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What's this I am hearing about Lance pouring blood down toilets?

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May 1, 2009
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it's funny to read assumptions/accusations/bashing/whining from spectators who are only involved in professional cycling from the couch of our living room when those who are directly involved inside the sports don't even care that much about doping - keep reading and you'll see why i say they don't care

firstly, i think doping inprofessional cycling is not as complicated as we think (but media and we - fans always tend to complicate it), i guess either one of the below would have been the scenario in current proffesional cycling scene, let's go thru them 1 by 1 -

1) ALL TEAMS ARE CLEAN but some riders are doping without the teams' knowledge.
--with my not so smart brain, it tells me if this is the situation, then the Festina case would not have happened, and the same goes for the ongoing T-Mobile investigation. So this is a very unlikely situation in the peloton, not all teams are clean.

which means maybe

2) SOME TEAMS & RIDERS are clean, some are organized dopers. which will eventually lead those clean cyclists to join the clean teams and dopers to the doping teams. a doping cyclist won't survive in a clean team and vice versa.
-- so, if you are a clean team(rider) and you are losing to a doping team(rider), WILL YOU KEEP QUIET? we are talking about pro cycling, about sponsorship & prize money, about one's rice bowl.

if it was any of us here, we would have gone all the way to do all we can to expose and nail those who are putting sand in our rice bowl so that we can eliminate these doping riders/teams. less competition and clean competition means more money. BUT I can't think of a single reason why a clean rider/team (if they do exist) would not do this. Don't tell me they are afraid to do it.

so, this leads to my third and final assumption

3) you have ALL TEAMS & RIDERS INVOLVED IN ORGANIZED DOPING but riders are supposed to keep quiet to keep their rice bowl and they do all they can to avoid getting caught by the anti-doping authorities. of course as a rider you can choose to either ride clean or dope, but whatever choice you made, you have to play by the rules - no complaints.

if you choose to ride clean even tho you know dopers exist, you can't complaint even if you can't beat the dopers. if you do, you're OUT, no team will hire you because pro cycling is a big ring of dopers competing.

and if you choose to dope, once you are caught, you're out of the game and will be a labeled and convicted doper and you have to play by the rules - serve your time, and try your luck 2 years later finding a new team to ride for.

-- i believe this is the most likely scenario and in fact THE scenario now in pro cycling. they are not only competing in races but also competing in doping methods/technology. if that's the case and ALL the pro cyclists know the rule of this game and they agree to play by it, why are we spectators whining like Greg LeMond did? Let them dope and race, and we just watch the races. if anyone get caught, serve the ban. If you don't get caught like lance armstrong, then you are "CLEAN" the champ.

but i know many of you heremay not agree with me :)

or maybe any of you have a better assumption?
 
Help me out on this. How would the clean teams can go after the doping teams? What legal means to they have to go after them? In fact I remember a while ago the last director of the Tour de France judging their country men riders as being whiners because they don't train hard enough. Even though their riders kept complaining about the two speeds.

I have to accept that point number three could be a possibility and I think that would be a very bad scenario.
 
Apr 28, 2009
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w777w

it's certainly rather presumptious of you to state :

" from spectators who are only involved in professional cycling from the couch of our living room when those who are directly involved inside the sports don't even care that much about doping "

You have no basis to make such an ignorant sweeping statement. I can identify several person's who post on this forum, whom have a background within professional cycling & can communicate, with a degree of authority, at the highest level.

The abuse of doping in professional cycling is rather complex.
For riders caught with a "simple" product, these "positives" tend to occur, "lower down the tree" and are fairly clear cut.

Methods undertaken to evade doping convictions, or simply being caught in possession, are deviously complex.
In some situations, these have included use of foreign diplomatic status, co-ordinated visits by couriers, training camps in locations where access is difficult, avoiding mainstream events, where micro dosing might be detected, blank TUE forms carried by riders, unstamped Bio Passports, just to name a few.

Your " points" are replied as follows :

1. as agreed

2. you state "BUT I can't think of a single reason why a clean rider/team (if they do exist) would not do this. Don't tell me they are afraid to do it."

ok i won't.
But do not under estimate the "unwritten politics" of professional cycling.
It is that far reaching, and it is, that dangerous.
A sport ruled by "connected mates" where networks exist, which can destroy all dreams before they have started, or concluded.
So to dismiss any comment that a team/rider, might not be willing to speak out, fails to comprehend the reality. The comment of a sofa laden expert perhaps?


3. Your 3rd assumption has a fair degree of truth, however for you to ask "why are we spectators whining like Greg LeMond did? Let them dope and race, and we just watch the races" - leaving aside the sporting ethics, why would anyone wish to be defrauded by watching professional cycling, under the suggestion you make ?
And why, according to your comment, is Greg LeMond "whining" ?

Because he dared to speak out against what most consider "subjects we should never speak of " ?
For criticising several prominent US cyclists ?
or simply because it's Greg LeMond and the guy deserves it because he's a Yank ?

Lets hear it.
 
vv777vv said:
-- i believe this is the most likely scenario and in fact THE scenario now in pro cycling. they are not only competing in races but also competing in doping methods/technology. if that's the case and ALL the pro cyclists know the rule of this game and they agree to play by it, why are we spectators whining like Greg LeMond did? Let them dope and race, and we just watch the races. if anyone get caught, serve the ban. If you don't get caught like lance armstrong, then you are "CLEAN" the champ.

But why should we as fans have to watch a spectacle that has been openly manipulated by drugs? I personally want to watch an authentic race.

Second, what of riders who WANT to compete clean? Why should they be forced out of the sport for choosing not to abuse their bodies when the very reason many people first start cycling is for the health benefits? What of the long-term health consequences to the riders of doping? These are human beings, not race horses - frankly it seems that many people are more passionate advocates of humane treatment of race horses than they are of cyclists!

What does it say about our society and ourselves if we decide that it should be legal for these athletes to destroy their bodies and shorten their lives just for our viewing pleasure?

The Roman emperor Constantine banned gladiatorial competition in 325 AD. This was an ethical decision because human death matches are of course barbaric. I think it would also be unethical for a society to allow the abuse of young athletes with drugs just for its own entertainment. And why? If they are all clean you still get to see great racing and great drama.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
The Roman emperor Constantine banned gladiatorial competition in 325 AD. This was an ethical decision because human death matches are of course barbaric. I think it would also be unethical for a society to allow the abuse of young athletes with drugs just for its own entertainment. And why? If they are all clean you still get to see great racing and great drama.

Great point! I'd never considered it from that perspective...
 
BroDeal - You left out former USPS chief soigner Emma O'Reilly's testimony, and the lawsuit(s) between Lance and former USPS trainer Mike Anderson. You left out more than that actually, but of course you knew that and probably only stopped for brevity's sake.

As for LeMond's comments. Greg is correct in stating that the sport is mired in doping; an assertion has been proven beyond all doubt. Does anyone really dispute this? Why anyone would call this "whining", or actually deny that the doping issue is a problem is beyond comprehension, upsetting actually.

I won't bother getting into why riders shouldn't be allowed to dope.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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In all honesty the playing field would be more level if there was no controls and everyone could jack EPO all the way to 55-60% crit.

Upon the advent of the epo test in 2001 the big fish all started blood doping with their own blood, but some could not do this and so the rode without on just HGH, insulin, etc. Yes they could still dope with epo but as the test became more sensitive it got harder and harder. And now I dont think anybody at the top is trying to use Dynepo (human identical.) They have to autologous blood dope and this takes connections.

The passport might have F-d it up even more.

I honestly now believe Lemond would have won 5 more Tours if he had just used EPO to a 50% crit... Its too bad and after 91' he knew damn well what they were on and he could have done the deed... If he could go back he would do it I think, thats what Realgains told me. He said in an interview he wouldnt do it though. Lemond even said he knew some were on epo before 91' so he knew what was going on I think.

I find it hard to believe Lemond was totally clean too but he wouldnt do epo and thats strange for somebody who has done drugs in the past to win. Not using the super-drug would make no since.
 
I dont think it is widely accepted to speak out about other riders doping just yet. Look at what happened to Filippo Simeoni after his run in with Lance, is there anybody out there who doesnt believe that the Simeoni testimony against Ferrari was not correct.

I personally believe the only reason Flaminia were not invited to the Giro was to avoid any possible clashes with Lance. Flaminia are not a great team but to select Xacebo-Galicia, ahead of an Italian team containing the Italian champion is scandalous.

Then take the case of Jorg Jaksche, of those involved in Operation Puerto, he was the only one to admit it and speak about the general doping problem in cycling. He never got a team after that, Basso & Scarponi on the other hand were accepted back into the fold because they never gave much details on anything. Why would you speak out if this is the result.

Until the majority of top riders are clean, open and willing to speak openly about doping, nothing will ever change. No amount of small time riders speaking out will change anything, they just sound like bitter losers and will be potrayed as bitter losers with an agenda by the top guys. Just like Lance done with anybody who openly talks abut doping.

I believe most pros know who is doing what but without definite proof, it is a bit difficult to definitively accuse people and not look bad. Look how much evidence there is against Lance which many people feel is enough to not believe in him, but there is nothing concrete against him so he can bat all the accusations away.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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^^ It is the way of the Omerta. I think V7 has to grasp this concept first as otherwise his/her logic is flawed.

Oh by the way, we couch bashers tend to use 'Spitting In the Soup', but 'Sand in the rice bowl' also works - we get your drift.
 
May 1, 2009
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lots of responds :)

guys & gals, first of all they're just my assumptions - i could be wrong, that's why i'm eager to hear from you guys what do you think. but from the feedbacks, it seems like my thirs assumption is the most likely.

PuncturedTyre - my appologies for the ignorant sweeping statement. i know there are some who are directly involved here - you can see from the postings and you can surely differenciate them. and about Greg Lemond, he just did it too much unneccesarily until it sounds like whining rather than proving his effort to clean up the sports, at least that's how it sounds like to me. i could be wrong tho.

If the Omerta exists - which might means my second assumption could be true, then those who are clean (if they do exist) should either be a man, step up and do something OR leave the sport, or at least stop being a pro, keep it amateur if you still love cycling. A clean guy in a doping team could gather all proofs and nail em. So, if the "dark force"/Omerta is so powerful that no one dare to go against them, i guess it's not only the teams that are not clean but even the authorities - which means cycling is manipulated by drugs.

and to you guys who asked why should we watch a sports manipulated by drugs - well, we all know it, we can't change it, so i think it's a waste of time trying to link/accuse/bash a rider/team from time to time when they're not yet caught & proven a doper.

so i guess we either keep watching it or we stop watching it :) but don't tell my soccer, football, baseball or any other sport is any cleaner than cycling. cycling is just always the target victim when it comes to doping in sports - do we get as much respond from the fans of the other sports when the latest names from the 08 Olympics were annouced? I dont think so. Does that mean the fans of those other sports care less about the sports they watch/love than us cyclists? I don't know. You guys tell me.
 
May 1, 2009
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that's the point, i'm not pro lance but i'm sick and tired when every other thread in CN regardless of the topic will somehow have a few postings implicating that lance is doping and that it's like he's the big bully in cycling.

i mean com'on, they're all grown ups in the peloton, if you really have proofs about lance doping, show it. what can he do? harm you???? or your family? sometimes it's sickening that ppl are putting the blame on him. you have had sooooo many of his ex lieutenants that left him because they can't get along with him in the team - and some of this guys eventually get caught doping - why don't they just drag him along? they had 3 years during his retirement when he's no longer the accused bully in cycling to do that. but even landis (or perhaps hamilton) who maybe hated him so much didn't do anything when they had the oppurtunities - the Omerta?? sounds like bullxxxx to me.

so i would still not classify him a doper until they have solid proof to nail him. maybe he's just the best doper - and if he is, i guess he deserves all the credit for his achievements (both in cycling and doping + raising cancer awareness).
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
But why should we as fans have to watch a spectacle that has been openly manipulated by drugs? I personally want to watch an authentic race.
.

I agree - let's watch Formula 1... oh wait. Ok, let's watch the Olympic marathon... oh wait. Hey, how about the Kentucky Derby... oh wait. I got it! 100m dash! Oh, wait.

CAT V industrial park crit? Ahhhh, there we go! Someone call Versus.

(Bike Centric - I actually support your statement, but, man, the sports world is a drugs/cheating landmine, period)
 
53x11 in DC said:
I agree - let's watch Formula 1... oh wait. Ok, let's watch the Olympic marathon... oh wait. Hey, how about the Kentucky Derby... oh wait. I got it! 100m dash! Oh, wait.

CAT V industrial park crit? Ahhhh, there we go! Someone call Versus.

(Bike Centric - I actually support your statement, but, man, the sports world is a drugs landmine, period)

You're right of course. The other sports I watch the most are NFL football and NHL hockey and trust me, I have no illusions. Those leagues barely even test at all.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Reality is better than fiction.

It sells!

1.) FIRST, Lance announces he is coming back, THEN he smashes a bunch of juiced up pro mountain bikers in a BIG RACE that was over 100 miles long at high altitude, all as a 37 year old!

2.) THEN, Lemond shows up at Lance's media party and lays out 100% of what anybody would need to stop Lance or bust Lance, and the cycling world ingnores it in confusion!

3.) Taylor Phinney upon joining Lance's team, SMASHES the junior 4,000 meters record and Eddie B says quote, "Taylor is better than both his parents combined!" And both Davis and Connie were on that 1984 USA blood doping team. Blahahahahah!!!!!!

4.) Simeoni, who testified AGAINST the biggest doping doctor in history, Michele Ferrari; is BOOTED from the Giro because he rode to slow in the tune up races and finished 30 minutes behind!

5.) THEN, the bio-passport reveals no positives yet, and its revealed to be a crock anyways because it doesnt take total blood volume into account! And then also there's the fact that if 20 talented Tour guys can blood dope nobody can even keep up clean!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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6.) Former 'Half a man' lance's little boys learn how to swim again and he's having another kid from natural conception. Now that's a miracle.

Moving on to fiction here...

7.) Signs deal with Calvin Klein to release new fragrance titled 'Ego'. Marketing campaign will feature the infamous 'The Look'. Who needs Blue Steel??
 
Mar 10, 2009
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unsheath said:
6.) Former 'Half a man' lance's little boys learn how to swim again and he's having another kid from natural conception. Now that's a miracle.

Moving on to fiction here...

7.) Signs deal with Calvin Klein to release new fragrance titled 'Ego'. Marketing campaign will feature the infamous 'The Look'. Who needs Blue Steel??

I thought he would be doing a photoshoot in CK's undies with 'extra volume/padding'.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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unsheath said:
6.) Former 'Half a man' lance's little boys learn how to swim again and he's having another kid from natural conception. Now that's a miracle.

Moving on to fiction here...

7.) Signs deal with Calvin Klein to release new fragrance titled 'Ego'. Marketing campaign will feature the infamous 'The Look'. Who needs Blue Steel??

8.) Johan is caught with 20 units of blood in the fridge, enough for the whole team time trial!
 

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