When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[Oldman]

Still, you have to admire Horner's unabashed, unapologetic arrogance in releasing the lab reports.

"Look: I'm clean. I released my lab reports."
"But the lab reports show that you doped."
"No they don't. I'm clean because I released my lab reports. No matter what the reports reveal, I'm clean, because I released my lab reports. So **** you."

End of discussion.

Fu*k you, PAY ME.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Still, you have to admire Horner's unabashed, unapologetic arrogance in releasing the lab reports.

"Look: I'm clean. I released my lab reports."
"But the lab reports show that you doped."
"No they don't. I'm clean because I released my lab reports. No matter what the reports reveal, I'm clean, because I released my lab reports. So **** you."

End of discussion.

Depends on your definition of "clean", doesn't it?

The ABP is decidedly aligned with the 50% Hct rule in terms of usefulness in anti-doping.

And the off-score, IMO is about as useful, wild swings notwithstanding.

 

[nomapnocompass]

I was thinking about this very thing last night and how doping has moved on over the years and as has the expertise required.

Horner is quite happy to release his ABP data as he knows that he has a good system in place. Although his Offscore and other params might be all over the place he is confident that he is within the limits of the current ABP and won't be sanctioned. That is how doping works nowadays, all you need to do is dope consistently and have the expertise to do it without flagging the ABP. Altitude training when required is a standard technique for covering up retic, hct anomalies.

 

[Master50]

You missed the word "joke" perhaps?

I didn't think it was funny. It is personal.

 

[Master50]

Reread this carefully, because this is my understanding of the process.

What's missing is the UCI/anti-doping authority is the one that decides to do the sanction.

And does that imply they ignore a positive reported by a national federation? That would change the game. Ultimate authority eventually is with CAS and WADA. IF the UCI refused a positive test report from a federation I suspect it would adversely affect cycling as an Olympic sport. That would cost careers. Love it or hate it the Olympics are a powerful influence on cycling policy.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

I didn't think it was funny. It is personal.

Although what is funny is that you believe that a sport with as much riding on it and as much corruption as Cycling has in it would have a system whereby the power brokers and masters of the universe CANNOT influence the way in which the sport is run and managed and make sure that any major scandals are managed as effectively as possible and maybe cover up one or two for the sake of the sport (read their large pay checks and even larger ego's)

You probably still think all politicians only do the job to make society a better place as well

 

[DirtyWorks]

And does that imply they ignore a positive reported by a national federation?

Lance Armstrong positives ignored at the UCI and USAC level. Are you going to pretend Tammy Thomas was a sophisticated doper who suddenly turned mannish while being an elite track rider?

Re-read the Sports Illustrated article. Armstrong was running a 9:1 T/E ratio at one point and no sanction. Thom Wiesel and the UCI protect their winners.

The IOC ignored EPO positives during a Winter games, and we know all about the UCI's attempt at hiding Contador's positive, and Chicken's suspicious values blessed by the UCI during the TdF. This is not a controversial opinion.

The most interesting things about Horner's situation are all the questions regarding how he remains unsanctioned. Good program? Paid off the right folks at the UCI? Had a meeting with ASO?

 

[Master50]

Lance Armstrong positives ignored at the UCI and USAC level. Are you going to pretend Tammy Thomas was a sophisticated doper who suddenly turned mannish while being an elite track rider?

Re-read the Sports Illustrated article. Armstrong was running a 9:1 T/E ratio at one point and no sanction. Thom Wiesel and the UCI protect their winners.

The IOC ignored EPO positives during a Winter games, and we know all about the UCI's attempt at hiding Contador's positive, and Chicken's suspicious values blessed by the UCI during the TdF. This is not a controversial opinion.

The most interesting things about Horner's situation are all the questions regarding how he remains unsanctioned. Good program? Paid off the right folks at the UCI? Had a meeting with ASO?

15 year old examples?
How long do you offer examples from the past to state the current state of affairs? LA thought to sue for the testosterone thing because it might have revealed his cancer? 1998 was it? 1999 EPO? out of process by the time that was revealed. Sure it served to provide compelling evidence that LA was a liar and I get that TT used this sort of thing to get his kill but TT proved the value of his persistence.
Now Contador? I can hear that conversation. It probably went something like hey did you hear. They popped AC? NO, for what. 50 picograms of clenbuterol! Are you kidding? 50 Picograms? he could have got that walking past a pharmacy. This is going to be messy, expensive and a total wast of time. Frankly I found it wild that they really did sanction him but I am also sure they were looking for something more incriminating and a clearer sign of real doping. In the end I think it became secondary evidence of blood doping and likely the real reason he was popped.
You have some evidence that the UCI tries to manage the message and I agree it often does little for their credibility but sorry it is not proof of tampering just incompetence managing the anti doping programs. That I can believe.
One of the biggest problems I have with this part of the forum is so many opinions by the experts here are still providing 15 year old examples of today's practices and methods. My problem with conspiracy theories is the notion that anyone can keep secrets. You know how to keep a secret? kill the others.

 

[Benotti69]

15 year old examples?
How long do you offer examples from the past to state the current state of affairs? LA thought to sue for the testosterone thing because it might have revealed his cancer? 1998 was it? 1999 EPO? out of process by the time that was revealed. Sure it served to provide compelling evidence that LA was a liar and I get that TT used this sort of thing to get his kill but TT proved the value of his persistence.
Now Contador? I can hear that conversation. It probably went something like hey did you hear. They popped AC? NO, for what. 50 picograms of clenbuterol! Are you kidding? 50 Picograms? he could have got that walking past a pharmacy. This is going to be messy, expensive and a total wast of time. Frankly I found it wild that they really did sanction him but I am also sure they were looking for something more incriminating and a clearer sign of real doping. In the end I think it became secondary evidence of blood doping and likely the real reason he was popped.
You have some evidence that the UCI tries to manage the message and I agree it often does little for their credibility but sorry it is not proof of tampering just incompetence managing the anti doping programs. That I can believe.
One of the biggest problems I have with this part of the forum is so many opinions by the experts here are still providing 15 year old examples of today's practices and methods. My problem with conspiracy theories is the notion that anyone can keep secrets. You know how to keep a secret? kill the others.

Alberto Contador's positive was uncovered by a Journalist. In case you dont want to go back 15 years

Then we have the current situation where UCI are releasing positives on their website discreetly in a dark corner in a pdf with no announcements.

We also have head of WADA, Creedie, praising China (of all places) as a doping free country.

Sorry but the shystem still is exactly that.

 

[Oldman]

15 year old examples?
How long do you offer examples from the past to state the current state of affairs? LA thought to sue for the testosterone thing because it might have revealed his cancer? 1998 was it? 1999 EPO? out of process by the time that was revealed. Sure it served to provide compelling evidence that LA was a liar and I get that TT used this sort of thing to get his kill but TT proved the value of his persistence.
Now Contador? I can hear that conversation. It probably went something like hey did you hear. They popped AC? NO, for what. 50 picograms of clenbuterol! Are you kidding? 50 Picograms? he could have got that walking past a pharmacy. This is going to be messy, expensive and a total wast of time. Frankly I found it wild that they really did sanction him but I am also sure they were looking for something more incriminating and a clearer sign of real doping. In the end I think it became secondary evidence of blood doping and likely the real reason he was popped.
You have some evidence that the UCI tries to manage the message and I agree it often does little for their credibility but sorry it is not proof of tampering just incompetence managing the anti doping programs. That I can believe.
One of the biggest problems I have with this part of the forum is so many opinions by the experts here are still providing 15 year old examples of today's practices and methods. My problem with conspiracy theories is the notion that anyone can keep secrets. You know how to keep a secret? kill the others.

We are on the Chris Horner thread. How could USAC not know? By the way, according to the short quote from Joaqium Rodrieguez he doesn't mention Horner as a contender for this Vuelta....
that could get Chris motivated.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

How could USAC not know?

Everybody knows. But nobody can do anything. That is why, at the top of his career, he is riding for an Italian team sponsored by a bike brand that can't even sell in the US, on a cut rate salary.

 

[Energy Starr]

We won't know who's hiding what or how their hiding it until 5-10 years from now. Current examples can't be given because they're being hidden, covered up, or however you want to describe the method.

 

[DirtyWorks]

15 year old examples?
How long do you offer examples from the past to state the current state of affairs?

This isn't clever or sufficient. It's a variation of "that's in the past. Cycling is looking forward." It's been continuously in use since at least Festina. And strangely enough, a new doping scandal arises every few years.

Implicit in this "cycling is moving forward" message is the federation has somehow changed. The federation has not changed, has no motivation to strictly enforce anti-doping.

Roman Kreuziger's mess is a more modern example.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Everybody knows. But nobody can do anything. That is why, at the top of his career, he is riding for an Italian team sponsored by a bike brand that can't even sell in the US, on a cut rate salary.

FYI Merida owns half of Specialized and makes many of their bikes. Also, Merida makes bikes for Trek. They also market a number of other brands, some in the U.S. besides their own all over the world.

They have a non-compete with Trek. Sinyard is doing well enough.


What will/won't be done to Horner is an interesting question. Lots of details in that area I know nothing about.

Not sure why he doesn't get the Kreuziger "protecting the sport" ban.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

FYI Merida owns half of Specialized and makes many of their bikes. Also, Merida makes bikes for Trek. They also market a number of other brands, some in the U.S. besides their own all over the world.

They have a non-compete with Trek. Sinyard is doing well enough.

Exactly, he is the most popular US rider...by far...and Spec or Trek wouldn't touch him.

What good does he do Lampre? A GT contender on the cheap. Worth the obvious risks. Italians won't care if he gets popped.

"This is something we cannot change because we have a commitment between our company and our long-term buyer and we have to honour this.

It has been a commitment from Merida since we started our own business 40 years ago. In that time we committed to our US buyer that we would never compete with them in their home market. The commitment has been there for years and we follow it. It shows we are a reliable, trusted company.”

http://cyclingiq.com/2012/03/14/meridas-tour-de-france-ambition/

 

[Master50]

Although what is funny is that you believe that a sport with as much riding on it and as much corruption as Cycling has in it would have a system whereby the power brokers and masters of the universe CANNOT influence the way in which the sport is run and managed and make sure that any major scandals are managed as effectively as possible and maybe cover up one or two for the sake of the sport (read their large pay checks and even larger ego's)

You probably still think all politicians only do the job to make society a better place as well

I mostly hate politicians with exceptions. I don't like officials jokes. The corruption in sports is as common as rain but it is different than it was and still mostly for personal gain by the person with power. Until someone has something to hide or gain there is no corruption either. I appreciate there is always a swing from 1 extreme to another. The worst I ever saw cycling was before pros were allowed to race the Olympics. The amateur politicians got IOC treatment every where and they definitely received personal benefit. This did carry over to some extent when HV became the first Modern UCI president after the amalgamation of FIAC and the pro FICP. This stuff probably still exists with regard to many things political but the doping stuff has burned so many politicians the further away they stay the longer their potential career. I think this motivates the powerful to keep their noses out of doping issues and let the actuals drones do their jobs.

 

[Master50]

We are on the Chris Horner thread. How could USAC not know? By the way, according to the short quote from Joaqium Rodrieguez he doesn't mention Horner as a contender for this Vuelta....
that could get Chris motivated.

My only point on that is corruption is frequently posted throughout this unending thread as one of the things that allow Chris to get away with his "obvious" doping. I agree it is a sidebar but by precedent it is related.

Just to be pedantic this thread is titled when is the smackdown ....... so we should only offer dates as predictions and updates that miss the mark. So the thread would be march 14 2014. and the rebuttal would be nope he is still not smacked. I doubt there is more than %20 new content anyway with %80 rehash

Sorry I have this crazy compulsion to be literal.

Now if CH wins this Vuelta, I would be surprised because of the TTs and the competition is pretty good. If he is healthy and stays upright I can see top 5.

 

[Granville57]

Now if CH wins this Vuelta, I would be surprised because of the TTs and the competition is pretty good. If he is healthy and stays upright I can see top 5.

I would like to go on the record by stating that I agree with this sentiment 100%.

But it is entertainment that many of us are hoping for.

And lots of it.

That could come in many different forms, of course.

 

[Oldman]

My only point on that is corruption is frequently posted throughout this unending thread as one of the things that allow Chris to get away with his "obvious" doping. I agree it is a sidebar but by precedent it is related.

Just to be pedantic this thread is titled when is the smackdown ....... so we should only offer dates as predictions and updates that miss the mark. So the thread would be march 14 2014. and the rebuttal would be nope he is still not smacked. I doubt there is more than %20 new content anyway with %80 rehash

Sorry I have this crazy compulsion to be literal.

Now if CH wins this Vuelta, I would be surprised because of the TTs and the competition is pretty good. If he is healthy and stays upright I can see top 5.

If he wins this Vuelta I think the Smackdown date sweepstakes might actually get interesting because of the International venue. The other sidebar topics (corruption, weak willed greedy officials) aren't totally irrelevant to prior history and today but are less important to this Vuelta, this Smackdown.
Otherwise he'll coast to a top 5 and low-profile it unless Froome implodes.

 

[red_flanders]

Otherwise he'll coast to a top 5 and low-profile it unless Froome implodes.

So if he doesn't win, it's already known that it will be because he's coasting?

Why would he not give it all for the win? Maybe...just maybe...he's not as good as Froome or Quintana? Or others?

Why don't we let the results inform us who is stronger?

I mean, don't get me wrong. Riders have coasted before in big races, I've seen it happen. But lets wait until we see it before we lay it out pre-race, eh?

I can't see any reason why he would coast a moment of this race.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So if he doesn't win, it's already known that it will be because he's coasting?

Why would he not give it all for the win? Maybe...just maybe...he's not as good as Froome or Quintana? Or others?

Why don't we let the results inform us who is stronger?

I mean, don't get me wrong. Riders have coasted before in big races, I've seen it happen. But lets wait until we see it before we lay it out pre-race, eh?

I can't see any reason why he would coast a moment of this race.

And there should be enough cross referencing of last year's climbs to see if he's riding at a similar level - or higher, or lower.

I personally hope they all stay super healthy and rip the space-time contiuum to pieces.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Horner may have miscalculated his doses - there are rumours he may not start the Vuelta

 

[elduggo]

Horner may have miscalculated his doses - there are rumours he may not start the Vuelta

confirmed just now

 

[classicomano]

Christopher Horner will unfortunately not take part in the 2014 Vuelta.
Valerio Conti will take his place in his debut in a grand tour.

As the blue-fuchsia-green team are part of the MPCC organization, it has been necessary for a change of program.
Even though Horner would be allowed to start the race as fas as the UCI is concerned, however the team are obliged to respect the rules and theregulation of the MPCC organisation in which it is a member on complete volontary decision.

The team’s head of medical staff, Dr Carlo Guardascione, explains the situation in more detail: “After the finish of Tour de France and after the Tour of Utah where the athlete was still suffering from bronchitis, Chris Horner underwent two examinations by two specialists for his bronchitis as he had been suffering since the beginning of the Tour de France as well as during the Tour of Utah, both specialists agreed that a treatment of cortisone by oral means was the only way to resolve this problem, all the necessary steps were taken to request a TUE (therapeutical use exemption), this authorization was given by UCI commission for the athlete to proceed with this therapy on the 15.08.2014.
Physiologically this treatment can cause a lowering of the cortisol together with other factors such as jet lag after his travel from United States where he had a time difference of 9 hours.
After the necessary UCI blood tests were taken it showed a lower cortisol level compared to the minumul level requested by the MPCC, thus the decision from the team to not allow the athlete to partake in this Vuelta even with having all the necessary UCI authorisation in order”.

With this decision, the team reaffirms his adherence to the principles underlying the MPCC organisation, agreeing to respect the rules and regulations and not to allow the athlete to start the Vuelta even though this being an important appointment for the athlete after an investment had been made on behalf of the team.

Horner, who’s going to spend the day training with his team mates, commented: “Of course I’m sad about this news. I was willing to try to defend the 2013 title, Vuelta was my main target in the season, the team signed my with the aim of being competitive in the Spanish race, but I accept the decision linked to the MPCC’s rules.
This bad bronchitis caused me a lot of problems, I’ve been suffering for it for weeks and this treatment could have allowed me to solve the problem.
UCI gave authorization for the treatment, I could race according UCI rules, but my team is member of MPCC, I understand it and we all must accept this situation without regrets”.

"Bronchitis".

 

[Coat-O]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-horner-out-of-vuelta-a-espana-due-to-low-cortisol-levels

Holy ****. If he attended, he would have raced the Vuelta on a "legal" TUE. Something fishy about the UCI.