::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[M Sport]

Thanks for the advice Giuseppe and Busted Knuckle, I'm pretty easy on the gear in general for a rider my weight and I always run 25mm tyres training so I guess that makes it a bit easier on the wheels as well.

 

[Ruby60]

Wheel Rebuild

I need to rebuild my PowerTap rear wheel. I was sprinting through an intersection and hit a pot hole (didn't see it...) HARD. Rim goes out of round and out of true, AND rim side mildly crushed inward. Since this is my PT wheel I did some work to make it rideable: working judiciously, I tapped out the braking sidewall so it's not too bad, then retrued the wheel, so overall it's not too bad and is rideable. But it's time to rebuild.
This wheel has been in constant use for at least 7 years... maybe 10 years!! Training and racing. I am 98 Kilos (on a good day) and consider myself to be a Crit rider and sprinter. I attribute it's longetivity to the following: 14g, 3X, brass nips, and laced to a 32 hole Velocity Aerohead OC rim.
Ok enough history.
I have a small stock of regular (not OC) Aerohead rims I could use, but I'm leaning towards getting another Aerohead OC rim. I would still build it with 14g straight, 3X and brass nips unless you pros would suggest something other.
So what would your opinion be concerning the OC vs the normal rim, and what spoke tensions would you recommend? ( I use a wheelsmith tensiometer)
Sorry for the long read...
Thanks

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I need to rebuild my PowerTap rear wheel. I was sprinting through an intersection and hit a pot hole (didn't see it...) HARD. Rim goes out of round and out of true, AND rim side mildly crushed inward. Since this is my PT wheel I did some work to make it rideable: working judiciously, I tapped out the braking sidewall so it's not too bad, then retrued the wheel, so overall it's not too bad and is rideable. But it's time to rebuild.
This wheel has been in constant use for at least 7 years... maybe 10 years!! Training and racing. I am 98 Kilos (on a good day) and consider myself to be a Crit rider and sprinter. I attribute it's longetivity to the following: 14g, 3X, brass nips, and laced to a 32 hole Velocity Aerohead OC rim.
Ok enough history.
I have a small stock of regular (not OC) Aerohead rims I could use, but I'm leaning towards getting another Aerohead OC rim. I would still build it with 14g straight, 3X and brass nips unless you pros would suggest something other.
So what would your opinion be concerning the OC vs the normal rim, and what spoke tensions would you recommend? ( I use a wheelsmith tensiometer)
Sorry for the long read...
Thanks

Aerohead OC is out of production, but there are still a few 'out there' Replaced by A23 OC, just coming into the system now.

If the older OC worked...also look at DT 440, another OC rim coming into the US.

http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Rims-Road/RR-440-asymmetric

I think OC is a good idea for you, I would use double butted spokes tho-makes for a more durable wheel altho the last one sounds like it held up just fine.

 

[Ruby60]

Thanks BK.
Just checked the Velocity site... yup, no Aerohead OC's, but as you suggested, the A23 OC's look good. And the DT's... I will definitely check into those...I like the idea of eyeleted rims, although I haven't had any issues with the Aeroheads developing cracks around the holes.
Which rim would be your preference?
Thanks again.

 

[Jukebox]

Thanks BK.
Just checked the Velocity site... yup, no Aerohead OC's, but as you suggested, the A23 OC's look good. And the DT's... I will definitely check into those...I like the idea of eyeleted rims, although I haven't had any issues with the Aeroheads developing cracks around the holes.
Which rim would be your preference?
Thanks again.

The A23 is wider, which is nice because it spreads the tire out a bit more which helps handling. Eyelets certainly are nice, but as you mentioned Velocity rims are plenty strong without them.

Personally Id go with the A23, but neither is likely to be a bad choice.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Thanks BK.
Just checked the Velocity site... yup, no Aerohead OC's, but as you suggested, the A23 OC's look good. And the DT's... I will definitely check into those...I like the idea of eyeleted rims, although I haven't had any issues with the Aeroheads developing cracks around the holes.
Which rim would be your preference?
Thanks again.

I'm a big fan of DT. The roundest, flatest rims I have ever seen in my 27 years of wheelbuilding. I'm not a fanboy of wider rims either. They can make a small difference, I guess, but also create some problems with some frames and forks and aftermarket brakes due to their 23mm width.

I would personally choose the DT 440 for you, OC rear. double butted spokes like DT Comp or Sapim race..brass nipples. 3 cross all around.

 

[Ruby60]

Thanks JB and BK. I'll check with my LBS for rim availability and costs. Will definitely use double butted spokes, brass nips, and 3X.

 

[biker jk]

I would appreciate any thoughts as to what may be the cause of a problem I'm having with a rear wheel. The rim was replaced and re-laced with the same spokes and hub. After around 200km of riding, a pinging sound started to occur when under load (climbing). It's not a high pitched sound but somewhat dull.

Anyway, I went back to the builder and he suggested the spokes may need a drop of oil where they cross (built two cross with DT Aerolite spokes, 24 spokes and Kinlin XR-270 rim). I had checked the spoke tension with my Park gauge and the non-drive side spokes seemed very low (not even registering on the gauge, i.e. zero, although with tyres mounted, while the drive side was between an 11 and 12 which equated to around 100kgf). I mentioned to the builder that the non-drive side spokes seemed to have little tension and he tightened then a little.

I put the wheel back on the bike and oiled the spoke cross-over points and it was fine for another 200km then today the pinging was back. Non-drive side spoke tension is 2-3 on the Park gauge and a few spokes are still close to zero. So, could the pinging be caused by too low spoke tension on the non-drive side? The wheel is still true.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I would appreciate any thoughts as to what may be the cause of a problem I'm having with a rear wheel. The rim was replaced and re-laced with the same spokes and hub. After around 200km of riding, a pinging sound started to occur when under load (climbing). It's not a high pitched sound but somewhat dull.

Anyway, I went back to the builder and he suggested the spokes may need a drop of oil where they cross (built two cross with DT Aerolite spokes, 24 spokes and Kinlin XR-270 rim). I had checked the spoke tension with my Park gauge and the non-drive side spokes seemed very low (not even registering on the gauge, i.e. zero, although with tyres mounted, while the drive side was between an 11 and 12 which equated to around 100kgf). I mentioned to the builder that the non-drive side spokes seemed to have little tension and he tightened then a little.

I put the wheel back on the bike and oiled the spoke cross-over points and it was fine for another 200km then today the pinging was back. Non-drive side spoke tension is 2-3 on the Park gauge and a few spokes are still close to zero. So, could the pinging be caused by too low spoke tension on the non-drive side? The wheel is still true.

Low spoke count, thin spokes, light rim...not surprised it's making some noise. How much do you weigh?

I'd say a beefier spoke on the RH side would help a lot. Say DT Comps or Sapim Race..then thin on the LH side and 110kgf on the RH side

 

[biker jk]

Low spoke count, thin spokes, light rim...not surprised it's making some noise. How much do you weigh?

I'd say a beefier spoke on the RH side would help a lot. Say DT Comps or Sapim Race..then thin on the LH side and 110kgf on the RH side

I weigh 68kg and the wheel had covered 10000km before the rim was replaced without any pinging or trouble whatsoever. So ca n anyone help?

 

[42x16ss]

I weigh 68kg and the wheel had covered 10000km before the rim was replaced without any pinging or trouble whatsoever. So ca n anyone help?

Wait, you are saying that the wheel was rebuilt with spokes that are 10000km old? That's your problem right there. They will be as flexy as spaghetti!

 

[biker jk]

Wait, you are saying that the wheel was rebuilt with spokes that are 10000km old? That's your problem right there. They will be as flexy as spaghetti!

Really? 10,000km and the spokes will be flexy like spaghetti? You didn't read 100,000km by mistake? The front wheel is as stiff as the day I bought it. The rear remains true but pings. I would like to know if your claim is correct.

 

[42x16ss]

Really? 10,000km and the spokes will be flexy like spaghetti? You didn't read 100,000km by mistake? The front wheel is as stiff as the day I bought it. The rear remains true but pings. I would like to know if your claim is correct.

After being de-stressed when the wheel was disassembled and re-stressed when it was rebuilt, yes. In my experience anyway.

GM, BK and others probably build more wheels in a week than I do in a year and may have another theory though.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Wait, you are saying that the wheel was rebuilt with spokes that are 10000km old? That's your problem right there. They will be as flexy as spaghetti!

Stainless steel wire doesn't get flexy with age. If it did, the wheel would be out of true.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I would appreciate any thoughts as to what may be the cause of a problem I'm having with a rear wheel. The rim was replaced and re-laced with the same spokes and hub. After around 200km of riding, a pinging sound started to occur when under load (climbing). It's not a high pitched sound but somewhat dull.

Anyway, I went back to the builder and he suggested the spokes may need a drop of oil where they cross (built two cross with DT Aerolite spokes, 24 spokes and Kinlin XR-270 rim). I had checked the spoke tension with my Park gauge and the non-drive side spokes seemed very low (not even registering on the gauge, i.e. zero, although with tyres mounted, while the drive side was between an 11 and 12 which equated to around 100kgf). I mentioned to the builder that the non-drive side spokes seemed to have little tension and he tightened then a little.

I put the wheel back on the bike and oiled the spoke cross-over points and it was fine for another 200km then today the pinging was back. Non-drive side spoke tension is 2-3 on the Park gauge and a few spokes are still close to zero. So, could the pinging be caused by too low spoke tension on the non-drive side? The wheel is still true.

To me this does sound like the tension is too low. You should be at about 120-130kgf on the drive side and around 60-65 on the nds. A spoke won't spaghetti as it ages, it will stretch out and brake first. I wouldn't have rebuilt with those spokes either, too many miles on them for a low spoke count wheel. Remember the less spokes you have the faster they wear out. If it still does make a noise after realizing a proper final tension, drop linseed oil or loctite on the head (tire side) of each nipple, could be a bad seat in one the spoke holes.

 

[biker jk]

To me this does sound like the tension is too low. You should be at about 120-130kgf on the drive side and around 60-65 on the nds. A spoke won't spaghetti as it ages, it will stretch out and brake first. I wouldn't have rebuilt with those spokes either, too many miles on them for a low spoke count wheel. Remember the less spokes you have the faster they wear out. If it still does make a noise after realizing a proper final tension, drop linseed oil or loctite on the head (tire side) of each nipple, could be a bad seat in one the spoke holes.

I re-tensioned the wheel today. Increased the very low non-drive side tension (recall some spokes had a zero reading on the Park gauge) and adjusted the drive side as appropriate to keep true. Test rode it briefly around the block including some very short hills and no pinging at all. I will be keen to see if the spoke tension is maintained after some longer rides. Thanks for your help.

 

[biker jk]

Can someone please explain why the drive side pulling spokes should be installed heads out? I'm planning on building a set of wheels with rear 24h laced 2 x both sides. The non-drive pulling spokes should also be heads out, correct?

 

[Euskadi]

Spoke hole and spoke gauge

Hi everyone,

Will Dt Competitions 1.8/1.6 be fine with 2.3 (dura ace 7900) spoke hole diameter? I mean, not too thin?

thanks

 

[JayKosta]

Can someone please explain why the drive side pulling spokes should be installed heads out? I'm planning on building a set of wheels with rear 24h laced 2 x both sides. The non-drive pulling spokes should also be heads out, correct?

==========================================
Interesting question....

I'm not a wheelbuilder, but it seems there is quite a bit of 'personal preference' about various lacing patterns and techiques - it probably depends on what has worked best for each builder.

My thoughts -

'Head out' gives the straightest 'pull angle' for the spoke because it reduces the 'bracing angle'.

'Head in' places less stress on the spoke bend because some of the stress is absorbed by the spoke pressing on the hub flange.

The lacing pattern for non-pulling (left side) spokes is mostly a cosmetic concern. It depends on what 'look' you like - I doubt there is noticeable performance difference.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Can someone please explain why the drive side pulling spokes should be installed heads out? I'm planning on building a set of wheels with rear 24h laced 2 x both sides. The non-drive pulling spokes should also be heads out, correct?

They shouldn't be, necessarily. Depends on how the wheel was built initially. Get 3 true wheelbuilders in a room and ask about inside or outside pulling, get 4 opinions. If the hub is new, I would build heads in for the pulling spokes. How I build all wheels, outside pulling or heads in, pulling spokes, both sides.

A triangle with a wider 'base' is a more stable triangle. For a wheel, using the hub, and the rim and the spokes as the sides of a triangle, the pulling spokes being outside the hub flange makes the 'base' wider..how it was explained to me in 1985 by Mike Howard, my teacher in Colley Ave bike shop in Norfolk.

But fine and dandy wheels can be made with spokes 'inside pulling'.

 

[biker jk]

Much appreciated to the two previous posters. I will build the rear heads in for the pulling spokes. This seems to be favoured by most wheel builders (eye-balling some photos) and I like the theory about better bracing angle and less stress on the spoke bend.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Hi everyone,

Will Dt Competitions 1.8/1.6 be fine with 2.3 (dura ace 7900) spoke hole diameter? I mean, not too thin?

thanks

Altho 2.3..my experience with DA hubs is the 2mm spoke is pretty snug..but if you are concerned or if it seems like there is a lot of slop with a 1.8mm spoke, use spoke washers...add 1mm to the length also.

If you are asking if 15/16 Comps will work for you...well, they are thinner than 14/15. There is no real weight savings, but they will work as long as the other 2 strikes are not committed..light rim, low spoke count.

 

[Euskadi]

Edco hub

does anyone know where do I find the specs for this hubs? flange spacing etc...

 

[veganrob]

You can go on Sapim website and they will give you directions on how to measure hub dimensions for wheel building purposes.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

does anyone know where do I find the specs for this hubs? flange spacing etc...

7900?

45mm flange diameter, 19mm ctr to flange right side..rear hub. LH 33mm I think.

38mm flange diameter, 35.5 ctr to flange front. Front from memory, I'm at home.