::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

pretty much what I have. I had bought a pair of Spinergy Spox wheels at SuperGo and didn't break any spokes but the freewheel disintegrated in under 1000 miles. I took them to my LBS where I bought my bike but it couldn't be repaired. The LBS tried to go through Spinergy but was having no luck. So he built these wheels up and gave them to me. Yeah he replaced a set of wheels purchased elsewhere for me for free. Needless to say I am now a very loyal customer.
So are these Wheelsmith spokes?

I broke a rear spoke within 1500 miles.

Yes, Wheelsmith. Not surprised you broke one, they're notoriously soft.

 

[marathon marke]

Yes, Wheelsmith. Not surprised you broke one, they're notoriously soft.

RDV4, I've been out of the loop for 20 years or so, but wasn't Wheelsmith once considered a good product?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

RDV4, I've been out of the loop for 20 years or so, but wasn't Wheelsmith once considered a good product?

Yeah, about 25 years ago when there wasn't much of a choice. Ric Hjertberg, the founder of WS even turned me away from using his spoke prep, recommended Loctite 220 instead. You'll find Wheelsmith spokes in only in lower grade wheels these days.

DT/SAPIM/PILLAR are the very best out there now.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Question to all wheel builders out there; any of you have any recent builds with ALPINA RAGGI spokes, the famous "A" on the head? The shop where I learned to build wheels used these exclusively and was wondering if any of you have any comments on them. I thought they were always top notch, popular in the motorcycling world too (krebs303)...

http://www.alpinaraggi.it/

 

[Parera]

Are the velocity A23 rims solid? Thinking of getting some laced up w/105 hubs for my Roubaix as it will be transitioning into a winter bike.

 

[42x16ss]

Are the velocity A23 rims solid? Thinking of getting some laced up w/105 hubs for my Roubaix as it will be transitioning into a winter bike.

Very solid. These should give you plenty of training/commuting km's when looked after. I've used Velocity Rims quite a few times in the past - never had an issue.

 

[Parera]

Very solid. These should give you plenty of training/commuting km's when looked after. I've used Velocity Rims quite a few times in the past - never had an issue.

Good to know. Thank you.

 

[krebs303]

The only spokes I am familiar with are Buchanan's. They have backwards B on the head. Quite convenient to do wheels with the spokes manufactured on sight. I miss doing car wheels especially Borrani's for Ferrari, Old Cadillac and Buick wires. And wheels for **** Kingston's replica 1936 Auburn Boat-tail Speedsters

 

[Parera]

Got some velocity a23 rims and 105 hubs 32h for $15O total here in pdx, will build them up when I get back home. overbuilt for my weight I guess but these should be monsters for my winter training. Also found a bargain on vittoria open pave and some latex tubes, always curious to try that combo...never owned a high tpi tire. Good stuff.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Got some velocity a23 rims and 105 hubs 32h for $15O total here in pdx, will build them up when I get back home. overbuilt for my weight I guess but these should be monsters for my winter training. Also found a bargain on vittoria open pave and some latex tubes, always curious to try that combo...never owned a high tpi tire. Good stuff.

Nice choice! Been building and riding with the A23 since the came out a couple years ago, great rim. A note about Vittoria tires, while they ride extremely well you'll find that they will wear out much faster than most, especially the high tpi models, even their lower tpi models wear fast. I only recommend Vittoria for race day, and usually the tubulars only. If you plan on putting a lot of miles in make the switch to Continental after you burn through those Vittorias, any Conti tire even the high tpi race models will outlast any Vittoria twice over.

 

[Parera]

Nice choice! Been building and riding with the A23 since the came out a couple years ago, great rim. A note about Vittoria tires, while they ride extremely well you'll find that they will wear out much faster than most, especially the high tpi models, even their lower tpi models wear fast. I only recommend Vittoria for race day, and usually the tubulars only. If you plan on putting a lot of miles in make the switch to Continental after you burn through those Vittorias, any Conti tire even the high tpi race models will outlast any Vittoria twice over.

Yeah, I've ridden nothing but Continental GP4000s for the past 2.5 years...Nothing wrong with them, just wanted to change things up for a bit.

 

[marathon marke]

I wrench at a local shop, and one of the perks is getting slightly worn tires from the customers that don't trust them anymore. Last week I threw on my first pair of Continental GP4000s. I knew it was going to rain for the ride, so they got a 75-mile rain test. I was really impressed with the ride. I'm going to have to suggest these to more customers (so I can get more cast-offs ).

 

[Parera]

I wrench at a local shop, and one of the perks is getting slightly worn tires from the customers that don't trust them anymore. Last week I threw on my first pair of Continental GP4000s. I knew it was going to rain for the ride, so they got a 75-mile rain test. I was really impressed with the ride. I'm going to have to suggest these to more customers (so I can get more cast-offs ).

Yeah, been alternating between 23c and 25c Conti GP4000s, as I said; before I settled on them as my standard tire I tried some others: Michelin, Schwalbe, Specialized (VOMIT)...nothing came close to the overall worthiness of the Conti GP4000s. Cornering, durability, cut/puncture resistance, etc all high marks. There might be a tire in the same price range that possesses a better aspect compared to conti but certainly comes up short when taken as a whole.

 

[biker77]

I wrench at a local shop, and one of the perks is getting slightly worn tires from the customers that don't trust them anymore. Last week I threw on my first pair of Continental GP4000s. I knew it was going to rain for the ride, so they got a 75-mile rain test. I was really impressed with the ride. I'm going to have to suggest these to more customers (so I can get more cast-offs ).

As a wrench, do you suggest a new wheelset if the customer doesn`t trust a spoke?

 

[WheeledCampionissimo]

H3 WI 36H 4X lacing pattern?

Hi all,

The title of the thread might seem too cryptic, however I wanted to properly summarise what my inquiry is about. I am wondering whether a mixed 2X/4X lacing pattern is a good idea for a 36H White Industry H3 hub configured for Campagnolo 11speed gruppo.

1. Preliminaries
After reading Jobst Brandt's Bicycle Wheel, I wonder why the 4X pattern that he advocates is not favoured or followed or commented in wheel building forums. Jobst suggests that 4X is the most tangential pattern, best to transmit torque and therefore, recommended to be used on the rear wheel. Also, Sheldon Brown refers to Crow's foot pattern, suggested by Robert Torre as whimsical.

The H3 rear hub produced by White Industries, for 11 speed Campagnolo has the following characteristics, as illustrated in the excellent 28-hub review:

Center to flange: 38mm/16mm
Bracing angle: 7.8/3.3
Tension differential: 42%.
From White Industries web site, we know that
measurements are 40.5 mm for left (low flange) and 55.0 mm for right (high flange).

2. Intended build
I have a 36 hole H3 hub to be laced on an Ambrosio Excellence rim, using Sapim Race spokes. I fancy a classic build and I am on a budget constraint. Performance-wise what could ubiquitous CX-Ray contribute to in such low aero scenario apart from increasing ££?

3. Actual Question
i) Is it sensible for a 36H H3 hub to try 4X lacing on the Drive Side (DS) and 2X on the Non Drive Side (NDS) to maximise torque transfer while improving tension differential?

ii) Is a 4X lacing pattern limited by the right flange dimension of the H3, in the sense that there could be undesirable crossings (stress points) among spokes?

iii) Is it true that for the right flange dimensions of the H3, the 4X pattern is the most tangential?

iv) Could the 3X Crow's foot on DS with 2X or radial on NDS be a sensible option?

v) Is it the case that that tension differential could be alleviated by using shorter spokes on the NDS, therefore 2X? Could radial further improve spoke tension over 2X?

My educated guess is that NDS also transfers around 8% of torque. From this perspective, 2X could be better off than radial. Also, 2X is easier on the hub than a radial pattern; stress area of spoke on the hub under 2X is much larger than a single point of stress, nevermind H3 accepts radial.

I know RDV4Roubaix and BustedKnuckle are inquisitive wheel builders and will shed some light on these questions. I greatly value your opinions on sensible suggestions about lacing patterns for a 36H H3-Campagnolo hub.

Once built, I do not want to change the lacing pattern of the wheel, that is why I am asking these questions before hand rather than finding out the hard way.

Many thanks to all for your sensible answers, ideally backed up by empirical facts.

 

[Parera]

Wheels for Papa Bear

As I mentioned in the other thread, stripping my bike of parts and placing them on my father's Cannondale...what should I do for wheels? I have the Mavic Aksium, probably just need a truing and they are good to go; only problem is they are lower spoke count and my dad is 210 lbs (15 more than at my heaviest when I was riding these things). For a low mileage guy, would these be fine...

OR

The wheels that came with the CAAD9: Cannondale "C3" 32h Hubs (probably cheap stuff from Taiwan, I imagine), DT Competition spokes and Mavic CXP23 rims.

...

Yeah, this is stupid; not even a question. The choice is obvious, haha.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Hi all,

The title of the thread might seem too cryptic, however I wanted to properly summarise what my inquiry is about. I am wondering whether a mixed 2X/4X lacing pattern is a good idea for a 36H White Industry H3 hub configured for Campagnolo 11speed gruppo.

1. Preliminaries
After reading Jobst Brandt's Bicycle Wheel, I wonder why the 4X pattern that he advocates is not favoured or followed or commented in wheel building forums. Jobst suggests that 4X is the most tangential pattern, best to transmit torque and therefore, recommended to be used on the rear wheel. Also, Sheldon Brown refers to Crow's foot pattern, suggested by Robert Torre as whimsical.

The H3 rear hub produced by White Industries, for 11 speed Campagnolo has the following characteristics, as illustrated in the excellent 28-hub review:

Center to flange: 38mm/16mm
Bracing angle: 7.8/3.3
Tension differential: 42%.
From White Industries web site, we know that
measurements are 40.5 mm for left (low flange) and 55.0 mm for right (high flange).

2. Intended build
I have a 36 hole H3 hub to be laced on an Ambrosio Excellence rim, using Sapim Race spokes. I fancy a classic build and I am on a budget constraint. Performance-wise what could ubiquitous CX-Ray contribute to in such low aero scenario apart from increasing ££?

3. Actual Question
i) Is it sensible for a 36H H3 hub to try 4X lacing on the Drive Side (DS) and 2X on the Non Drive Side (NDS) to maximise torque transfer while improving tension differential?

ii) Is a 4X lacing pattern limited by the right flange dimension of the H3, in the sense that there could be undesirable crossings (stress points) among spokes?

iii) Is it true that for the right flange dimensions of the H3, the 4X pattern is the most tangential?

iv) Could the 3X Crow's foot on DS with 2X or radial on NDS be a sensible option?

v) Is it the case that that tension differential could be alleviated by using shorter spokes on the NDS, therefore 2X? Could radial further improve spoke tension over 2X?

My educated guess is that NDS also transfers around 8% of torque. From this perspective, 2X could be better off than radial. Also, 2X is easier on the hub than a radial pattern; stress area of spoke on the hub under 2X is much larger than a single point of stress, nevermind H3 accepts radial.

I know RDV4Roubaix and BustedKnuckle are inquisitive wheel builders and will shed some light on these questions. I greatly value your opinions on sensible suggestions about lacing patterns for a 36H H3-Campagnolo hub.

Once built, I do not want to change the lacing pattern of the wheel, that is why I am asking these questions before hand rather than finding out the hard way.

Many thanks to all for your sensible answers, ideally backed up by empirical facts.

Instead of answering a 7 part question, I'll make it short and sweet. J. Brandt is a relic, when he wrote that book (early 80's), extremely outdated by today's standards, the sum of the parts of a bicycle wheel weren't that great quality, the alloys used in spokes, hubs, and rims were very soft, 4 cross is a pattern of that era, don't know anybody that still does 4x. The current crop of parts are much better in terms of stiffness and durability namely due to the quality of the alloys and mfg processes, 4x not needed.

Keep it simple, especially if you're new to wheel building. Build your wheels 3 cross and you'll be happy as a clam.

Tittle of the thread too cryptic? And 7 part questions on a forum are what?.. Ha!

 

[Parera]

So, DT Champion or Competition? Differences in durability/wheel stiffness? The only thing I know is that the wheelset will end up being a big heavier (130g by my calculations; not really an issue). Also, ride quality better one way or the other? Thanks for helping me overcome my ignorance.

(Other reason I ask is my mechanic really only stocks champion...once again, that's southern oregon for ya!)

 

[Bustedknuckle]

So, DT Champion or Competition? Differences in durability/wheel stiffness? The only thing I know is that the wheelset will end up being a big heavier (130g by my calculations; not really an issue). Also, ride quality better one way or the other? Thanks for helping me overcome my ignorance.

(Other reason I ask is my mechanic really only stocks champion...once again, that's southern oregon for ya!)

Comps, better wheel using them vs Champs altho straight gauge spokes work fine.

 

[Parera]

So if a guy were to get some cyclocross wheels built, which of course, I'm not, because I have three other bike projects and such an endeavor would be ghastly; signs of a sick, twisted mind. But, hypothetically, if I did have a CX frameset...can I just stick with the 105/velcoity A23 combo and get some decent clincher tires like Michelin Mud 2...or is tubular REALLY worth it for cross? Racing, yes, I know, absolutely; but for a guy who might occasionally hit Cross Crusade and some of the other fun ones, nothing too serious, mainly just going out doing some mudball single track adventures and rural roads to supplement winter riding.

My only gripe is I don't like changing tires cause I'm lazy and worthless. So it will probably end up being an extra set no matter what, unless I completely want to destroy these Mavic Aksiums this winter. Hell, I don't even know what I'm asking; was in an auto wreck (head-on collision) and my neck/back are causing me quite a bit of pain so I'm sleeping. Excuse me...

Was thinking Major Tom Tubular (these are solid, I assume). Basic plan:

1) Build tubular.
2) ?????
3) Profit

 

[Bustedknuckle]

So if a guy were to get some cyclocross wheels built, which of course, I'm not, because I have three other bike projects and such an endeavor would be ghastly; signs of a sick, twisted mind. But, hypothetically, if I did have a CX frameset...can I just stick with the 105/velcoity A23 combo and get some decent clincher tires like Michelin Mud 2...or is tubular REALLY worth it for cross? Racing, yes, I know, absolutely; but for a guy who might occasionally hit Cross Crusade and some of the other fun ones, nothing too serious, mainly just going out doing some mudball single track adventures and rural roads to supplement winter riding.

My only gripe is I don't like changing tires cause I'm lazy and worthless. So it will probably end up being an extra set no matter what, unless I completely want to destroy these Mavic Aksiums this winter. Hell, I don't even know what I'm asking; was in an auto wreck (head-on collision) and my neck/back are causing me quite a bit of pain so I'm sleeping. Excuse me...

Was thinking Major Tom Tubular (these are solid, I assume). Basic plan:

1) Build tubular.
2) ?????
3) Profit

Just get the 105/A23 built, great all around wheelset for cross or road.

If you are seriously going to compete in road or cross, Major Toms.

 

[Parera]

Got me some proper wheels. Just need my cross frame now.

edit: decal has since come off, so don't point out the obvious.

 

[Parera]

So...I have to say, my ghetto Roubaix setup is pretty awesome. Yes, not tubulars but Vittoria Open Pave w/latex tubes and the A23 rims is pretty awesome. Was doing laps on the cobblestone road in town (300m of nastiness) and I must say, where the hell have I been? Eyes have been opened a bit, makes me want to get some tubulars. The supple tire and latex tube make a huge difference (in addition to the beautifully built wheels). All smiles here, despite a bum back.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

So...I have to say, my ghetto Roubaix setup is pretty awesome. Yes, not tubulars but Vittoria Open Pave w/latex tubes and the A23 rims is pretty awesome. Was doing laps on the cobblestone road in town (300m of nastiness) and I must say, where the hell have I been? Eyes have been opened a bit, makes me want to get some tubulars. The supple tire and latex tube make a huge difference (in addition to the beautifully built wheels). All smiles here, despite a bum back.

Good! Then when you're ready to move out of the ghetto, go with Ambrosio Nemesis rims and FMB or A. Dugast Roubaix tires.

 

[Parera]

Good! Then when you're ready to move out of the ghetto, go with Ambrosio Nemesis rims and FMB or A. Dugast Roubaix tires.

32 or 36h at 165 lbs? Mind you, cobble riding is not something I do in the Pacific Northwest...but I've been known to bomb down some washboarded gravel roads in my time.