What the hell just happened ?

[Page Mill Masochist]

We've been speculating about that '30 times worse' statement for a while now.

Could 30 be the number of witnesses?

 

[hughmoore]

.....just a few more days of pretending this. Enjoy them while you can

I thought they are waiting until after the Superbowl, oh that's right that that was couple years ago when the haters said Novitsky was waiting for the Superbowl before releasing the evidence.

Still waiting!!!!!!

Still laughing and smiling!



Hugh

 

[Hugh Januss]

I thought they are waiting until after the Superbowl, oh that's right that that was couple years ago when the haters said Novitsky was waiting for the Superbowl before releasing the evidence.

Still waiting!!!!!!

Still laughing and smiling!



Hugh

Still stupid.

 

[shojii]

I thought they are waiting until after the Superbowl, oh that's right that that was couple years ago when the haters said Novitsky was waiting for the Superbowl before releasing the evidence.

Still waiting!!!!!!

Still laughing and smiling!



Hugh

Still laughing and smiling - until 15 October. Enjoy the frivolities while they last..

 

[piemonster]

The use of the term "Haters" for anyone that suspects Lance of doping must surely be approaching a 'Godwins Law' result

What an utterly ridiculous thing to write!

 

[Jack Aubrey]

The use of the term "Haters" for anyone that suspects Lance of doping must surely be approaching a 'Godwins Law' result

What an utterly ridiculous thing to write!

Never used the term but it's not about suspecting of doping. Read this forum - the majority are trying to discredit every aspect of his existence.

 

[Jalina]

the majority are trying to discredit every aspect of his existence.

He's done a pretty good job of that himself.

 

[Benotti69]

Never used the term but it's not about suspecting of doping. Read this forum - the majority are trying to discredit every aspect of his existence.

While you are trying to defend the actions of a doper, cheat, fraud, bully and a peson who has shown he is willing to hie his crimes behind a cancer veil, which is despicable to say the least.

He has been stripped. If UCI want to fight that decision they must got to CAS. They will not go to CAS, that much is sure.

Armstrong is not allowed to compete in sanctioned events. He has been handed a lifetime ban that is in operation.

He has been disgraced.

The UCI cannot stop that now. They are about to have their A$$e$ handed to them on a plate by an unemployed journalist in December.

 

[piemonster]

Never used the term but it's not about suspecting of doping. Read this forum - the majority are trying to discredit every aspect of his existence.

Utter tripe, what the majority want is clean cycling. He just happens to be the biggest fish in the doping pond.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

He's done a pretty good job of that himself.

The majority (CN excluded) would disagree.

 

[Jalina]

The majority (CN excluded) would disagree.

The "majority" put Pitbull at the top of the charts. I don't think being in the "majority" necessarily has anything to do with intellect.

 

[Benotti69]

Anyone seen any new ads with Armstrong flogging his sponsors or has he disappeared?

 

[Animal]

Never used the term but it's not about suspecting of doping. Read this forum - the majority are trying to discredit every aspect of his existence.

Passive-aggressive stance as usual from trolls.

 

[Berzin]

Further reinforces that the Federal investigation was killed due to politial influence. Somebody wanted to protect Wonderboy. Thankfully though, the USADA conducted their own simultaneous investigation.

And the weight of the Federal investigation got riders to talk to the USADA, which otherwise most likely wouldn't have happened. Thankfully, the USADA appears to be beyond the immediate reach of hack politicians. Although I expect them to keep trying to derail this thing.

Derailing the investigation is going to be impossible once the USADA's reasoned decision becomes public, and that day is coming soon.

This is what is needed more than anything. Since Armstrong has relied on public opinion to steer the outrage towards his being treated unfairly, and the manner in which he has set the narrative with his defiant, "everyone's against me" comments (which seems to rile the fanboys to no end, and who doesn't like a rebel?), we need to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

The UCI cannot censor the document from public scrutiny, as much as they would like to. So regardless of what decision they make, the public outrage will swing the other way.

 

[fatandfast]

Derailing the investigation is going to be impossible once the USADA's reasoned decision becomes public, and that day is coming soon.

This is what is needed more than anything. Since Armstrong has relied on public opinion to steer the outrage towards his being treated unfairly, and the manner in which he has set the narrative with his defiant, "everyone's against me" comments (which seems to rile the fanboys to no end, and who doesn't like a rebel?), we need to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

The UCI cannot censor the document from public scrutiny, as much as they would like to. So regardless of what decision they make, the public outrage will swing the other way.

The public outrage has been so far to give 2 days of news coverage to the story. Increased donations,optimistic estimates have numbers up 20% to Livestrong. Lance racing in 4 events and getting praise from promoters about his presence. The only real outrage is within a very small group of cycling fans that have decided that there was a clean sport which has been fouled by Armstrong's drug use. For everybody else that has been watching pro bike racing Phramstrong's drug exploits are not outrageous or surprising.
The outraged public does not exist.

 

[D-Queued]

... the majority are trying to discredit every aspect of his existence.

Sorry. We are just trying to keep up with it all. Likely the same fundamental reason that USADA has delayed its report to the UCI.

Lance's SCA deposition alone is still being mined for gems.

From paying off the competition at Core States / Triple Crown to compromising potentially legitimate athletic events with his lifetime ban, this wouldn't fill a book. There is far too much material.

It is an encyclopedia on the worst of the worst.

All indications are that he is just going to keep on keeping on.

Dave.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

The public outrage has been so far to give 2 days of news coverage to the story. Increased donations,optimistic estimates have numbers up 20% to Livestrong. Lance racing in 4 events and getting praise from promoters about his presence. The only real outrage is within a very small group of cycling fans that have decided that there was a clean sport which has been fouled by Armstrong's drug use. For everybody else that has been watching pro bike racing Phramstrong's drug exploits are not outrageous or surprising.
The outraged public does not exist.

I don't think 'public outrage' will really manifest itself. The public is probably tired of all of this anyway.

The outrage will remain within the sport and its affiliated entities: sponsors, federations, and other interested parties that will come to realize what the truth is and has always been.

The fact is that when the report is released, what we learn about LA will not be a surprise. What will be the big surprise is that we will see the enablers. They will be exposed and the fallout from that will be staggering.

Who knew what was going on the whole time ??:

1) Nike
2) Trek
3) Oakley
4) USAC
5) UCI
6) Who else?

Plenty of horsepower there to lobby the DOJ, but not USADA fortunately.

The rhetoric from the delusional fanboys will be so entertaining in a few weeks!!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

While you are trying to defend the actions of a doper, cheat, fraud, bully and a peson who has shown he is willing to hie his crimes behind a cancer veil, which is despicable to say the least.

He has been stripped. If UCI want to fight that decision they must got to CAS. They will not go to CAS, that much is sure.

Armstrong is not allowed to compete in sanctioned events. He has been handed a lifetime ban that is in operation.

He has been disgraced.

The UCI cannot stop that now. They are about to have their A$$e$ handed to them on a plate by an unemployed journalist in December.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure - never never never underestimate the stupidity and arrogance of our beloved UCI.

 

[Race Radio]

Still laughing and smiling!

Hahahahaha

 

[Benotti69]

Hahahahaha

make a good t-shirt

 

[sittingbison]

RR you forgot smiling

 

[gree0232]

I don’t know where you get the notion that USADA is both prosecutor and judge. Again, it gets to pick one arb, the athlete picks a second, those two arbs agree on a third. That does not make USADA the judge.

In jury trials, the prosecution and defense cooperate in selecting the jury members. Does that make the prosecution the judge?

That is not true. THey have seven days to attempt to agree on a third member, and after that ... the arbitor is selected. Oh, all the arbitors are drawn uip from a list produced by ... USADA.

http://www.karlbayer.com/blog/usada...cess-part-iii-the-appointment-of-arbitrators/

Incidentally, the prosecution and defense do anything but cooperate on selection of a jury. The defense and prosecution go to great lengths to attempt to shape the jury to one that is most supportive of their arguement.

Additionally, the simple fact remains that USADA is not just brionging charges, it has already declared guilt - then selected an arbitration process of its chosing, its time, place - even when to release the evidence. THe idea that it is acting completely impartially is nonsense.

The simple fact of the matter is that USADA has now staked its entire reputation on LA. No biases, eh?

And the bottom line, as always, is that the athlete originally agreed to this system. Whether it is as “fair” as the criminal justice system is irrelevant. The athlete chose to submit to these procedures. Again, LA at one time said he welcomed a USADA investigation. Someone who thought the system was profoundly unfair would never welcome an investigation through it. It only became unfair when it came up with a conclusion he didn’t like.

The only results management that USADA hold is for trafficking of drugs. The rest gets deferred to the Natuional federation. Please bear in mind that the DOJ just completed an investigation into these exact charges, and decided the evidence did not reach a level sufficient to bring charges.

Indeed, the USADA has conducted an investigation entirely on its own, focused on a retired cyclist, hidden the evidence from examination, smeared the agencies that are there to counter balance it, barely won a court case that listed numerous short comings in the process, issued a declarative ban they cannot actually enforce, made short shrift of the statute of limitations, allowed spurious leaks about the process to smear any number of people (all without correction, and controls the arbitration process ... one LA elected to skip ... because the system, as set up, allows him to.

Additionally, USADA did not exist when Lance first started riding. Their role is similar to WADA, and, last time I checked, WADA was not holding arbitration hearings publically. This is not a normal procedure.

Its only fair now because its 'finally' getting the white whale of cycling.

The UCI is not being “backed into” the role of defense. That role is up to LA, or any other athlete charged by an ADA. The fact is, LA has considerably more resources at his disposal than the UCI has, he is perfectly capable of defending himself without UCI help. UCI took upon itself to challenge USADA, something it hasn’t done in the past, and an action that to many of us reeks of suspicion, suggests it has something to hide.

You may want to explain that to all the people who routinely smear the UCI, including yourself. Who now, thanks to the acrimonious decision, HAS to publically defend itself from allegations of corruption.

Yes, USADA most definitely pushed the UCI into the role of defense. THey have no one to blame but themselves.

Why do you think the outcome of the hearing is certain? The only reason I would have for believing that is because the testimony against LA is irrefutable. Because USADA, like most prosecutors, would not go to the trouble of laying out the charges unless it believed it had a case it was quite sure it could win. This is standard throughout the criminal justice system. Many criminals get off simply because the prosecution doesn’t believe it has enough evidence to make its case. If it does believe it does, it usually does win its case, so yes, the outcome is very likely.

http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/pdf/2012/Bock-letter.pdf

Now, put aside the animosity toward LA, and tell me that is concerns like that were raised for any other athlete, that we would sit on our hands?

I suggest you read the concerns raised by LA, concerns shared by the judge looking into this case. An interim decision, without prejudice, that in just a few weeks, we'll know whether or not USADA is telling the entire truth.

If the evidence released does not equate to the literal slam dunk that USADA claims it does ... USADA could find itself in a lot of trouble.

This forum willno doubt erupt in callings of conspiracy, but then, that is why I have so stringently advocated a process where evidence rules the outcome. That is not what is happening right now.

And after saying “see you at CAS”, “a venue that actually matters”, you later (see below) describe CAS as a kangaroo court. IOW, whatever the venue, it is not fair. Every time someone suggests another venue, you argue it is not fair. If the Supreme Court ruled that LA engaged in criminal activity related to doping, I have little doubt you would complain that the S.C. is not fair, and that our entire judicial system needs to be overhauled.

At no point have I called CAS a kangaroo court. I pretty clearly state that the arbitration process is a kangroo court.

I have little doubt you are deliberately misquoting me and resorting to hyperbole.

Can you tell me why one pot of evidence requires personal smears to discuss?

I really don’t understand all the hullabaloo over not naming the witnesses. We all know who they are, I could name most of them right off the bat. Suppose USADA officially announced today who they were. What difference would that make? Would LA say, oh, in that case, I will go to arbitration, now that I know who my accusers are? Of course not. He would immediately begin a smear campaign, at the very least, aimed at all of them, but it would have no affect on his decision to enter the arbitration process.

Why would you not?

We are dsupposed to out after dopers, LA is the armageddon itself for having lied about doping, and apparently we have ten that only confesses under duress ... but they are angels?

And a retired cyclist is going to use what leverage to silence them? Not let them ride for Radio Shack?

Can you tell me why a smear campaign is OK for LA, but no other allegedly doped cyclist? Can you tell me why someone is not allowed, as the US Constitution guarantees, allowed to face their accusers?

Can you tell me why we need to treat allegations in the press, which USADA and LA's critics have no problem doing, as if it the same thing as terrorism? But only when aimed at USADA's 'witnesses'?

It smacks of theatrics and something to hide. Make your case.

One pot of evidence.

He doesn’t need the names of the witnesses to prepare a case in his defense, because he already knows who they are. The only thing accomplished by officially naming the witnesses would be to put them in the public eye, where a smear campaign against them would be more effective.

Yes, he does.

If these witnesses are the same ten doofuses we have heard about for years now, then the defense says one thing. If its ten new' witnsses' then you prepare something different. There also seems to be the point about ten admitted dopers still being allowed to cycle in the peloton, apparently having their sanctions waived or reduced to already off time in exchange for ... the white whale.

Lets not forget Phil Anderson's claim as well - who was submitted to a rather public smear fest right here on this forum. Where was Papa Tygart and JV then?

This is a false analogy. The USADA was not given a set amount of time by some judge, within which it was ordered to produce something (unlike LA, who was able to get an extension at one point only because USADA granted him one).

THey gave themselves the timeline, and hav no one but themselves to blame for blowing it - without explanation. Additionally, by using the press to leak information, they have no one but themselves to blame for allegations that they are still collecting evidence coming out.

A judge seeing this would not be impressed. Who is the judge - not USADA? But USADA is controlling the entire process?

See the point yet?

Sure, a lot of us have speculated why USADA needs all this extra time. I will even agree with you that it doesn’t look very good. But UCI will get the files eventually, and no one is expecting them to support USADA until they do.

Except that they have. And they will still need to rebut the portions that charge them with official corruption and covering up results. What did USADA expect?

WTF? Before you said that it should all be resolved at CAS. You said UCI and USADA should take it there. You described CAS as a venue that matters. I point out that USADA is willing to do this, LA is the obstacle. Now you are saying CAS is a kangaroo court? You have lost all credibility. Apparently you believe there is no court, no venue, on earth that can provide LA with a fair trial.

Really, this isn;t hard. Why waste time with another couple of years of back and forth waiting for CAS to get involved. Just take it to CAS. Simple.

 

[gree0232]

Again, almost all the witnesses are well known. We are not talking about just Tyler and Floyd, and you know it. There is TD, Levi, vande, George, JV, yes, the Andreus, and several others I could speculate on.

Those are entirely speculative are they not?

It is not speculation, it is cold hard logic. He either knew his teammates were doping, or did not. Either situation raises very troubling questions.

There is this little thing called the 5th amendment. THere is also the fact that none of these guys tested positive while employed with Mr. Armstrong? So he's apparently an evil genius after all.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrongs-ex-wife-involved-in-doping-scheme

So apparently, for years, this stuff was going on, right in the open, and all of the searches of team vehicles, etc. continuously came up empty handed?

As yet another person(s) are smeared by anonymous accusations. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to rebut the person who made these allegations?

Maybe it would be nice if we had an evidenced based process rather than trial by press and mutial recrimination and smear?

It’s ironic that you try to label a point I make as speculation, when your entire argument is rife with speculation. Speculation.

So is yours. Only the point of your speculation appears to be to 'get Lance' at any cost. Mine is aimed at reducing the superfluos stupidity that just smeared another cyclist and an ex-wife.

Witness intimidation ala the mafia?

People advertise their state of mind by their actions. I know that he is someone who has always fought his accusers in the past, who did not simply defend himself against doping charges, but aggressively went after people who made them. Why is he not defending himself now?

And I am sure that people's actions are being filtered without bias in this case?

Again, you defend to the death the arbitration panel, completely ignore the criticisms the judge had about the process, and ignore the fact that the system allows LA to simply skip it to fight later. Why waste time an energy on USADA prcoess that is loaded, when you can go to a court and get a fair hearing with a judicial body that can control both CAS and WADA/USADA?

And finally, a reminder, as asked an skipped by so many on this forum, what happens if we did this to Cadel? Well, the only response is, "Well, there is not a body of evidence so this is stupid."

Did Cadel not ride for T-Mobile? Did he not know his team mates were engaged in systemic doping? Looks like we have another two decade investigation on our hands now boys.

The point: this speculative BS has to stop. Its not catching dopers, its ripping our sport apart. Get a court system set up and leave it at that. No other sport is this self destructive. None.

 

[ebandit]

what the hell happened

what the hell just happened? jeeez a load of crap ( above) from gree just hit my screen

meanwhile i don't think the delay in info from usada means much

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

Its not catching dopers

You're right.

What you don't seem to get is that USADA's case is about preventing future dopers.

What have we learned since EPO hit the scene in 1991?

1. Well-funded dopers are nearly impossible to catch in the short term. Guys like Michele Ferrari get rich figuring out how to cheat. Armstrong gets rich cheating. Nobody gets rich from anti-doping. All the money and doping talent is on the cheating side. The cheating side always wins in the short term.

Therefore, the anti-dopers must rely on other tools.

2. Frozen samples along with extended satute-of-limitations to let anti-dopers catch up.

3. Make an example out of doping's most organized, well-funded, well-protected and well-rewarded rider/team owner, Armstrong.

The only way to strip the incentive out of doping is to let today's dopers know they will never get away with it. In the case of doping, if justice doesn't have a long arm, there will be no justice at all.