato.

Regards
GJ