::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Maybe not the exactly right thread for the question, but does anybody know where I can find a wheelbuilder in Belgium ? (preferebly West or Oost-Vlaanderen?)

What's wrong with your S60's? No good on the pavé? What kind of wheels are you looking for exactly? From what I've seen it looks like you have a lot of bike shops in your area.

 

[flyor64]

...there is no info for DA 7900 hubs included. Does anyone have details of this hub to install into the spoke calculator

May be a little late but here ya go:

Dura-Ace 7900 details

 

[tidean]

Carbon rims

Anyone know where I can buy some carbon rims, not too pricey though

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The CX-Rays will build into a stiffer, stronger, and lighter wheel set. That's precisely why they cost so much.

Gonna bite here. I have built more than a few wheels with DT Aerolites, Cx-Rays not really available to me but I don't see why a spoke with a center section of .9mm makes a stronger, stiffer wheel than one made with a spoke with a 1.8mm center section, all else like rim, spoke count and wheel design being equal. Particularly when both spoke types(like Sapim) are made from the same stainless steel. Particularly why stiffer laterally, side to side. NOT trying to argue so don't take it that way, just want to know. Reading the Sapim website is like reading the DT website..a little to subjective.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Gonna bite here. I have built more than a few wheels with DT Aerolites, Cx-Rays not really available to me but I don't see why a spoke with a center section of .9mm makes a stronger, stiffer wheel than one made with a spoke with a 1.8mm center section, all else like rim, spoke count and wheel design being equal. Particularly when both spoke types(like Sapim) are made from the same stainless steel. Particularly why stiffer laterally, side to side. NOT trying to argue so don't take it that way, just want to know. Reading the Sapim website is like reading the DT website..a little to subjective.

I understand the confusion, it's come up more than once. CX-Rays and Aerolites are virtually identical on the surface, the difference is that Sapim uses a higher quality stainless steel and more advanced forging and finishing processes than DT which is no secret, it's all out there for all to see. I admit might sound a bit subjective, but the quality of the material does result in a stronger spoke, albeit small differences, I'm convinced. I've done my own non-scientific bench tests comparing DT and Sapim quality of manufacture, and Sapim wins every time, and not just CX-Ray vs. Aerolite, it's runs the gamut, Race vs. Comp, and Laser vs. Rev. In the end DT is good enough and is widely available, good for bike shops, seeing as how they have manufacturing and distribution right in your backyard Bustedknuckle. Sapim is the best, but a much smaller company, and a favorite amongst pro wheel builders, how it's been for years.

CX-Rays are available to you just like everybody else, you just don't know how to deal with KHS. I'm not arguing either, but we've gone down this road before in the earlier pages of this thread.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I understand the confusion, it's come up more than once. CX-Rays and Aerolites are virtually identical on the surface, the difference is that Sapim uses a higher quality stainless steel and more advanced forging and finishing processes than DT which is no secret, it's all out there for all to see. I admit might sound a bit subjective, but the quality of the material does result in a stronger spoke, albeit small differences, I'm convinced. I've done my own non-scientific bench tests comparing DT and Sapim quality of manufacture, and Sapim wins every time, and not just CX-Ray vs. Aerolite, it's runs the gamut, Race vs. Comp, and Laser vs. Rev. In the end DT is good enough and is widely available, good for bike shops, seeing as how they have manufacturing and distribution right in your backyard Bustedknuckle. Sapim is the best, but a much smaller company, and a favorite amongst pro wheel builders, how it's been for years.

CX-Rays are available to you just like everybody else, you just don't know how to deal with KHS. I'm not arguing either, but we've gone down this road before in the earlier pages of this thread.

Thanks for this but I was really referring to Cx-Rays VS Sapim Race or Laser spokes..same material, yes? Then a 1.5 center section or 1.8mm center section would mean a stiffer wheel, laterally, yes?

Plus I can get Sapim now from Velocity USA. Looking into it.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks for this but I was really referring to Cx-Rays VS Sapim Race or Laser spokes..same material, yes? Then a 1.5 center section or 1.8mm center section would mean a stiffer wheel, laterally, yes?

No, I don't think so. The CX-Ray is an entirely different animal, same steel as the rest of the Sapims, I think, may be wrong, but I know they're mfg'd much differently than the rest of the line up. It's the "alien" spoke, stronger and stiffer than all others a the same weight, even round spokes. I realize that Mr. Spock like "logic" would suggest that 1.8 would be laterally stiffer than a 1.5, but we're talking about CX-Rays, which defies logic all together, it's the wunderspoke. I've snapped triple butted and straight gauge spokes in my bench tests before CX-Rays even started registering any significant elasticity, which says a whole helluva lot about what's going on here. Spokes at the same weight as CX-Rays like Lasers and Revs don't even come close to its strength or stiffness.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Hey Bustedknuckle, you, or any other wheelbuilders out there have any experience with Pillar spokes? Curious about quality, their selection huge, lots of ti spokes too, and the color selection is massive.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Hey Bustedknuckle, you, or any other wheelbuilders out there have any experience with Pillar spokes? Curious about quality, their selection huge, lots of ti spokes too, and the color selection is massive.

Nope but I have messed with ti spokes...never again.

 

[biker jk]

I understand the confusion, it's come up more than once. CX-Rays and Aerolites are virtually identical on the surface, the difference is that Sapim uses a higher quality stainless steel and more advanced forging and finishing processes than DT which is no secret, it's all out there for all to see. I admit might sound a bit subjective, but the quality of the material does result in a stronger spoke, albeit small differences, I'm convinced. I've done my own non-scientific bench tests comparing DT and Sapim quality of manufacture, and Sapim wins every time, and not just CX-Ray vs. Aerolite, it's runs the gamut, Race vs. Comp, and Laser vs. Rev. In the end DT is good enough and is widely available, good for bike shops, seeing as how they have manufacturing and distribution right in your backyard Bustedknuckle. Sapim is the best, but a much smaller company, and a favorite amongst pro wheel builders, how it's been for years.

CX-Rays are available to you just like everybody else, you just don't know how to deal with KHS. I'm not arguing either, but we've gone down this road before in the earlier pages of this thread.

Hi there RDV4ROUBAIX.

What do you think about the view below? I found it doing a quick search on Google.

Here is why I think DT Aerolite spokes are better than Sapim CX-Ray spokes:

Aerolites are much more resilient. Look what I can do with an Aerolite spoke:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/5/15/1913438/aerolite.jpg

The same vice + plier action on a CX-Ray led to a spoke with no head, as the material is much more brittle. On a wheel, the stretchiness of the Aerolites makes it more durable and less prone to pulling when someone sticks a pedal or skewer in your wheel, as the spoke will be more likely to bend than pull out the nipple or break at the head.

The nipples that DT specifies are a little softer than the Sapim nipples. Not enough to make them more likely to get rounded off when working with them, but enough to make tensioning an easier go.

Note the dimension of the spoke elbows:

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/randon-2008-news/cx-aerolite.jpg

The Aerolite's elbow is shorter, bringing the spoke closer to the hub flange than the CX-Ray. On most hubs, the spoke will actually rest on the hub flange, improving durability by distributing stress more evenly. In order to have the same spoke/hub flange contact with the CX-Rays, you would have to use a head washer. Otherwise, the CX-Ray spoke will kind of float beside the flange, and it will transfer all of its stress to the head and spoke hole on the hub.

If you are building a wicked pair of race wheels and you have a cash, use Aerolites.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Don't agree at all. You stick with DT and I with Sapim, it's better that way.

 

[dynomike8]

Quick question. Finally decided to build my own wheels for my road bike as I am never happy with selection of prebuilt stuff (plus I want to go tubular). I have built several wheels before but nothing that I use regularly, so I do have some experience.

Anyway, I used the DT Swiss spoke calculator with a 12 mm brass nipple and got a length of 283 for the front spokes. Does this imply that I would need a 283 if I went with a Sapim or Wheelsmith spoke, or should I use their respective calculator's (obviously the same question applies to the rear as well)?

By the way, the DT Swiss calculator had options for allow nipples and messing nipples. I am correct in assuming that the messing nipples are the brass option?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Quick question. Finally decided to build my own wheels for my road bike as I am never happy with selection of prebuilt stuff (plus I want to go tubular). I have built several wheels before but nothing that I use regularly, so I do have some experience.

Anyway, I used the DT Swiss spoke calculator with a 12 mm brass nipple and got a length of 283 for the front spokes. Does this imply that I would need a 283 if I went with a Sapim or Wheelsmith spoke, or should I use their respective calculator's (obviously the same question applies to the rear as well)?

By the way, the DT Swiss calculator had options for allow nipples and messing nipples. I am correct in assuming that the messing nipples are the brass option?

Messing = brass. If you went with Sapim, you can usually only get even lengths, then round up or down to the nearest even number. If you really want to be accurate and still use Sapim, get them cut to length, otherwise go with DT. In general rear wheels should have a 2mm difference in spoke length between DS and NDS.

 

[dynomike8]

Messing = brass. If you went with Sapim, you can usually only get even lengths, then round up or down to the nearest even number. If you really want to be accurate and still use Sapim, get them cut to length, otherwise go with DT. In general rear wheels should have a 2mm difference in spoke length between DS and NDS.

Thanks. That makes sense. So let me ask another question. I was planning on DT 240s, CX-RAY spokes, and velocity escape rims (28r, 24f). I was thinking radial front and 3 cross rear, does that seem reasonable?

The caveat here is that these are going to be my everyday wheels (group and solo rides, centuries, etc). So I want them strong first and foremost but I also would like them to be a reasonable weight. I weigh 150 lb (68 kg). Do you think this wheelset would be solid or should I consider maybe 32 and 28 or different spokes, etc.? Any input appreciated.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks. That makes sense. So let me ask another question. I was planning on DT 240s, CX-RAY spokes, and velocity escape rims (28r, 24f). I was thinking radial front and 3 cross rear, does that seem reasonable?

No, if you're doing that spoke count the rear 28h is going to require a 2x.

The caveat here is that these are going to be my everyday wheels (group and solo rides, centuries, etc). So I want them strong first and foremost but I also would like them to be a reasonable weight. I weigh 150 lb (68 kg). Do you think this wheelset would be solid or should I consider maybe 32 and 28 or different spokes, etc.? Any input appreciated.

Man, are you sure you wanna roll tubies for an everyday set? I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just that I don't really know anybody that rolls sew-ups on a daily basis anymore. Back in the 80's, hell yes. If they're non-race wheels it wouldn't hurt to up the spoke count when the weight of 8 more spokes is going to give you more piece of mind at a minimum weight penalty. I know some 150lb racers that even go 36 hole front and rear for everyday wheels, so when you put on the 1400g race wheels you feel much faster. Kinda like when baseball players use bat weights warming up in the on deck circle.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

No, if you're doing that spoke count the rear 28h is going to require a 2x.



Man, are you sure you wanna roll tubies for an everyday set? I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just that I don't really know anybody that rolls sew-ups on a daily basis anymore. Back in the 80's, hell yes. If they're non-race wheels it wouldn't hurt to up the spoke count when the weight of 8 more spokes is going to give you more piece of mind at a minimum weight penalty. I know some 150lb racers that even go 36 hole front and rear for everyday wheels, so when you put on the 1400g race wheels you feel much faster. Kinda like when baseball players use bat weights warming up in the on deck circle.

Not sure if you really 'know' me but I use tubies everyday. I see no compelling reason to switch to clinchers. Gluing them on, etc, is really no big deal, love the ride. Currently I have a set of C-Record hubs laced to Campagnolo Delta XL, another to Record Cronos, Phils laced to Mavic Mach IICDs...

As for the gent that wants 28h and 3 cross. I agree, ideally 28 means 2 cross, particularly on large-ish flanges but I have laced 28 and 3 cross to say, DA sized flanged hubs, lacing them inside pulling so the pulling spoke doesn't bend so far over the flange.

 

[dynomike8]

Not sure if you really 'know' me but I use tubies everyday. I see no compelling reason to switch to clinchers. Gluing them on, etc, is really no big deal, love the ride. Currently I have a set of C-Record hubs laced to Campagnolo Delta XL, another to Record Cronos, Phils laced to Mavic Mach IICDs...

As for the gent that wants 28h and 3 cross. I agree, ideally 28 means 2 cross, particularly on large-ish flanges but I have laced 28 and 3 cross to say, DA sized flanged hubs, lacing them inside pulling so the pulling spoke doesn't bend so far over the flange.

Thanks for the help from both of you. I wasn't 100% sure is 28 was 2 cross or 3 cross, but now I know.

As for going tubular, I ride 5000+ miles a year, and was really looking to try something new to break up the monotony and to see if I truly like them, that's pretty much it. I'm getting everything wholesale, so its not putting a huge dent in my wallet. Plus I'll get a nice set of hubs out of it anyway if I change my mind.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Oh yeah, Bustedknuckle rides tubulars everyday, I knew that, how could I forget.

I used to ride tubulars more often, but have relegated them to races and hilly rides in the Coulées.

 

[dynomike8]

Not sure if you really 'know' me but I use tubies everyday. I see no compelling reason to switch to clinchers. Gluing them on, etc, is really no big deal, love the ride. Currently I have a set of C-Record hubs laced to Campagnolo Delta XL, another to Record Cronos, Phils laced to Mavic Mach IICDs...

As for the gent that wants 28h and 3 cross. I agree, ideally 28 means 2 cross, particularly on large-ish flanges but I have laced 28 and 3 cross to say, DA sized flanged hubs, lacing them inside pulling so the pulling spoke doesn't bend so far over the flange.

Thanks for all of the input guys, best thread ever. Decided on 32 rear, 28 front just to be on the safe side. One last question (I think!). The CX-RAYS are supplied with alloy nipples, but I want to use brass. I have a whole box of DT brass nipples at home. Is it okay to mix brands or should I just buy the sapim brass polyax nipples?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Yeah you can mix brands. Get an aero key if you don't have one, you don't want to twist those CX-Rays when you're tensioning. You can also make one with a piece of wood or hard plastic and a hacksaw.

 

[dynomike8]

Yeah you can mix brands. Get an aero key if you don't have one, you don't want to twist those CX-Rays when you're tensioning. You can also make one with a piece of wood or hard plastic and a hacksaw.

Thanks RDV4! Will do.

 

[Fenceline]

Took a while but I have finally finished them.
Thanks for your help.

 

[lostintime]

I'm going to have a custom set of wheels built for a wide tire 700c frame(Rivendell Bombadil), so I'll be using a Mavic A719 rim. I'm using a rear 135mm 7sp Phil Wood Freewheel hub, but debating on the front. I've way overblown my so-called budget on parts, and wondered if there was a good cartridge bearing front hub to get instead of a $120 PW.

They gotta be silver. Cartridge bearings only.

I see Wiggle.UK has Hope Pro 3 front hubs for around $67. I know nothing of Hope though .... are they decent? Easy to disassemble and replace bearings?

I my just go the real budget route, I've got a NOS Suntour Grease Guard XC Pro front hub just laying around. The bearing adjustment can be a bit finicky on these though , they adjust like cup/cone hubs , but have cartridge bearings. I've used Specialized branded hubs just like them since 1983, the only real issue is a slight amount of side play in the hub that seems characteristic of them ,as I have 2 sets and they all exhibit it.

Any other hub ideas would be appreciated.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

For that nice of a frame, that nice of a rear wheel, stick with Phil. 60 bucks Dude, that's all you need? Stop eating out, put in some OT at work, whatever it takes. It would be a travesty to mismatch hubs like that, on a US made Rivendell no less. Any other bike I would say get whatever hub, but not this time. Phil all the way.

 

[lostintime]

Thanks for the perspective.