::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Hi - looking at building up my own wheels in the not to distant future.

Can any of you experienced builders recommend a good reference book to use as a guide?

Thanks.

You don't really need a book to build wheels, Sheldon Brown's website has guided many wheel virgins into blissful wheel building orgasms. You can also follow the links for a decent spoke calculator like Spocalc by Damon Rinard.

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

If you feel that you really need a book, the best one is 'the Bicycle Wheel' by Jobst Brandt. A bit antiquated, but a good resource for basic wheel building.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Thanks.

I'm familiar with that site, so will give it a go.

 

[rich00]

Hi all,

Looking at building a set crit wheels. I'm between 80kg and 78kg and like to sprint. I'm looking at the niobium (xr300) 24h front 2x and 28h rear 2x. I'm split between the DTcomps or CX -Ray, I'm wanting a stiff set. I read that weight of the spoke has a direct relationship to stiffness, more mass equates to more metal and leads to a stiffer spoke. Am I better off going with the DT comps ?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Hi all,

Looking at building a set crit wheels. I'm between 80kg and 78kg and like to sprint. I'm looking at the niobium (xr300) 24h front 2x and 28h rear 2x. I'm split between the DTcomps or CX -Ray, I'm wanting a stiff set. I read that weight of the spoke has a direct relationship to stiffness, more mass equates to more metal and leads to a stiffer spoke. Am I better off going with the DT comps ?

The only difference you're going to feel between those spokes is the price. 100 bucks more for CX-Rays, which would build up to a slightly stiffer and lighter wheel. The question you have to ask yourself is if such a small difference in performance is worth that much. Go with the DT Comps and take your favorite person out for a nice dinner and a movie with the money you save.

 

[rich00]

The only difference you're going to feel between those spokes is the price. 100 bucks more for CX-Rays, which would build up to a slightly stiffer and lighter wheel. The question you have to ask yourself is if such a small difference in performance is worth that much. Go with the DT Comps and take your favorite person out for a nice dinner and a movie with the money you save.

Thanks for the advice. DT comps it is !!

 

[Tristan]

100 bucks more for CX-Rays, which would build up to a slightly stiffer and lighter wheel.

I think you've got a typo there....the Competition is a heavier / stiffer spoke than the CX-Ray. All things being equal the wheels will be about 10% stiffer with Competitions.

rich00: You're 100% correct that more metal means a stiffer spoke which means a stiffer wheel.

You don't say what hubs you're using but at your weight CX-Rays will be fine on the front and rear. If you want the extra stiffness then you could use CX-Rays on the rear NDS and Competitions on the DS.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I think you've got a typo there....the Competition is a heavier / stiffer spoke than the CX-Ray. All things being equal the wheels will be about 10% stiffer with Competitions.

Yep, you're right, more steel = stiffer spoke. Though I'd like to see where you get that 10%. It's no wonder why tons of pros use the CX-Ray not so much for the aerodynamics, but it is one of the strongest spokes at that weight, and Sapim uses the highest quality steel and a very intensive forging and finishing process for the production of the CX-Ray, something DT cannot boast. We could go back and forth on this, but the fact remains that most people don't need 'em, and the cost to performance ratio doesn't make sense for the average Joe, or rich00 in this case. Seems he's already made up his mind.

 

[rich00]

Yep, you're right, more steel = stiffer spoke. Though I'd like to see where you get that 10%. It's no wonder why tons of pros use the CX-Ray not so much for the aerodynamics, but it is one of the strongest spokes at that weight, and Sapim uses the highest quality steel and a very intensive forging and finishing process for the production of the CX-Ray, something DT cannot boast. We could go back and forth on this, but the fact remains that most people don't need 'em, and the cost to performance ratio doesn't make sense for the average Joe, or rich00 in this case. Seems he's already made up his mind.

The hubs I intend to use are Novatec's. I have a budget that I need to stick to and the it seems that DT Comps would make more sense.

Next question is, the lacing pattern for the front wheel.

1. 20h radial -- ( Will this be stiff enough ?)
2. 24h radial -- ( Is this any different to a 24h 2x ?)
3. 24h 2x. -- ( Will this be too stiff ?)

The hubs I intend to use are front NOVATEC A291SB and rear NOVATEC F482SB .

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The hubs I intend to use are Novatec's. I have a budget that I need to stick to and the it seems that DT Comps would make more sense.

Next question is, the lacing pattern for the front wheel.

1. 20h radial -- ( Will this be stiff enough ?)
2. 24h radial -- ( Is this any different to a 24h 2x ?)
3. 24h 2x. -- ( Will this be too stiff ?)

The hubs I intend to use are front NOVATEC A291SB and rear NOVATEC F482SB .

Since this wheel set is for crits and based on your weight it wouldn't hurt to have a bit stiffer front wheel, you'll achieve that with 24 holes, more spokes = stiffer wheel, and very little weight penalty for 4 more spokes. Radial or 2x won't make any noticeable difference from a performance aspect, especially in a front wheel, mostly just what you prefer aesthetically.

 

[rich00]

Thanks for the advice RDV4. This forum has been great for advice..

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks for the advice RDV4. This forum has been great for advice..

Sure, no sweat. Happy to help.

I'd like to add that if you decide to go with a radial pattern on the front wheel, or maybe even the NDS of the rear wheel, the one thing you have to account for is that radial patterns are a bit finicky do to the constant loading and unloading stresses. The nipples, especially brass like to spin loose if you don't have a decent method of locking those threads. I always use aluminum nips for radial patterns because the steel/alu combo gives more friction, the aluminum will oxidize and eventually lock the nipple where you can't true your wheel anymore, but you don't want the nips to totally lock up, so I use an anti-seize compound on the threads, then cap it off with a loctite 220 right before final tension. And if you use aluminum nips, make sure you lube those nipple seats before you bring it up to tension, like you always should, but when using alu nips on a non-eyeletted alu rim the two can fuse together. Alu nips are really grabby so you'd be contending with more spoke torsion (twist) than with brass.

Good luck brother!

 

[rich00]

RDV4Roubaix-Thanks for the heads up on the radial lacing. It sounds like a lot of effort to go through for aesthetics and no performnce gain. I was looking at alloy nipps for the front and NDS, but think I will stick to brass. I gain 20 or so grams in weight but gain more in durability and reliability. Plus I don't think it's going to cripple my club racing.. I'm trying to keep the build under 1600g as they are replacing my campag zondas which weigh more than this. Also the rear rim has started to crack around the eyelets which is another reason to build my own.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

RDV4Roubaix-Thanks for the heads up on the radial lacing. It sounds like a lot of effort to go through for aesthetics and no performnce gain. I was looking at alloy nipps for the front and NDS, but think I will stick to brass. I gain 20 or so grams in weight but gain more in durability and reliability. Plus I don't think it's going to cripple my club racing.. I'm trying to keep the build under 1600g as they are replacing my campag zondas which weigh more than this. Also the rear rim has started to crack around the eyelets which is another reason to build my own.

Ha, you're right. Stick with brass, just wanted to give you some options. If you want alu nips to last and be functional in the wheel for a long time it takes some care as you can see. Keep in mind that weight totals at the outer edge of a wheel basically double when the wheel is rotating, that 20g is actually 40g when in motion, also factor in the few grams of savings from using shorter spokes for a radial pattern, it adds up quick. Food for thought, not important now, but if you ever want to build a lightweight climbing set you know what to expect with the build.

 

[Road Hazard]

Truing wheels with bladed / aero spokes

I've searched and unless I'm using the wrong terminology, this problem hasn't been discussed before.

How does one true a wheel with bladed or aero spokes? The problem is when I turn the nipple, the spoke twists. The blade effect is lost of course, and the spoke looks like a strand of DNA, but more importantly, I imagine this is weakening the spoke itself (like flexing a paperclip until it fails).

My guess is that you could hold the spoke in place with a wrench, but at the very least that would scrap off the white paint.

I always assumed that the nipple rotated freely from the spoke but since my other wheels have round spokes I never realized what was happening. This also makes me wonder if my other wheels are compromised.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

You need an aero spoke key. I use the plastic Sapim aero keys, in the past I've cut slots into pieces of wood and other hard plastic bits. Metal ones will clearly scratch your finish. If you really bent the shit out of it that it won't go back to shape you have to replace the spoke.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'll give you a tip to detect spoke torsion when you're building with normal spokes. When you're bringing the wheel up to tension, you should get used to pinching lightly the spoke you're turning with your free hand and you'll be able to feel if it's twisting. If it does, compensate by going up then backing off a bit to keep it straight. You should also stress relieve the spokes for a couple cycles right before final tension, that should release some spoke torsion that you might have missed.

Do you mind if I move this to the wheelbuilders thread?

 

[Road Hazard]

If the wheel builders thread is more appropriate, please do.

Well, this is a ball of wax from what I've read in the last hour googling this issue.

I only find one US online retailer selling a "Sapim CX AND CXRAY KEY"

http://www.bikebully.com/products/sapim-cx-and-cxray-key?utm_source=google-product-search

And the stress relieving seems straightforward enough from Sheldon Brown's site: "Stress relieving to relax these high stress points is accomplished by over-stressing them in order to erase their memory ... stretching spoke pairs with a strong grasp at midspan, can momentarily increased tension by 50% to 100% ... By stretching them, these zones relax below yield by as much as the overload."

Edit:

I should mention, in addition to the advice about turning past the desired point then turning back, one practical solution I came across was using a slip joint pliers or wrench with a cloth or old tee-shirt as a buffer to hold the spoke while turning the nipple to avoid damaging the paint on the spoke.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Your LBS can order that Sapim aero key for you from KHS Bicycle Parts in Illinois. Or you could DIY like I said with some wood or plastic if you've got a fairly thin blade, hacksaw is too thick.

Scratch that, hacksaw blade is perfect. Just cut a piece of 2x4 and it fits a CX-Ray pretty tight.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I should mention, in addition to the advice about turning past the desired point then turning back, one practical solution I came across was using a slip joint pliers or wrench with a cloth or old tee-shirt as a buffer to hold the spoke while turning the nipple to avoid damaging the paint on the spoke.

Yeah, I know lots of guys that use all kinds of clamps and stuff. I was taught to build wheels by feel. Whatever works.

 

[Road Hazard]

Supposing it was more art than science (with science as the background) I made my best effort with a regular spoke key and a wrench with a paper towel wrapped around it.

Eventually it got it mostly true by paying attention to not only the wobbly part but the parts nearby (about a quarter radius before and after) and the parts on the opposite side of the rim.

Sheldon Brown said to not tighten the loose spoke but tighten the opposites (because the loose spoke is on the side of the deformation so tightening it will only enhance the deformation). How to know when this is the case or not is the art part of it I suppose. I tried to keep an eye on the dish of the wheel (the center over the hub).

I tightened about a half turn past the target then turned back, and then detensioned (squeeze each adjacent set of spokes hard) before each "test" with the true stand.

Then it was a half hour of doing the same all around, closer to true each time but not exactly there (never got exactly there but close enough since we speaking of poetry and not mathematics).

Ultimately I got it more or less true and the aero spokes more or less aligned.

Thanks to RDV4 and the forum, I hope my rudimentary post helps someone in a similar rudimentary situation as I found myself.

Edit:

Tightening = turn counter clockwise
Loosening = turn clockwise

The opposite of righty tighty lefty loosey.

 

[Fenceline]

Hub spec question

Hi,
I have been using a set of wheels with the following spec on and off for the last 15 years,
Open pro rims
Durace 7700 hubs
Frt 3x 2.0/1.8 brass nipples
Rear 3x 2.0/1.8 brass nipples Non drive, 3x 2.0 brass nipples drive side.
Unfortunatly the bearing races are worn and the braking surfaces of the rims are almost worn through for the second time (bring on hyd. discs asap).
I now intend to build a new set with the following spec
Open pro rims
Durace 7900 hubs
Frt 3x CX-ray brass nipples
Rear 3x CX-ray brass nipples
The questions are;
Will there be much difference in the feel of the wheels by changing spoke specs?
I have looked at the Rinard spokecalc spreadsheet and there is no info for DA 7900 hubs included. Does anyone have details of this hub to install into the spoke calculator, or know the lengths of spokes required?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Hi,
I have been using a set of wheels with the following spec on and off for the last 15 years,
Open pro rims
Durace 7700 hubs
Frt 3x 2.0/1.8 brass nipples
Rear 3x 2.0/1.8 brass nipples Non drive, 3x 2.0 brass nipples drive side.
Unfortunatly the bearing races are worn and the braking surfaces of the rims are almost worn through for the second time (bring on hyd. discs asap).
I now intend to build a new set with the following spec
Open pro rims
Durace 7900 hubs
Frt 3x CX-ray brass nipples
Rear 3x CX-ray brass nipples
The questions are;
Will there be much difference in the feel of the wheels by changing spoke specs?
I have looked at the Rinard spokecalc spreadsheet and there is no info for DA 7900 hubs included. Does anyone have details of this hub to install into the spoke calculator, or know the lengths of spokes required?

Grab your vernier caliper and measure your hubs how Rinard describes, then enter the readings into the spreadsheet, easy. CX-Rays are expensive, might be overkill for a wheel like that, but I'm not gonna stop ya. Read the 1st post of this thread and you'll see that I've laced CX-Rays in much lesser wheels. They'll be a bit lighter for a lot more money though.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Maybe not the exactly right thread for the question, but does anybody know where I can find a wheelbuilder in Belgium ? (preferebly West or Oost-Vlaanderen?)

 

[Fenceline]

I have not recieved the hubs yet and was hoping to be able to order the spokes before they arrived, I guess I will need to be patient.
The second part of the question is whether using cxrays will change the feel ie lateral stiffness compared to the spokes I am currently using due to the smaller cross sectional area.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I have not recieved the hubs yet and was hoping to be able to order the spokes before they arrived, I guess I will need to be patient.
The second part of the question is whether using cxrays will change the feel ie lateral stiffness compared to the spokes I am currently using due to the smaller cross sectional area.

The CX-Rays will build into a stiffer, stronger, and lighter wheel set. That's precisely why they cost so much.