What the hell just happened ?

[ebandit]

usada

Yep, lance is guilty because ANOTHER lance troll has suddenly been graced with clairvoyance and an ingrained class mentality.

Its so clear now.

This malice, so clearly on display ... its what you guys accuse LA of being.

read the usada charging letter.................lance was sanctioned for many things

but not malice

 

[gree0232]

This is a prime example of why you have zero credibility in this forum. Hello, I DID NOT SAY LA SHOULD TAKE IT TO CAS. YOU DID!! I quoted you multiple times, saying, take it to CAS, take it to CAS, take it to CAS. Then I pointed out USADA offered to take it directly to CAS, and LA refused.

Maybe you should tone down your angst a bit?

THis may coem a shock, but when YOU and the rest of the lance trolls are so hyperbolic that you deliberately skip what I write ... well, that is the CPT Ahab of a problem isn't it?

Again, lets see if plain English works for you. There is MORE THAN ONE WAY to get to CAS, and leaving USADA in charge doesn't work if its simply going tohold onto the evidence until you get to CAS. He's within the guidelines of the system allowing it to go to the UCI first. My statement, is that we should do away with these stupid processes and simply create a court system.

A point the apparently collectively brain dead lance trolls seem incapable of acknowledging. Now, based on the repeated reports of superfluous junk, I am going to have to report you to Red for deliberately misquoting me, abusing my position, and generally trolling with zero credibility?

And that is why LA is guilty. Not because of evidence or reason or objectivity.

Now, a closer look at some of the concerns with this process:

"Quite independently of Lance, with whom I wrote two books, for a long, long time I’ve had serious doubts about the motives, efficiency and wisdom of these “doping” investigations. In the Balco affair, all the wrong people were prosecuted. It’s the only so-called drug investigation in which the manufacturers and the distributors were given plea deals in order to throw the book at the users. What that told us was that it was big-game hunting, not justice. It was careerist investigators trying to put athletes’ antlers on their walls. Meanwhile, the Fourth Amendment became a muddy, stomped-on, kicked-aside doormat."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...8a13ca-ee22-11e1-afd6-f55f84bc0c41_story.html

No need to rebut that, or even acknoweldge such criticism, just scream conspiracy and troll and it goes away? Witch Hunt.

You, not I, are the one who suggested that LA should do things differently.

You, not I, are the one who implied that LA should follow your advice. Then, when someone points that out, you react by putting your own words into someone else's mouth. Instead of answering the freaking question--ONCE AND FOR ALL, DO YOU OR DON'T YOU THINK IT SHOULD GO TO CAS?--you go on a rant about how others don't appreciate LA's strategy. And you wonder why the few people who are still following this thread look at your posts with disbelief? And, to the extent that you are representative of fanboys, you wonder why people on this forum regard fanboys as utter idiots? So blinded by their loyalty as to be incapable of a 5th grade level of rationality?

No, I am suggesting that the system be changed and have tried repeatedly to take LA out of the examination of the system and its pros and cons, but the lance trolls keep bringing it back and attempting to shore up every percieved shortcoming with speculative nonsense. The action LA takes are within the system ... he's only skipped out on the USADA process ...

Another point you refuse to acknowlegde in what has become a smear fest.

And you wonder why people regard the quest for LA as something more akin to Moby **** than justice?

Like others in this forum, I have only pointed out that what is happening to LA now is the inevitable consequence of the choices he made. I really don't care if he takes it to CAS or not, except that if he does, evidence that might otherwise not go public probably has a better chance of seeing light of day. You, not I and the rest of us, are the one profoundly dissatisfied with what is going on, ranting and raving about how unfair the process is. You, not I and the others here, are the one who is upset that the USADA file has not been handed over yet.

LIke precious few others on the forum, but certainly not off, I am attempting to have a conversation about actual anti-doping with the white whale of cycling being thrown in my face or attacked by a bunch of people who think being malicious equates to being right.

You keep ranting and raving about how 'fair' the process is while ignoring everything. You call the UCI and its biases unfair, but USADA and its biases fair ... and then assume that you have some insight into governance that no one else does.

Perhaps this is why there has been no general uproar over LA? People have simply concluded that 16 years of moby **** equates to a bunch of people who are well beyond reason?

After all, just attempt to disagree with the hoard of lance haters and see what happens?

I asked you before how exactly LA is going to rebut any of the charges against him, and you still haven't answered, other than to make some ridiculous assertions that we don't know who the witnesses are.

I believe I answered that quoite directly.

Have you seen the evidence? Are you a USADA insider? Then please do not attempt you witch hunt tactics on me.

Do you have any idea how much projection you are engaged in? Again, you, not I, are the one whose posts fairly scream that the process is not going the way you want it to. I don't have any problem with what is happening at all. Sure, I wish there hadn't been this latest delay, but I can wait.

Really? In two weeks the evidence will be released. And the Lance trolls cannot even have a discussion about likely outcomes ... but it is me personally that is all screwed up?

Again, perhaps the 16 year quest to get vengence of LA is exactly that ... about vengence and not AD?

Wouldn't it be nice to get a response to that question? Instead of a bunch of insults, pointless accusations, non-citations, and insults?

Nope, nothing wrong with that process - its justice.

Again, it is your posts, not mine, that reveal the obsession of a fool and an idiot. This investigation is not just about LA, it is your overactive imagination that pretends that that is all it's about.

Yep, clearly the Lance trolls are rational and civilized people engaged in an unemotional search of evidenced based justice (only the evidence has not been released yet).

I mean, when smeone says, "Maybe we should stop speculating and leakinhg things to the press in a trail by public smear," the response is an ever so reasonable, "What!?! YOU are the one speculating, not me!!! ARRRGGHHHH!!!"

Two weeks gentleman. All the insults and silliness in the world won't stop what is coming, and its good to see that the lance trolls are spending the time lining up a bunch of insults and emotional antics rather than anticipating the response ... because anyone who does not join the anger fest without question MUST be attacked.

Thanks once again to all the lance trolls for reminding me of the uncivil antics that have allowed a hyperbolic minority to ruin this forum for everyone.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Maybe you should tone down your angst a bit?

THis may coem a shock, but when YOU and the rest of the lance trolls are so hyperbolic that you deliberately skip what I write ... well, that is the CPT Ahab of a problem isn't it?

Again, lets see if plain English works for you. There is MORE THAN ONE WAY to get to CAS, and leaving USADA in charge doesn't work if its simply going tohold onto the evidence until you get to CAS. He's within the guidelines of the system allowing it to go to the UCI first. My statement, is that we should do away with these stupid processes and simply create a court system.

A point the apparently collectively brain dead lance trolls seem incapable of acknowledging. Now, based on the repeated reports of superfluous junk, I am going to have to report you to Red for deliberately misquoting me, abusing my position, and generally trolling with zero credibility?

And that is why LA is guilty. Not because of evidence or reason or objectivity.

Now, a closer look at some of the concerns with this process:

"Quite independently of Lance, with whom I wrote two books, for a long, long time I’ve had serious doubts about the motives, efficiency and wisdom of these “doping” investigations. In the Balco affair, all the wrong people were prosecuted. It’s the only so-called drug investigation in which the manufacturers and the distributors were given plea deals in order to throw the book at the users. What that told us was that it was big-game hunting, not justice. It was careerist investigators trying to put athletes’ antlers on their walls. Meanwhile, the Fourth Amendment became a muddy, stomped-on, kicked-aside doormat."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...8a13ca-ee22-11e1-afd6-f55f84bc0c41_story.html

No need to rebut that, or even acknoweldge such criticism, just scream conspiracy and troll and it goes away? Witch Hunt.

You, not I, are the one who suggested that LA should do things differently.

No, I am suggesting that the system be changed and have tried repeatedly to take LA out of the examination of the system and its pros and cons, but the lance trolls keep bringing it back and attempting to shore up every percieved shortcoming with speculative nonsense. The action LA takes are within the system ... he's only skipped out on the USADA process ...

Another point you refuse to acknowlegde in what has become a smear fest.

And you wonder why people regard the quest for LA as something more akin to Moby **** than justice?



LIke precious few others on the forum, but certainly not off, I am attempting to have a conversation about actual anti-doping with the white whale of cycling being thrown in my face or attacked by a bunch of people who think being malicious equates to being right.

You keep ranting and raving about how 'fair' the process is while ignoring everything. You call the UCI and its biases unfair, but USADA and its biases fair ... and then assume that you have some insight into governance that no one else does.

Perhaps this is why there has been no general uproar over LA? People have simply concluded that 16 years of moby **** equates to a bunch of people who are well beyond reason?

After all, just attempt to disagree with the hoard of lance haters and see what happens?



I believe I answered that quoite directly.

Have you seen the evidence? Are you a USADA insider? Then please do not attempt you witch hunt tactics on me.




Really? In two weeks the evidence will be released. And the Lance trolls cannot even have a discussion about likely outcomes ... but it is me personally that is all screwed up?

Again, perhaps the 16 year quest to get vengence of LA is exactly that ... about vengence and not AD?

Wouldn't it be nice to get a response to that question? Instead of a bunch of insults, pointless accusations, non-citations, and insults?

Nope, nothing wrong with that process - its justice.




Yep, clearly the Lance trolls are rational and civilized people engaged in an unemotional search of evidenced based justice (only the evidence has not been released yet).

I mean, when smeone says, "Maybe we should stop speculating and leakinhg things to the press in a trail by public smear," the response is an ever so reasonable, "What!?! YOU are the one speculating, not me!!! ARRRGGHHHH!!!"

Two weeks gentleman. All the insults and silliness in the world won't stop what is coming, and its good to see that the lance trolls are spending the time lining up a bunch of insults and emotional antics rather than anticipating the response ... because anyone who does not join the anger fest without question MUST be attacked.

Thanks once again to all the lance trolls for reminding me of the uncivil antics that have allowed a hyperbolic minority to ruin this forum for everyone.

Great points.

 

[caryopsis]

Vezzini from the Princess Bride really comes to mind when reading Gree's posts.

And the one who keeps referencing class warfare and Captain Ahab/Moby D!ck is the one accusing others of hyperbole and angry angst...

 

[mr. tibbs]

Great points.

Yeah, for sure. The "witch hunt" and Moby **** vendetta stuff is super sharp. It's also clever to steer the conversation in an Armstrong doping thread to non-Armstrong doping stuff.

 

[MarkvW]

Yep, lance is guilty because ANOTHER lance troll has suddenly been graced with clairvoyance and an ingrained class mentality.

Its so clear now.

This malice, so clearly on display ... its what you guys accuse LA of being.

Lance isn't guilty. He's just the central cog in the biggest doping conspiracy in the history of sport! He's the biggest cheater of them all!

Surely you can forgive the haters their malice. After all, it's not about you . . . Unless you're Lance, that is.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hey Gree,
You appear to claim that Armstrong will/can "rebutt" this case when USADA give their reasoned decision and that there is more than one way to get to CAS.

If this is indeed your position - then why do you call this a witchhunt/vendetta and want to do away with this "silly process".

Which is it?

 

[Oldman]

Vezzini from the Princess Bride really comes to mind when reading Gree's posts.

And the one who keeps referencing class warfare and Captain Ahab/Moby D!ck is the one accusing others of hyperbole and angry angst...

Loved the movie and your reference. It does appear that the few defenders of LAFaithful have moved to classifying the investigators now that the evidence clearly exists to sanction him. They must not had much of a stake in the MLB investigations or it wouldn't be such a shock.

 

[fixedgear]

My statement, is that we should do away with these stupid processes and simply create a court system.

And that is why LA is guilty. Not because of evidence or reason or objectivity.


"Quite independently of Lance, with whom I wrote two books, for a long, long time I’ve had serious doubts about the motives, efficiency and wisdom of these “doping” investigations. In the Balco affair, all the wrong people were prosecuted. It’s the only so-called drug investigation in which the manufacturers and the distributors were given plea deals in order to throw the book at the users. What that told us was that it was big-game hunting, not justice. It was careerist investigators trying to put athletes’ antlers on their walls. Meanwhile, the Fourth Amendment became a muddy, stomped-on, kicked-aside doormat."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...8a13ca-ee22-11e1-afd6-f55f84bc0c41_story.html

No need to rebut that, or even acknoweldge such criticism, just scream conspiracy and troll and it goes away? Witch Hunt.


No, I am suggesting that the system be changed and have tried repeatedly to take LA out of the examination of the system and its pros and cons, but the lance trolls keep bringing it back and attempting to shore up every percieved shortcoming with speculative nonsense. The action LA takes are within the system ... he's only skipped out on the USADA process ...

Another point you refuse to acknowlegde in what has become a smear fest.

And you wonder why people regard the quest for LA as something more akin to Moby **** than justice?



LIke precious few others on the forum, but certainly not off, I am attempting to have a conversation about actual anti-doping with the white whale of cycling being thrown in my face or attacked by a bunch of people who think being malicious equates to being right.

You keep ranting and raving about how 'fair' the process is while ignoring everything. You call the UCI and its biases unfair, but USADA and its biases fair ... and then assume that you have some insight into governance that no one else does.


Have you seen the evidence? Are you a USADA insider? Then please do not attempt you witch hunt tactics on me.

Again, perhaps the 16 year quest to get vengence of LA is exactly that ... about vengence and not AD?

I mean, when smeone says, "Maybe we should stop speculating and leakinhg things to the press in a trail by public smear," the response is an ever so reasonable, "What!?! YOU are the one speculating, not me!!! ARRRGGHHHH!!!"

It's interesting to examine the evolution of Gree's posts. They began somewhat muddled in tone and left me wondering if you're neutral or simply disguising your true intent and feelings. Now, that you have been continually pestered by people in this forum, you reveal your intent and position with tempered anger.

What I take away from your heavily worded, and somewhat confusing posts is this:

1) You think USADA is biased.
2) You think it has been a witchhunt on their part.
3) You dislike what you view as a smear campaign on USADA's part.
4) You feel that the UCI and/or CAS are better orgs to settle the allegations.
5) You want a court system set up.

This is the distillation of the thousands of words you have put into this thread. And to be honest, it looks exactly like the main strategic talking points that LA and his lawyers have put out to the press and general public in their 'soft' defense of the allegations. By soft, I mean, using media as a way of proving one's innocence.

You claim to want to have a discussion solely about the process, devoid of LA but cry foul that others bring him back into the discussion. Then perhaps you should open an entirely new thread on that subject? Boom. Problem solved.

However, I'm skeptical because I've always detected in your posts an underlying sense of hostility and passive aggressive tendency to simply want to argue for LA's innocence.

To the points above, 1-3 are purely speculation on your part, which you are entitled to. 3-4 are opinions that I think only belong in the discussion IF the process has been found to be unfair. Which, regardless of differing opinions on the matter, is not the case at this very moment.

Evidence will trump 1-3, because, in my opinion, regardless if there was bias, if the evidence was obtained legally and lawfully, then it doesn't matter what the motives were. Do you think prosecutors aren't biased or have alterior motives when investigating a crime? And as far as your statement about a 16 year witchhunt, what about crimes that are retried after new evidence has been found? Is that considered a witchhunt? Justice is not always swift. The wheels sometimes turn slowly.

By the way, please give an explanation to your Mercer quote. Were you simply searching for a way to discredit Mercier?

 

[gree0232]

Lance isn't guilty. He's just the central cog in the biggest doping conspiracy in the history of sport! He's the biggest cheater of them all!

Surely you can forgive the haters their malice. After all, it's not about you . . . Unless you're Lance, that is.

You will forgive me my caution, but, if what has been leaked is true, then the various police agencies of Europe and the US (who have been unable to turn up anything in numerous raids and searches, wire taps, etc) are the most incomptent agencies the world has ever seen, and the testing regime is absolutely pointless ... because everyone should be testing positive left and right, and their blood passports should be rife with data corroberating this easily garnered information.

Or, there is a massive conspiracy afoot, one in which cyclists spend all their money on anti-doping bipasses ... including Wiggans, Cancellera, etc.

Just curious, how much money is being spent on this massive cover-up and why are the various police agencies so inept and unable to trace this money?

Perhaps there is simply an aspect of Moby **** here? Seems simpler than a massive concpiracy does it not?

 

[Hugh Januss]

So Sally Knob Polisher Jenkins is someone with a realistic opinion about USADA huh? That article read just like it was written by the LA public relations corp, of which I would not be at all surprised to find out she is a part.

That's it, strike 17, off to ignore land you go. Have fun there.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

According to the lance trolls, EVERYONE was doing it and all the teams have their own massive doping conspiracy ...

You will forgive me my caution, but, if what has been leaked is true, then the various police agencies of Europe and the US (who have been unable to turn up anything in numerous raids and searches, wire taps, etc) are the most incomptent agencies the world has ever seen, and the testing regime is absolutely pointless ... because everyone should be testing positive left and right, and their blood passports should be rife with data corroberating this easily garnered information.

Or, there is a massive conspiracy afoot, one in which cyclists spend all their money on anti-doping bipasses ... including Wiggans, Cancellera, etc.

Just curious, how much money is being spent on this massive cover-up and why are the various police agencies so inept and unable to trace this money?

Perhaps there is simply an aspect of Moby **** here? Seems simpler than a massive concpiracy does it not?

Great points.

 

[gree0232]

1) You think USADA is biased.
2) You think it has been a witchhunt on their part.
3) You dislike what you view as a smear campaign on USADA's part.
4) You feel that the UCI and/or CAS are better orgs to settle the allegations.
5) You want a court system set up.

Not quite.

#1 - I think USADA is biased, but so is every other organization in this AD system. These biases play out in a way that results in general smear rather than progress in actually cleaning up the sport. What we do not have in all these agencies is a defined prosecutor or defense, and there is not an independant court system that can cut through the resulting interagency smear fest. CAS is as close as we have ....

#2 - I think hunting down a retired cyclist with a lot of press leaks is not about justice. I think the utter inability tio actually discuss the system without being insulted and accused is indicative of the highly polarized atmosphere that flows from #1.

Call it whatever you wish, but the delay in evidence is worrisome, the leaked press rumors, etc. do not point toward an evidenced driven process.

#3 - It is smear campaign, one that now encompasses Hincapie and many other people, which is odd as Hincapie is supposedly given evidence in the exact same press releases? Only, when he denies it ... suddenly he's smeared.

That is not an evidence driven process is it?

#4 - See #1.

#5 - Yep, a system with a defined prosecutor, defined defense, and a court of sport that is independant.

I also think the arbitration system should be done away with, its expensive, its inefficient, and its indefinite. Only CAS has brought resolution to issues. Why pretend anything else is working?

#6 - I also think both sides need to cool their jets a bit and actually attempt to have a discussion about actual anti-doping practices. Again, I have some professional back ground in just this field, and when I look at the UCI vs WADA, while the IOC sits back and does nothing while they rip each other apart, I see exterme dysfuction.

WADA should be prosecutor, UCI should have a cycling union underneath its auspicious, that acts as a defense, and the court system need to be an extention of CAS.

Finally, yesterday, no one heard of Mercer. Today, Papa Tygart lionizes him and suddenly, the Lance trolls have a new hero they know nothing about? A quick back ground check reveals he has something of a sordid past, but any attempt to paint Mercer as anything other than a gladiator for truth are ignored by a corwd of lance trolls who have lost any semblence of objectivity.

We are in a system in which anyone who makes any claims about doping is believed automatically, and anyone who questions their intent or the veracity of the information is demonized and accussed of copnspiracy.

If that is not a witch hunt, WTH is it?

Prosecution is beyond question, defense is a conspiracy, and the court appears to be public opinion?

Nothing whatsoever wrong with that process? Really?

 

[superleicht]

. . . then the various police agencies of Europe and the US (who have been unable to turn up anything in numerous raids and searches, wire taps, etc) are the most incomptent agencies the world has ever seen . . .

I never claimed they were competent - maybe they have other priorities and are leaving control of doping in sport to other organizations?

... because everyone should be testing positive left and right, and their blood passports should be rife with data corroberating this easily garnered information.

Perhaps they are? But if there is a desire by those at the top of the sport to control the results, we wouldn't likely know, would we?

Or, there is a massive conspiracy afoot, one in which cyclists spend all their money on anti-doping bipasses ... including Wiggans, Cancellera, etc.

The way the system is structured, you only have to grease a few palms.

Just curious, how much money is being spent on this massive cover-up and why are the various police agencies so inept and unable to trace this money?

Probably not that much (see above) relative to the potential rewards. And cash is difficult to trace.

This is too easy.

Superleicht

 

[gree0232]

So Sally Knob Polisher Jenkins is someone with a realistic opinion about USADA huh? That article read just like it was written by the LA public relations corp, of which I would not be at all surprised to find out she is a part of.

That's it, strike 17, off to ignore land you go. Have fun there.

See above.

Anything critical is unobjective and part of a conspiracy - no need to even address the criticism as laid out.

Anything that supports LA trolls is taken as gospel.

Why pretend that these personal barbs are discussion?

In two weeks time, the screaming will start. The question is whether or not this forum will contain the screaming when a rebuttal arrives?

 

[Velodude]

Where do you live that the criminal justice system is so flawed?

Putin's Russia comes firstly to mind.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

See above.

Anything critical is unobjective and part of a conspiracy - no need to even address the criticism as laid out.

Anything that supports LA trolls is taken as gospel.

Why pretend that these personal barbs are discussion?

In two weeks time, the screaming will start. The question is whether or not this forum will contain the screaming when a rebuttal arrives?

Hi Gree - can you please explain how Lance can rebutt something when he did not take part in the process?

 

[gree0232]

I never claimed they were competent - maybe they have other priorities and are leaving control of doping in sport to other organizations?

Right. You are just claiming that there is a mountain of incriminating evidence, that no police force can find. Having worked with several of the police agencies in Europe, your conspiratorial dismissal of them ad incompetent is noted ... and irrelevant.

Its just these kinds of smears that are unhelpful and born in utter ignorance an intransigence.

Perhaps they are? But if there is a desire by those at the top of the sport to control the results, we wouldn't likely know, would we?

Once again, when the 'results' are shared at multiple organizations, how is that even possible? Well, apparently, the entire field of various agencies ripping each other apart are actually quietly hiding things behind the scence?

Verbruggen and Pound are actually engaged to be married, eh?

The funny thing is, when corruption is rife ... there is evidence of it. As a certain govenor in Illinois found out. But these same police agencies are now, when doping is happening in their country ... inept?

http://www.steroids.info/2011/12/10/steroids-bust-poland/

http://english.ruvr.ru/2012/01/04/63374511.html

It funny how informant information about PH drugs leads to arrests and convictions in other sports involving these same police agencies? But when cyclists are involved ... it leads to ... press smears and accusations ... empty raids and no arrests?

The way the system is structured, you only have to grease a few palms.

COnspiracy 101, the lazy excuse of anyone not interested in finding the truth.

Probably not that much (see above) relative to the potential rewards. And cash is difficult to trace.

The cash is what is difficult to hide. The cash is what is traceable.

This is too easy.

Superleicht

Certainly is when the goal is deny everything that does not conform to the great hunt for the white whale. But we have no gone from smearing everyone around LA, to the sports governing bodies, to the entire polce agencies of Europe and the USA, ... but Papa Tygart will make it al right?

Conspiracy has always been easy to believe in and devilishly difficult to prove.

 

[superleicht]

Anything critical is unobjective and part of a conspiracy - no need to even address the criticism as laid out.

Well, I think the conspiracy is close to being revealed

Anything that supports LA trolls is taken as gospel.

Don't know about anyone else here, but I'm waiting to see what USADA has.

Why pretend that these personal barbs are discussion?[?QUOTE]
???

In two weeks time, the screaming will start. The question is whether or not this forum will contain the screaming when a rebuttal arrives?

Screaming? Like little teenage girl screaming? Or more like cathartic release screaming?

Superleicht

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's interesting to examine the evolution of Gree's posts. They began somewhat muddled in tone and left me wondering if you're neutral or simply disguising your true intent and feelings. Now, that you have been continually pestered by people in this forum, you reveal your intent and position with tempered anger.

What I take away from your heavily worded, and somewhat confusing posts is this:

1) You think USADA is biased.
2) You think it has been a witchhunt on their part.
3) You dislike what you view as a smear campaign on USADA's part.
4) You feel that the UCI and/or CAS are better orgs to settle the allegations.
5) You want a court system set up.

<snipped for brevity>

Ya - but you were not here in 2009
I was - so I knew there is no "neutrality" there, just lots of hypocrisy.

Heres one post from him in 2009:

I am perfectly willing to call Lance Armstrong a doper, pendng one hurdle: He must have testably and verifiably have committed an anti-doping violation. Three times his alleged activity has been brought before some sort of authority that could have sanctioned him for his actions, and three times he has been exonerated. That is pretty strong evidence.

I will also share with you why a put so much emphasis on evidence rather than suspicion and rumor.

I was embedded with and worked for a very senior Iraqi General. He is literally one of the most honorable men I have ever met, and I watched him deliberately purge his forces of suspect influence in one of the gutsiest things I have ever seen done. Rumors in the Middle East are a world onto themselves. Anybody who was successful in that environment is immediately questioned, suspicions are raised, and rumors are spread.

The Iraqi general was adament about requiring evidence to accompany rumors and had a very strong and independant section that answered only to him to investigate rumors. If he found proof, the subordinate was relieved on the spot and quite possibly jailed. If he found no proof, the subordinate remained at his post and he publically praised the subordinate to indicate that any further rumors would be directly challenging his honor. There were a few times when unsubstantiated rumors went over his head and his hand was forced, but he handled those whom were removed as a result in a very different manner.

Those who were under different commanders did not fair so well against the rumor machine. Simply put, I have seen rumors spawned of jealousy alone destroy very good men and women, in a place that was desperate for good people.

That does not mean that everyone who has doubts about Armstrong is guilty of maliciously spreading rumors, I too harbor doubts after all. However, those who have initiated these rumors from the comfort of anonimity and failed to back up their claims with solid evidence are the worst kind of cowards.

The 1999 'positives' are a case in point. None of the proper procedures were followed that could have resulted in a conviction. Some of the most petty bureaucratic infighting I have ever seen are present in this case, and I have seen my fair share of bureaucratic pettiness. That these results were release, leaked actually, as positives at all, when they met no standards to be considered positive was an afront to sound anti-doping.

It undercut WADA and LNDD's legitimate and sound anti-doping efforts. I will credit **** Pound with using his influence and abilities to create WADA, a very important step forward in cleaning up all sports. However, that episode and a few others that relied on innuendo rather than solid, science based evidence delayed the clean up that we are now belatedly seeing in cycling. I do fault Pound for that.

In fact, I think it was the Landis case that finally cleaned it up, the case where WADA finally realized that publicity could bite both ways and that has straightened them up and lead to the professional, sound system of anti-doping that is catching those who are cheating.

As the system gets better, as the positives come forward, we can say with definity who is and who is not a doper based on a sound system rather than on suspicion and rumor alone.

The abscence of standards is a poison that taints all results and is worse than actual doping. Destroying the reputations of good men and women, riders, in a quest to allay rumors is wrong -- at least in my opinion (and being a stubborn Irishman, I do have them)

Hmmm - the Landis case cleaned up the system.....

 

[BroDeal]

Conspiracy has always been easy to believe in and devilishly difficult to prove.

Not that hard when the evidence is so overwhelming that the chief conspirator figures he might as well accept the punishment without fighting the charges. Slam dunk, baby. Win. Win. Win.

Haters: 7
True Believers: 0

Game. Set. Match.

 

[superleicht]

Right. You are just claiming that there is a mountain of incriminating evidence, that no police force can find. Having worked with several of the police agencies in Europe, your conspiratorial dismissal of them ad incompetent is noted ... and irrelevant.

Er, you were the one that suggested they were incompetent. I suggested they may have bigger fish to fry

Verbruggen and Pound are actually engaged to be married, eh?

That's news to me!

The funny thing is, when corruption is rife ... there is evidence of it.

Hmmm . . . how do you know USADA doesn't have that evidence?

The cash is what is difficult to hide. The cash is what is traceable.

Silly me - I thought drug money was laundered through topless bars to make it HARDER to trace!

Superleicht

 

[Polish]

Brodeal, where is link that shows Lance accepting sanctions?
He rightfully has said he is the 7 time winner. That is True.

Lance refused to wrestle with the pigs. Big Difference there. Can't you see that?

Maybe you should reread Lance's statement? Reread Lance's Lawyer statement that came out the same evening too.

OneTwoThreeFour FiveSixSeven.
Scoreboard.

USADA is freaking out. They should be.
As long as Lance is listed as the Official Winner of the TdF, USADA freaks.
They need to lobby more in France. More L'equipe stuff. Visit the ASO.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Maybe you should tone down your angst a bit?

THis may coem a shock, but when YOU and the rest of the lance trolls are so hyperbolic that you deliberately skip what I write ... well, that is the CPT Ahab of a problem isn't it?

Again, lets see if plain English works for you. There is MORE THAN ONE WAY to get to CAS, and leaving USADA in charge doesn't work if its simply going tohold onto the evidence until you get to CAS. He's within the guidelines of the system allowing it to go to the UCI first. My statement, is that we should do away with these stupid processes and simply create a court system.

A point the apparently collectively brain dead lance trolls seem incapable of acknowledging. Now, based on the repeated reports of superfluous junk, I am going to have to report you to Red for deliberately misquoting me, abusing my position, and generally trolling with zero credibility?

And that is why LA is guilty. Not because of evidence or reason or objectivity.

Now, a closer look at some of the concerns with this process:

"Quite independently of Lance, with whom I wrote two books, for a long, long time I’ve had serious doubts about the motives, efficiency and wisdom of these “doping” investigations. In the Balco affair, all the wrong people were prosecuted. It’s the only so-called drug investigation in which the manufacturers and the distributors were given plea deals in order to throw the book at the users. What that told us was that it was big-game hunting, not justice. It was careerist investigators trying to put athletes’ antlers on their walls. Meanwhile, the Fourth Amendment became a muddy, stomped-on, kicked-aside doormat."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...8a13ca-ee22-11e1-afd6-f55f84bc0c41_story.html

No need to rebut that, or even acknoweldge such criticism, just scream conspiracy and troll and it goes away? Witch Hunt.

You, not I, are the one who suggested that LA should do things differently.

No, I am suggesting that the system be changed and have tried repeatedly to take LA out of the examination of the system and its pros and cons, but the lance trolls keep bringing it back and attempting to shore up every percieved shortcoming with speculative nonsense. The action LA takes are within the system ... he's only skipped out on the USADA process ...

Another point you refuse to acknowlegde in what has become a smear fest.

And you wonder why people regard the quest for LA as something more akin to Moby **** than justice?



LIke precious few others on the forum, but certainly not off, I am attempting to have a conversation about actual anti-doping with the white whale of cycling being thrown in my face or attacked by a bunch of people who think being malicious equates to being right.

You keep ranting and raving about how 'fair' the process is while ignoring everything. You call the UCI and its biases unfair, but USADA and its biases fair ... and then assume that you have some insight into governance that no one else does.

Perhaps this is why there has been no general uproar over LA? People have simply concluded that 16 years of moby **** equates to a bunch of people who are well beyond reason?

After all, just attempt to disagree with the hoard of lance haters and see what happens?



I believe I answered that quoite directly.

Have you seen the evidence? Are you a USADA insider? Then please do not attempt you witch hunt tactics on me.




Really? In two weeks the evidence will be released. And the Lance trolls cannot even have a discussion about likely outcomes ... but it is me personally that is all screwed up?

Again, perhaps the 16 year quest to get vengence of LA is exactly that ... about vengence and not AD?

Wouldn't it be nice to get a response to that question? Instead of a bunch of insults, pointless accusations, non-citations, and insults?

Nope, nothing wrong with that process - its justice.




Yep, clearly the Lance trolls are rational and civilized people engaged in an unemotional search of evidenced based justice (only the evidence has not been released yet).

I mean, when smeone says, "Maybe we should stop speculating and leakinhg things to the press in a trail by public smear," the response is an ever so reasonable, "What!?! YOU are the one speculating, not me!!! ARRRGGHHHH!!!"

Two weeks gentleman. All the insults and silliness in the world won't stop what is coming, and its good to see that the lance trolls are spending the time lining up a bunch of insults and emotional antics rather than anticipating the response ... because anyone who does not join the anger fest without question MUST be attacked.

Thanks once again to all the lance trolls for reminding me of the uncivil antics that have allowed a hyperbolic minority to ruin this forum for everyone.

THis may coem a shock tu youm two but I dont KNot NO what it is that YOURE saying in this quoted post.

 

[Velodude]

Brodeal, where is link that shows Lance accepting sanctions?
He rightfully has said he is the 7 time winner. That is True.

Lance refused to wrestle with the pigs. Big Difference there. Can't you see that?

Maybe you should reread Lance's statement? Reread Lance's Lawyer statement that came out the same evening too.

OneTwoThreeFour FiveSixSeven.
Scoreboard.

USADA is freaking out. They should be.
As long as Lance is listed as the Official Winner of the TdF, USADA freaks.
They need to lobby more in France. More L'equipe stuff. Visit the ASO.

Amended scoreboard whilst you were serving your sanction:

Seven, six, five, four, three, two, one... ZERO!