::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[Bustedknuckle]

Couldn't agree more.

Please understand Bustedknuckle, when this conversation started about KHS I was actually sympathetic to the problems you had with them, and tried my best to give a clear and concise explanation of how they operate. I just didn't care for the "For KHS, either carry and distribute Sapim or give it up" comment. Hopefully I cleared up some misconceptions about how KHS does business. I want to be as honest and succinct as possible when it comes to this stuff, because it's my livelihood.

OK, still can't get Sapim spokes tho. My job too altho it doesn't describe my survival. More of a labor of 'like'. I do build about 500 wheels per year tho. I'd love to see as non mailorder place say they sell that many Kry-for-me-sirium, HED, Fulcrum Campag, shimano, Zipp or anything other wheelouttaabox.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

My job too altho it doesn't describe my survival. More of a labor of 'like'.

I like that. This is the only job I'd do for free. When I get up in the morning I feel like a kid going to play in a sandbox, doesn't feel like work at all. Consider us the lucky ones.

 

[krebs303]

With motorcycle wheels the rims are for the most part dimpled and 36 or 40 hole. We would stock blank rims and custom drill per application. Some bikes would require quite a bit of offset. We would cross drill the rim. The spokes from the right hand side of the hub would lace the the dimples on the left hand side of the rim to achieve equal spoke tension. Is there anything similar in bicycle wheels? Does any one make a dimpled bike rim?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

With motorcycle wheels the rims are for the most part dimpled and 36 or 40 hole. We would stock blank rims and custom drill per application. Some bikes would require quite a bit of offset. We would cross drill the rim. The spokes from the right hand side of the hub would lace the the dimples on the left hand side of the rim to achieve equal spoke tension. Is there anything similar in bicycle wheels? Does any one make a dimpled bike rim?

Sounds like you were a custom wheel mfg. No dimpled rims as far as I know. Do the dimples signify where to drill on a blank motorcycle rim? Velocity makes two offset drilled rims that are used for rear dished wheels. Arrowhead O/C and the Synergy O/C.

I do like the idea of offset drilling, but Velocity only uses eyelets in the Razor. Eyeltted rims make for a stronger, more durable wheel set than an offset drilled rim with no eyelets. Now if the Synergy O/C was manufactured with eyelets, that would be something.

 

[Bobby700c]

What do you guys think about this:

http://www.eastonbike.com/PRODUCTS/TECHNOLOGY/tech_t3.html

Does this actually benefit durability as claimed? I can't think of any other reason to use this type of spoke, but then I don't know a great deal about wheels.

 

[trompe le monde]

Hello all,

I've never built a set of hand made wheels, but am entertaining the idea of doing so, that is buying a set of either Ambrosio Nemesis or F20s rims, a pair of DT Swiss hubs and ideally lacing them with some CX Ray spokes. I realize that there are a few thorny parameters, that is getting the right spoke length down and for me, getting the wheel in true without any specialized tools such as a tension meter or a truing stand. My simple question is, am I better off finding a reputable wheel builder to do this or should I attempt to build these on my own despite the lack of preferred wheel building tools?

Thanks in advance for any response.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

What do you guys think about this:

http://www.eastonbike.com/PRODUCTS/TECHNOLOGY/tech_t3.html

Does this actually benefit durability as claimed? I can't think of any other reason to use this type of spoke, but then I don't know a great deal about wheels.

Well, I have repaired enough of these to know it indeed 'doesn't eliminate the problem'. PITA to fix, BTW. Rim deformity or damage break spokes far more than spoke design. Erratic tension due to the above...think of bending a metal coat hanger back and forth, back and forth...break. Same for spoke on a wheel that has too little tension due to a crappy build or having the rim get wacked.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Hello all,

I've never built a set of hand made wheels, but am entertaining the idea of doing so, that is buying a set of either Ambrosio Nemesis or F20s rims, a pair of DT Swiss hubs and ideally lacing them with some CX Ray spokes. I realize that there are a few thorny parameters, that is getting the right spoke length down and for me, getting the wheel in true without any specialized tools such as a tension meter or a truing stand. My simple question is, am I better off finding a reputable wheel builder to do this or should I attempt to build these on my own despite the lack of preferred wheel building tools?

Thanks in advance for any response.

Many of us started by building our own set of wheels. Perhaps getting some less expensive stuff to start on...and if you are going to 'build wheels' a truing stand, dishing tool and proper spoke wrench are key.

PLUS CX-Rays are big $ and provide small 'advantages' IMHO. Don't do the 3 strikes and you are out scenario. Thin spokes, light rim and low spoke count.

 

[Bobby700c]

Many of us started by building our own set of wheels. Perhaps getting some less expensive stuff to start on...and if you are going to 'build wheels' a truing stand, dishing tool and proper spoke wrench are key.

PLUS CX-Rays are big $ and provide small 'advantages' IMHO. Don't do the 3 strikes and you are out scenario. Thin spokes, light rim and low spoke count.

Having built a grand total of one wheel, without using a truing stand, I wouldn't be able to comment on how useful they are, but I couldn't really stomach the cost of buying one, as I wasn't sure if I would go on to build more than one wheel. I just put the wheel in my frame once all the spokes were laced, and trued it that way. Crude, but it did the job.

 

[Bobby700c]

Well, I have repaired enough of these to know it indeed 'doesn't eliminate the problem'. PITA to fix, BTW. Rim deformity or damage break spokes far more than spoke design. Erratic tension due to the above...think of bending a metal coat hanger back and forth, back and forth...break. Same for spoke on a wheel that has too little tension due to a crappy build or having the rim get wacked.

I don't doubt that it is possible to build a bad wheel using this spoke and hub type - I was just wondering if there were any advantages at all. From your response, I guess that's a 'no' in your experience. I ask partly because I own a set of Eastons with this spoke type, and they have stayed stiff and true since I started riding them (I haven't got any personal interest in Easton BTW!). I have had problems with the cassette sprockets digging into the freehub, but that's another matter (no doubt due to my outrageous power output).

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

An excerpt from a Velocity Nation interview with Rich Sawiris about Sapim CX-Ray spokes.

AS: Everyone loves CX-Rays. Are they really that much better, and what makes them better?

RS: The great thing about CX-Rays, is fatigue resistance. Sapim claims their fatigue life numbers are three times that of their other spokes like Sapim Race or Laser. The number one enemy of your wheel is fatigue of the spokes. If nothing else happens like a crash, ultimately your spokes will start to break. If they can extend fatigue life by three times, it makes it extremely appealing to anybody who's building a wheel, especially a builder like me who wants his wheels to last a long time.

In addition, they look sexy 'cause they're bladed, and they’re about 27% lighter than what you'd get out of a 14/15 double butted spoke. You can almost put them up against a Revolution or a Laser, so you get the weight advantage of the really light double butted spoke, you get the sexy look of a bladed spoke, you get better fatigue life, and they're the only bladed spoke you can get in super short lengths. We use them for pro BMX guys, and we get them down to 186 mm, so we can also use them in Zipp 1080's. They're pretty hot.

AS: And of course, being bladed, there's no windup.

RS: From the production side, bladed is always a dream. You don't have to pinch the spoke and have a really good subjective feel for how much windup you're doing in the forward direction, then the reverse direction, then have to manually unwind each one. You can just hold it in place, and when it's done it's done.

Another "claim" that's not entirely untrue, but you'll notice that Rich didn't push that bogus argument that bladed spokes will make for a faster wheel, instead called them "sexy". I'd have to agree. It's no wonder why the majority of the pro builders and racers use 'em, the sex appeal of a spoke, who wudda thunk?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

An excerpt from a Velocity Nation interview with Rich Sawiris about Sapim CX-Ray spokes.

AS: Everyone loves CX-Rays. Are they really that much better, and what makes them better?

RS: The great thing about CX-Rays, is fatigue resistance. Sapim claims their fatigue life numbers are three times that of their other spokes like Sapim Race or Laser. The number one enemy of your wheel is fatigue of the spokes. If nothing else happens like a crash, ultimately your spokes will start to break. If they can extend fatigue life by three times, it makes it extremely appealing to anybody who's building a wheel, especially a builder like me who wants his wheels to last a long time.

In addition, they look sexy 'cause they're bladed, and they’re about 27% lighter than what you'd get out of a 14/15 double butted spoke. You can almost put them up against a Revolution or a Laser, so you get the weight advantage of the really light double butted spoke, you get the sexy look of a bladed spoke, you get better fatigue life, and they're the only bladed spoke you can get in super short lengths. We use them for pro BMX guys, and we get them down to 186 mm, so we can also use them in Zipp 1080's. They're pretty hot.

AS: And of course, being bladed, there's no windup.

RS: From the production side, bladed is always a dream. You don't have to pinch the spoke and have a really good subjective feel for how much windup you're doing in the forward direction, then the reverse direction, then have to manually unwind each one. You can just hold it in place, and when it's done it's done.

Another "claim" that's not entirely untrue, but you'll notice that Rich didn't push that bogus argument that bladed spokes will make for a faster wheel, instead called them "sexy". I'd have to agree. It's no wonder why the majority of the pro builders and racers use 'em, the sex appeal of a spoke, who wudda thunk?

So what about CX-rays make their fatigue life 3 times that of Race spokes? Material, manufacturing, shape? Those properties couldn't be introduced into a DB spoke? I would also like to see a chart about stiffness. ARE CX-RAYS not as stiff in terms of deflection, when compared to a round, fatter spoke?

If they are not, then they don't support the rim as well as a round spoke, which means the rim has more of a tendency to get 'deformed' which also breaks spokes.

Asking, cuz I don't know.

'Pro' builder meaning those that build for teams, not for customers? I'm guessing? Or in Europe?

 

[trompe le monde]

Many of us started by building our own set of wheels. Perhaps getting some less expensive stuff to start on...and if you are going to 'build wheels' a truing stand, dishing tool and proper spoke wrench are key.

PLUS CX-Rays are big $ and provide small 'advantages' IMHO. Don't do the 3 strikes and you are out scenario. Thin spokes, light rim and low spoke count.

Thanks for the reply, appreciate it. My chief concern is that if I don't have the proper tools to complete the project, mainly a truing stand and tensionometer, that I won't be able to produce a wheel that rolls true. My plan is that I'm mainly working from the rims out, as I want to build a set of handmades that are tubulars, hence the choice of Ambrosio's. As for the hubs and spokes, the choices I mentioned were perhaps ideal choices though choices I haven't necessarily etched in stone.

Best way to learn is to try I guess.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

So what about CX-rays make their fatigue life 3 times that of Race spokes? Material, manufacturing, shape? Those properties couldn't be introduced into a DB spoke? I would also like to see a chart about stiffness. ARE CX-RAYS not as stiff in terms of deflection, when compared to a round, fatter spoke?

If they are not, then they don't support the rim as well as a round spoke, which means the rim has more of a tendency to get 'deformed' which also breaks spokes.

Asking, cuz I don't know.

'Pro' builder meaning those that build for teams, not for customers? I'm guessing? Or in Europe?

I honestly don't know about the metallurgical aspects and design questions you have. You'd be better off asking Sapim directly. All I know is that I trust them, and have been using them for years.

The CX-Ray is almost always built with deep section carbon rims, since the spoke is shorter it translates to slightly stiffer build. If they weren't stiff enough, racers would be using something else and you wouldn't see SAP engraved on the spokes of the majority of top end race wheels on the market. If the rim is shallower, like in the Spring Classics, they're using normal double butted round profile for the longer lengths required on those wheels for the rough stuff. Though I've built a lot of Classics wheels with CX-Rays and they're plenty stiff, even at the longer lengths.

'Pro' builder = Mfg's and shops that only deal in wheels for aftermarket sales to the consumer and team support, Easton, HED, Zipp, Wheelbuilder.com, etc, etc...

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I honestly don't know about the metallurgical aspects and design questions you have. You'd be better off asking Sapim directly. All I know is that I trust them, and have been using them for years.

The CX-Ray is almost always built with deep section carbon rims, since the spoke is shorter it translates to slightly stiffer build. If they weren't stiff enough, racers would be using something else and you wouldn't see SAP engraved on the spokes of the majority of top end race wheels on the market. If the rim is shallower, like in the Spring Classics, they're using normal double butted round profile for the longer lengths required on those wheels for the rough stuff. Though I've built a lot of Classics wheels with CX-Rays and they're plenty stiff, even at the longer lengths.

'Pro' builder = Mfg's and shops that only deal in wheels for aftermarket sales to the consumer and team support, Easton, HED, Zipp, Wheelbuilder.com, etc, etc...

Guess I'm not a 'pro' builder then.

 

[badboyberty]

So what about CX-rays make their fatigue life 3 times that of Race spokes? Material, manufacturing, shape? Those properties couldn't be introduced into a DB spoke?

One of the Australian DT-Swiss wholesalers told me that Revolutions are DT's most resilient spokes because of the extra reworking during manufacture (making 29'er wheels for a weight weenie you have to ask these questions). I'd assume Sapim will say the same thing about CX-Rays. I also imagine that due to the profile of a bladed spoke the spokes are stronger in the direction most loads are passed through them (forwards in propulsion and backwards under braking) while gaining more give when subjected to side loads.

Total speculation on my part so please feel free to shoot me down, I might learn sumthing.

 

[L29205]

Getting ready to build a wheel, reusing a rear hub. Opinions would you reverse the spoke head pattern from the first build (ie if it the spoke head was facing out re-lace with the head facing in on rebuild)? Keep it the same? Pulses or minuses on either option?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Getting ready to build a wheel, reusing a rear hub. Opinions would you reverse the spoke head pattern from the first build (ie if it the spoke head was facing out re-lace with the head facing in on rebuild)? Keep it the same? Pulses or minuses on either option?

Keep it the same. If you change the pattern that weakens the hub flange. It's almost like thinking of it in terms of muscle memory when it comes to the strength of the hub. The stresses of a wheel deform the flange and doesn't spring back to it's original state because the nature of aluminum before and after you put a load on it. In other words, you don't want to install a leading spoke where a trailing spoke once was.

 

[L29205]

Keep it the same. If you change the pattern that weakens the hub flange. It's almost like thinking of it in terms of muscle memory when it comes to the strength of the hub. The stresses of a wheel deform the flange and doesn't spring back to it's original state because the nature of aluminum before and after you put a load on it. In other words, you don't want to install a leading spoke where a trailing spoke once was.

I agree that is what I have done the past but I have heard the reverse. So I thought I would put it out there for debate. The reverse argument has been among other things it allows the new spoke head to seat better, pulling towards a single angle a build again and again will make the flange weaker. The other side is you are treating the hub flange like a paper clip bend it back in forth enough it will break.

Just food for thought (not thought for food)

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I agree that is what I have done the past but I have heard the reverse. So I thought I would put it out there for debate. The reverse argument has been among other things it allows the new spoke head to seat better, pulling towards a single angle a build again and again will make the flange weaker. The other side is you are treating the hub flange like a paper clip bend it back in forth enough it will break.

It will make for a weaker wheel and cut the life span of a perfectly good hub. If hubs were made of steel, the reverse argument would be valid. But since we're dealing with aluminum this is how I highly recommend you do it. I've never heard of a reputable wheel builder reversing the pattern on a rebuild.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

This is a Campy Gran Sport hub from the late 70's or early 80's that has been rebuilt a few times by using the exact same pattern every time, you can see it on the wear marks of the spoke holes that the pattern was never reversed. If it had been, and given that these older hubs were made from a softer alloy, it wouldn't be in as good shape as you see here. Sure the spoke holes look kinda rough, but still very buildable if I keep it the same pattern.

 

[L29205]

It will make for a weaker wheel and cut the life span of a perfectly good hub. If hubs were made of steel, the reverse argument would be valid. But since we're dealing with aluminum this is how I highly recommend you do it. I've never heard of a reputable wheel builder reversing the pattern on a rebuild.

Thanks, it was the pattern I was going to go with. I am letting my 11 year old lace up his first set of wheels. A used 9 speed Dura-ace hub with an NOS Mavic Mach 2 CD (hard to screw that up). We went through how to calculate spoke length, why there is a dish on a rear wheel, and how tension effect all aspects of the wheel. I didn't want my predispositions on how to build wheels be a basis for a misconception on how thing should be done. Bad habits start early.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks, it was the pattern I was going to go with. I am letting my 11 year old lace up his first set of wheels. A used 9 speed Dura-ace hub with an NOS Mavic Mach 2 CD (hard to screw that up). We went through how to calculate spoke length, why there is a dish on a rear wheel, and how tension effect all aspects of the wheel. I didn't want my predispositions on how to build wheels be a basis for a misconception on how thing should be done. Bad habits start early.

That's soooooo COOL!

 

[L29205]

That's soooooo COOL!

I just hope that wheel building does not go away. It seems that most bike shops want to sell the wheel of the day from the manufacturer of the day. Still figuring out how to get bench time to finish up this up.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I just hope that wheel building does not go away. It seems that most bike shops want to sell the wheel of the day from the manufacturer of the day. Still figuring out how to get bench time to finish up this up.

Keep keeping youngsters interested and it won't go away. But it is NOT as common as it once was. BTW-build the hub the same as last time or you risk pulling a chunk out of the hub flange.