What's the Status on Armstrong vs. FDA?

[Race Radio]

How many cycling fans... as in those who've watched an event other then the Tour de France?

Probably none.

How many Lance fans? Well that's a different question. Lots of people bought those yellow bracelets. I'm betting a couple end up on the jury.

Do you really think the jury is going to ignore multiple teammates, support staff, and an ex-wife because of a yellow rubber band?

Armstrong's popularity is plummeting. The groupies are jumping ship. Depending on what the charges are it would be a very poor tactical move for Armstrong to take this to a jury.

Armstrong has been very legally active over the years.....he always settles.

 

[TubularBills]

Do you really think the jury is going to ignore multiple teammates, support staff, and an ex-wife because of a yellow rubber band?

Armstrong's popularity is plummeting. The groupies are jumping ship. Depending on what the charges are it would be a very poor tactical move for Armstrong to take this to a jury.

Armstrong has been very legally active over the years.....he always settles.

Curious what a settlement would look like... could be very expensive? & or Plea bargain and sell out the business partners, even then he probably gets a Martha Stewart Fed sponsored Holiday for Fraud, etc.

 

[kurtinsc]

Do you really think the jury is going to ignore multiple teammates, support staff, and an ex-wife because of a yellow rubber band?

Armstrong's popularity is plummeting. The groupies are jumping ship. Depending on what the charges are it would be a very poor tactical move for Armstrong to take this to a jury.

Armstrong has been very legally active over the years.....he always settles.

No, I'm not saying that at all.

But I am saying there will be some who probably WANT Lance to get off. If the evidence is overwhelming, then it won't matter. But it's also unwise to ignore what bias may be present in a jury. We all have our biases and they will impact how we react to evidence that isn't 100% cut and dry.

I'll admit... if I were on a jury for a catholic priest sexual abuse trial, I'm probably going to lean toward thinking the priest is guilty going in. Fair? Probably not... but the bias is there and should be taken into account. Someone who bought a yellow bracelet could easily go in thinking Lance was innocent.

Rarely in cases like this is the evidence overwhelming. If it is, the person who is going to be found guilty won't take it to trial... they'll cut any deal they can to get any leniency they can (and prosecuters often agree to save the expense of a trial). Biases often do play a huge role.

 

[Polish]

How many cycling fans do you really think will end up on the jury? I'm thinking probably none.

Cycling fans? I did not say cycling fans lol.
I said fanboys. Probably some fangirls too.

Hung Jury or Not Guilty when this goes to trial imo.
An indictment does not require as robust a decision as a federal trial does.

 

[yourwelcome]

But I am saying there will be some who probably WANT Lance to get off. If the evidence is overwhelming, then it won't matter. But it's also unwise to ignore what bias may be present in a jury. We all have our biases and they will impact how we react to evidence that isn't 100% cut and dry.

Someone who bought a yellow bracelet could easily go in thinking Lance was innocent.

Before the next conspiracy theory starts, I wasn't aware that LA is such a well-known and loved figure in mainstream USA that any jury is likely to be stacked by supporters. Is he really that well known and loved?

What's the realistic likelihood of the jury featuring even one yellow bracelet buyer? Or of one or two cult members carrying the day against the rest of a jury who don't care a whit about cycling?

If there's decent evidence against him my bet is the jury isn't going to ignore it, but the way this forum will swing if he somehow walks away without any issues is already shaping up. 'Biased jury', 'incompetent investigators', 'corruption', 'backroom deals', 'omerta wins', blah blah. Only the last one is credible imho.

 

[buckwheat]

No, I'm not saying that at all.

But I am saying there will be some who probably WANT Lance to get off. If the evidence is overwhelming, then it won't matter. But it's also unwise to ignore what bias may be present in a jury. We all have our biases and they will impact how we react to evidence that isn't 100% cut and dry.

I'll admit... if I were on a jury for a catholic priest sexual abuse trial, I'm probably going to lean toward thinking the priest is guilty going in. Fair? Probably not... but the bias is there and should be taken into account. Someone who bought a yellow bracelet could easily go in thinking Lance was innocent.

Rarely in cases like this is the evidence overwhelming. If it is, the person who is going to be found guilty won't take it to trial... they'll cut any deal they can to get any leniency they can (and prosecuters often agree to save the expense of a trial). Biases often do play a huge role.

Crazy, but I agree with you a little. As repugnant a figure as he can be, I'm starting to feel a little respect for the guy.

The way some people have been behaving it looks like cycling is to blame and that LA just did what he had to do in a corrupt sport.

There are some dignified people in the whole thing, led by people like Betsy, LeMond, Bassons, Walsh, Tex Pat, Prentiss... but there really aren't many. Even Floyd has redeemed himself somewhat.

I hope the right thing is done for them.

As for the apologists and the cowards. They are probably worse than Armstrong.

 

[BotanyBay]

Testimonies In The Lance Armstrong Doping Crisis

An excellent collection of testimonies and interviews about Lance's reputed doping history:

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/11/8-things-on-lance-armstrong-from-other.html

How does such a beloved, benevolent man accumulate such a unique collection of enemies?

 

[bike_framed]

How does such a beloved, benevolent man accumulate such a unique collection of enemies?

Even the Dalai Lama has enemies. Did I just compare Lance to His Holiness? That's just not right.

Anyway, thanks for the link. Too bad all that wouldn't fit onto a t-shirt. Maybe a series of t-shirts...

 

[Oldman]

Crazy, but I agree with you a little. As repugnant a figure as he can be, I'm starting to feel a little respect for the guy.

The way some people have been behaving it looks like cycling is to blame and that LA just did what he had to do in a corrupt sport.
There are some dignified people in the whole thing, led by people like Betsy, LeMond, Bassons, Walsh, Tex Pat, Prentiss... but there really aren't many. Even Floyd has redeemed himself somewhat.

I hope the right thing is done for them.

As for the apologists and the cowards. They are probably worse than Armstrong.

You can't be serious about "cycling is to blame". While others may have doped to compete; Lance hijacked the entire sport for his own personal satisfaction. If it's shown he paid the UCI to suppress test results, that he may have intimidated witnesses, compelled/facilitated teammates to use PEDs in his service he would be nothing but a egotistical thug. Not much difference between that behavior and a drug cartel chief except Lance hasn't resorted to bumping anyone off.

 

[BotanyBay]

Even the Dalai Lama has enemies. Did I just compare Lance to His Holiness? That's just not right.

Anyway, thanks for the link. Too bad all that wouldn't fit onto a t-shirt. Maybe a series of t-shirts...

A particularly fun read is this:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

 

[Polish]

An excellent collection of testimonies and interviews about Lance's reputed doping history:

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/11/8-things-on-lance-armstrong-from-other.html

How does such a beloved, benevolent man accumulate such a unique collection of enemies?

A particularly fun read is this:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

Holy Crap, Botany. You are coming up with some MAJOR Bombshells!

I have heard some dark rumours of a so-called "Ashendon report".

What are your sources saying about that? Any info? TIA.

 

[BotanyBay]

Holy Crap, Botany. You are coming up with some MAJOR Bombshells!

I have heard some dark rumours of a so-called "Ashendon report".

What are your sources saying about that? Any info? TIA.

I don't know about a "report", but if you look, you can find several situations of him going on-record and commenting about specific data. I expect to see Ashendon's name mentioned quite often in the coming months. Ashendon is fantastic in that he articulates this data in a way that laymen (such as I) can easily understand.

Now, thinking back, I can actually remember once being a Lance fanboy (even though I was still quite interested in the topic of doping, and well-read on the subject). I read "Rough Ride" back in 1996. I honestly thought Lance was everything he purported himself to be. I bought his first book and believed it. And I'm not sure where my opinion changed course. I think it was the early 2000's. If people are waiting for massive alarm bells to ring and announce "He's a Doper!", that's not going to happen. But if you keep reading the testimony, articles, and look at the collected data, it's not hard to conclude that he's dirty dirty dirty.

Lance has (for years) counted on the fact that most people have a short memory. But what he has forgotten is that cycling is filled with engineers, biochemists, doctors and other intelligent minds that are not so easily fooled. These people read, collect, remember and are simply NOT going away. And each year he perpetuates the fraud, more material comes out that people like us collect and remember. With each passing year, the denials get harder and harder to maintain. And I think the year 2011 will be the end of that fraud. It's all starting to crash down.

 

[BotanyBay]

Holy Crap, Botany. You are coming up with some MAJOR Bombshells!

I have heard some dark rumours of a so-called "Ashendon report".

What are your sources saying about that? Any info? TIA.

And by the way, you can verify authenticity of that IM chat yourself. Put an "@aol.com" on the end of Frankie's screen name and you'll have a direct link to him.

 

[BotanyBay]

As for the apologists and the cowards. They are probably worse than Armstrong.

Thank you for saying this. It's easy to calculate Armstrong's motivations for fraud, but what about the enablers and apologists? I can actually have a tick of respect for a guy who is motivated by the cold, hard cash, but I wonder why people who have nothing to gain (emotionally or tangibly) will defend him to the death.

 

[flicker]

Thank you for saying this. It's easy to calculate Armstrong's motivations for fraud, but what about the enablers and apologists? I can actually have a tick of respect for a guy who is motivated by the cold, hard cash, but I wonder why people who have nothing to gain (emotionally or tangibly) will defend him to the death.

We were never Lance fan-boys, and it is fun to listen to certain posters repeat Lance hatred in oh so many ways. It is kind of like tying a lizard to a stake in the hot sun and see it circle the stake until it meets the stake.

The Lance obcsession is a disease for which there is no cure!

Before my kids go off to school we joke and laugh about the sensitive hurt Lance haters. Thank you for the entertainment!

 

[lucybears]

Official: Armstrong investigators in France

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping

 

[hughmoore]

“They can’t just take them with them. There’s all the preparation that needs to be done before that happens,” he said.

Preparation, whats that?

"The French sports daily L’Equipe reported in 2005 that Armstrong’s samples from 1999 contained traces of the banned performance-enhancer EPO."

"the UCI, later cleared Armstrong"


Regards


Hugh

 

[python]

Official: Armstrong investigators in France

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping

this is a powerful news indicating the investigation went international all the way.

popo deposition --> popo raid in italy--> novi scheduled to talk to afld.

The official told The AP that France’s anti-doping agency would share “everything we know, everything we have, in the fridges, in the freezers, everything, everywhere” and is prepared to answer “everything that they ask.

”

i also like that the ap article unlike the nyt and many other papers did not use 'independent' describing the vrijman report but called it 'an investigator mandated by cycling’s international governing body'.

 

[sartain]

Thank you for saying this. It's easy to calculate Armstrong's motivations for fraud, but what about the enablers and apologists? I can actually have a tick of respect for a guy who is motivated by the cold, hard cash, but I wonder why people who have nothing to gain (emotionally or tangibly) will defend him to the death.

MONEY . . .think about how many people in his circle-jerk of "friends", "advisers" and "handlers" have profited in his scam?

 

[thehog]

this is a powerful news indicating the investigation went international all the way.

popo deposition --> popo raid in italy--> novi scheduled to talk to afld.
”

i also like that the ap article unlike the nyt and many other papers did not use 'independent' describing the vrijman report but called it 'an investigator mandated by cycling’s international governing body'.

Now the "chain of custody" will surface.

More here:

The official said he believes that the American delegation comprises US Food and Drug Administration Agent Jeff Novitzky, as well as US federal prosecutor Doug Miller and US Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart.

"They are in France, that is for sure," the official said.

Calls to Tygart's mobile phone went unanswered on Tuesday morning. In a recorded message, Tygart said he was out of the office on business.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/ot...Armstrong-investigators-shift-focus-to-France

 

[wmneff]

Mr.Novitzky's efforts

1)if they haven't nailed LA in the last 10 years,the likelihood of it happening is dropping off...FAST.
2)the likelihood of any significant repercussions is low>"you MUST now return your seven TDF awards!"..............I don't THINK SO.
3)I hate to say it,but Novitzky's tilting at windmills;guaranteed doper,that LA,but tough to prove at this point.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

1)if they haven't nailed LA in the last 10 years,the likelihood of it happening is dropping off...FAST.
2)the likelihood of any significant repercussions is low>"you MUST now return your seven TDF awards!"..............I don't THINK SO.
3)I hate to say it,but Novitzky's tilting at windmills;guaranteed doper,that LA,but tough to prove at this point.

Keep repeating that and you might just believe it, but a more realistic viewpoint would be:

1) This investigation has not been going on 10 years -its a Federal investigation which Lance cannot buy or intimidate his way out of.
2) He might retain his TdF 'victories' but it will be a hollow crown as his legacy will be dead.
3) You think it will be tough for a federal inquiry to prove what you have even acknowledged in your own post?

I would grab that straw with both hands.

 

[veganrob]

The deal with fanboys is this. They will not care if Lance is exposed as the fraud and doper he is. They quite simply love him. Their excuse will now be that everyone doped so he is still the best. They have no interest in cycling or cleaning up the sport.

 

[tubularglue]

just the fact that Novitzky has travelled to foreign shores, and is involved with Interpol leads me to believe the investigations roots runs very deep.

 

[masking_agent]

I just wanted to post here, as I'm curious to know as there have been more events that have taken place. Unfortunately, its still the "his word against mine," circumstantial evidence that we've been hearing about since day one. Since there is no evidence, its right back to this

He has no proof. It's just our word against his, and we like our word. We like where we stand."