What the hell just happened ?

[Oldman]

THat is not what Travis Tygart is saying. Lets operate on the basis of fact, not innuendo and recrimination. It was end of the month, now its 15 OCT. And someone is talking about additional evidence being added to the file. The UCI should not ask, WTH?

Again, every situiation has two sides, and so far all this process has done is managed to get both sides varying opportunities to say, "In your face!!!"

Evidnece, please. CAS feel free to come down at any moment.

It is a fact that information supplemental and potentially more damaging to folks beyond the USPS case is being volunteered. People no longer racing are happy to see this come to light and feel more comfortable supporting the effort.

 

[Pazuzu]

http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/09/usada-response-to-uci-press-release/

Brilliant!

 

[dadane]

The justice department did press forward, eh?

Do a little research.

Glad that people are so willing to discuss the system that they will dredge up posts from a month ago and blindly dump them out there devoid of context ... because that means the system is functional and sound?

YOu don't have to demonize everyone who questions the system.

USADA is one of many thousands of bodies around the world working in a 'Watchdog' role. The processes they employ are defined according to the requirements of the industry that they serve to regulate. Without such bodies the economy of the whole planet would come to a standstill because of endless stupid and pointless litigation.

Yes, there is potential for corruption, just like there is in all governmental, legal systems, and self-regulatory bodies (e.g. UCI )

So, as you believe the system is clearly corrupt: Give me a specific instance of USADA corruption or even an example of USADA working outside it's mandated framework... 'cause there ain't one in this case.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

So, in short, the Lance Haters are not pepared for the evidence to rebutted.

And the bolded part up there? That is why I have concerns about this process.

I ealize this may shock, but sometimes in an adversarial based system of jurisprudence guilty people get off, sometime innocent people go to jail - but by in large we have faith that the system gets it right in an explanable and largely predictable manner.

If the schtick sticks, then the haters will think the system works perfect, and the fan boys scream conspiracy. If it doesn't, vast conspiracy in favor of Armstrong (who is worse than the mophia mind you), and the fan boys cheer.

Nobody has confidence in the system or the result.


Well, the good news is that we will still be talking about Wiggo's cadence, only it will also involve Cavendish's friends, exgirlfriend who swears she heard Wiggo and Cav talking about doping in front of Sceintologists who audited the record ... and can take great confidence in the process used to nail Wiggo ... 16 years from now.

Dysfunction.

Your posts are lacking in substance and value. Put on a pair of boxing gloves with glue in the finger pockets. In the end that will prove to be your most thoughtful decision.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Seems like Lance's lifetime ban will now be expanded to a 30 times lifetime ban.
Just read between the lines. It's clear and makes a lot of sense. This will be nothing but impressive and game-changing.

Well, there's a lot of US in USADA.

Don't get too cocky. He's a fan of Hollywood.

Maybe he's planning on pulling a Walt Disney. In 30 lifetimes we can unfreeze his head and use for a good soccer match.

My money's on Barcelona...

 

[dadane]

Don't get too cocky. He's a fan of Hollywood.QUOTE]

Ah, Sir Lancelot. Is John Cleese available at the moment?

 

[Big Doopie]

USADA has no choice but to provide the evidence to the UCI - because them's the rules.

no one is saying otherwise.

but when you have evidence that is going to indict the very people the system requires you to provide evidence to, then you must protect that evidence as long as possible.

usada has not made the slightest error in this whole process. they aren't about to give the uci -- a criminal organization -- room to wiggle out of this one.

 

[gree0232]

USADA is one of many thousands of bodies around the world working in a 'Watchdog' role. The processes they employ are defined according to the requirements of the industry that they serve to regulate. Without such bodies the economy of the whole planet would come to a standstill because of endless stupid and pointless litigation.

Yes, there is potential for corruption, just like there is in all governmental, legal systems, and self-regulatory bodies (e.g. UCI )

So, as you believe the system is clearly corrupt: Give me a specific instance of USADA corruption or even an example of USADA working outside it's mandated framework... 'cause there ain't one in this case.

Well, lets see if that works with other professions shall we? How many different industries have concerns with say aviation? THere are obvious military concerns and jurisdictions, many local airports, unions, airlines, etc. There is only ONE FAA to adjudicate the rules.

I think the key is also that they are independant of hawking the profession they regulate is probably worth mentioning as well.

What we do not have for the aviation field is the French Aviation authority attempting tell Delta how to run its airlines because they land in France sometimes. We do not have the USFAA to make sure that the FAA is getting it right. We do not have the UN fighting with various countries avaiation officials (at least not publically). We don't have police in Italy threatening to raid American Airlines to test the food quality of the in service flights - nor do we hav ethem checking baggage for illicit goods. We don't have Buzz Aldrin publically complaining about how screwed up the FAA is, and why the only reason he left space flight was because other rockets were using a better fuel.

In short, the current system of overlapping jurisdictions reporting to entirely different parent organizations ins a receipe for infighting and jealousy ... why pretend its working for cycling? Because it might get LA ... in another couple of years when it finally makes it to CAS?

Two decades, millions of dollars, and we MIGHT produce ONE conviction, for a relatively minor offense. Whether you like or hate LA, its not like he founded the Lords Resistance Army and employed child Soldiers to intimidate other cyclists into silence or anything.

Simply put, if the LA saga proves anything - it is the need to streamline this system, garner efficiencies, and, IMHO, adopt the same adversarial, evidenced based process that seems to work well in dealing with every other crime.

I mean God Lord, it didn;t take this long to nail Al Capone!

 

[gree0232]

no one is saying otherwise.

but when you have evidence that is going to indict the very people the system requires you to provide evidence to, then you must protect that evidence as long as possible.

usada has not made the slightest error in this whole process. they aren't about to give the uci -- a criminal organization -- room to wiggle out of this one.

If that were triuly the case then USADA should appeal directly to CAS - claiming that they have proof that the UCI is corrupt (which they have claimed).

One is left wondering why USADA would simply agree to turn everything over if they actually though the UCI was corrupt?

 

[gree0232]

Your posts are lacking in substance and value. Put on a pair of boxing gloves with glue in the finger pockets. In the end that will prove to be your most thoughtful decision.

How about you keep your unsolicited personal advice, which are really insults, to yourself?

And the lance haters accuse Lance of being a jerk?

Your position is going to be rebutted. That's how it works, whether you like it or not, its coming. And telling people to shiut up about it won't make that reality go away.

 

[ValleyFlowers]

Good read on the VeloNation website:
Kimmage selecting legal defence backing as ‘energised’ journalist prepares for UCI court action

The UCI will receive the file by October 15th at the latest, as will WADA. Kimmage’s hearing comes just under two months after this. And while there have been suggestions this week that the public release of the Armstrong investigation might not occur until the end of the year, the Irishman will presumably seek details earlier as part of his defence.

And the Paul Kimmage Defense Fund is just about to go over $40K.

 

[MarkvW]

How about you keep your unsolicited personal advice, which are really insults, to yourself?

And the lance haters accuse Lance of being a jerk?

Your position is going to be rebutted. That's how it works, whether you like it or not, its coming. And telling people to shiut up about it won't make that reality go away.

Thank you Baghdad Bob

 

[simo1733]

Well, lets see if that works with other professions shall we? How many different industries have concerns with say aviation? THere are obvious military concerns and jurisdictions, many local airports, unions, airlines, etc. There is only ONE FAA to adjudicate the rules.

I think the key is also that they are independant of hawking the profession they regulate is probably worth mentioning as well.

What we do not have for the aviation field is the French Aviation authority attempting tell Delta how to run its airlines because they land in France sometimes. We do not have the USFAA to make sure that the FAA is getting it right. We do not have the UN fighting with various countries avaiation officials (at least not publically). We don't have police in Italy threatening to raid American Airlines to test the food quality of the in service flights - nor do we hav ethem checking baggage for illicit goods. We don't have Buzz Aldrin publically complaining about how screwed up the FAA is, and why the only reason he left space flight was because other rockets were using a better fuel.

In short, the current system of overlapping jurisdictions reporting to entirely different parent organizations ins a receipe for infighting and jealousy ... why pretend its working for cycling? Because it might get LA ... in another couple of years when it finally makes it to CAS?

Two decades, millions of dollars, and we MIGHT produce ONE conviction, for a relatively minor offense. Whether you like or hate LA, its not like he founded the Lords Resistance Army and employed child Soldiers to intimidate other cyclists into silence or anything.

Simply put, if the LA saga proves anything - it is the need to streamline this system, garner efficiencies, and, IMHO, adopt the same adversarial, evidenced based process that seems to work well in dealing with every other crime.

I mean God Lord, it didn;t take this long to nail Al Capone!

I work for an Airline and we have been audited by FAA,EASA,ICAO,The local DCA and foeign DCA's. It would be great if we only had to answer to one authority.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well, lets see if that works with other professions shall we? How many different industries have concerns with say aviation? THere are obvious military concerns and jurisdictions, many local airports, unions, airlines, etc. There is only ONE FAA to adjudicate the rules.

I think the key is also that they are independant of hawking the profession they regulate is probably worth mentioning as well.

What we do not have for the aviation field is the French Aviation authority attempting tell Delta how to run its airlines because they land in France sometimes. We do not have the USFAA to make sure that the FAA is getting it right. We do not have the UN fighting with various countries avaiation officials (at least not publically). We don't have police in Italy threatening to raid American Airlines to test the food quality of the in service flights - nor do we hav ethem checking baggage for illicit goods. We don't have Buzz Aldrin publically complaining about how screwed up the FAA is, and why the only reason he left space flight was because other rockets were using a better fuel.

In short, the current system of overlapping jurisdictions reporting to entirely different parent organizations ins a receipe for infighting and jealousy ... why pretend its working for cycling? Because it might get LA ... in another couple of years when it finally makes it to CAS?

Two decades, millions of dollars, and we MIGHT produce ONE conviction, for a relatively minor offense. Whether you like or hate LA, its not like he founded the Lords Resistance Army and employed child Soldiers to intimidate other cyclists into silence or anything.

Simply put, if the LA saga proves anything - it is the need to streamline this system, garner efficiencies, and, IMHO, adopt the same adversarial, evidenced based process that seems to work well in dealing with every other crime.

I mean God Lord, it didn;t take this long to nail Al Capone!

Aviation.... lets see.

In the USA there is indeed the FAA.
In the EU they have EASA - and indeed each of the member states can have their own authority - so in the UK they have the CAA.

So, just like in sport - it would depend which authority the carrier (or individual) have their licence with and then you are subject to the rules of your licence and if passing through other countries their rules.

Your aviation analogy just crashed and burned.

 

[the big ring]

I work for an Airline and we have been audited by FAA,EASA,ICAO,The local DCA and foeign DCA's. It would be great if we only had to answer to one authority.

Please to not be letting facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[LeLanternRouge]

Centralised governance is and has always been the root cause of corruption.

While the police are policing the public, there must be someone policing the police, otherwise they have the power to act with impunity being answerable to no one.

However, I fear that gree0232 is being disagreeable simply for the sake of being disagreeable and maybe ignoring him would be a better course of action for more knowledgeable posters as opposed to futilely attempting to engage him in rational discussion. He does not seem willing to be persuaded, so why try to persuade him?

 

[koenigswarter]

Maybe GH's rumored confession is changing the rhetoric/approach of USADA's reasoned decision? Thats the only piece thing that changed in the last few days.

Well, I'd remind everyone that we've really no idea what's changed in the last few days, or weeks, or whatever. It could very well be quite a bit.

 

[sittingbison]

grrrrr....what the frak is the point of the ignore feature when people quote every single idiotic post? FFS if you REALLY want to feed a troll, snip the crud and just quote the good bits

 

[dadane]

Two decades, millions of dollars, and we MIGHT produce ONE conviction, for a relatively minor offense.

....etc.

I mean God Lord, it didn;t take this long to nail Al Capone!

Ignoring the exageration: Justice has a cost. Or we should we just take the cheaper option. Who's up for a bit of anarchy? Rape and pillage next week Sat, starts my place.

Now, back to the question I asked in first place... tum-te-tum-te-tum

 

[Hugh Januss]

Urp.

grrrrr....what the frak is the point of the ignore feature when people quote every single idiotic post? FFS if you REALLY want to feed a troll, snip the crud and just quote the good bits

For those of you scoring at home this is what a typical gree post would look like with the "crud" snipped.

 

[mr.biggles]

Who's up for a bit of anarchy? Rape and pillage next week Sat, starts my place.

Wait, did you just volunteer to be raped and pillaged?

 

[dadane]

Wait, did you just volunteer to be raped and pillaged?

Edit: Gather at my place.

Got to be a lot more fun than sitting at a PC countertrolling!

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Edit: Gather at my place.

Got to be a lot more fun than sitting at a PC countertrolling!

Lets start at Future Publishings

 

[gree0232]

I work for an Airline and we have been audited by FAA,EASA,ICAO,The local DCA and foeign DCA's. It would be great if we only had to answer to one authority.

Audited. And whom levies the fines based on what they find? All of them? EASA levie a lot of fines in Dallas? Publically tell the FAA how to run their business? A lot of foreign DCA's shut you down? Hound you for 16 years?

You flight plan, like a blood profile, does its read change when you cross the boundary between the FAA and EASA?

And when there is a serious problem with an airline, do all the those authorities publically blame the other one? Does the EASA threaten to shut you down before you appear before a public tribunal to answer for alleged misconduct? While FAA says, "not so fast!" and the the various DCA's all line up behind you ...

And, oh yes, if these overlapping agnecies get it wrong? People die.

If the USADA or the UCI gets it wrong ... someone cheated to win a race. Certainly not right, but if baseball can handle a massive steroid and growth hormone scandal without ripping itself apart ... perhaps there is something to learn there.

 

[gree0232]

Centralised governance is and has always been the root cause of corruption.

While the police are policing the public, there must be someone policing the police, otherwise they have the power to act with impunity being answerable to no one.

However, I fear that gree0232 is being disagreeable simply for the sake of being disagreeable and maybe ignoring him would be a better course of action for more knowledgeable posters as opposed to futilely attempting to engage him in rational discussion. He does not seem willing to be persuaded, so why try to persuade him?

Is this what you call attempting to persuade anyone? I am also glad that speculating about cyclists is not enough, we also have to speculate about those with different opinions as well.

You don't convict people based on evidence when you ignore or silence all dissent. If you wish to discuss corruption, it begins with rationalizing what you want - not governance.

BTW - Somalia has no central government. Neither does Afghanistan. Not quite sure what blaming government has to do with using evidence and transparent processes to catch criminals?