When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

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Nov 8, 2012
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maltiv said:
Because riding away from everyone on a steep MTF is all about tactics :rolleyes:

Good thing Nibali didn't have such good tactics, because when he attacked from the group behind he didn't manage to take back a single second on Horner!
You might want to re-watch the stage.

Horner goes at around 4.5k. It was not a Froome like sprint. It was an out of the saddle grind. None in his group even took notice. By the time Nibali went the gap was 50 seconds.

The question really isn't how much time he got back from Horner, but how much time he put on the group of Valverde, et al. Nibs goes after Horner, at the same pace as Horner, at about 2.5k to go and only puts 14 seconds on that group.

Horner won the stage because he went early. It's that simple.
 
I'd say being able to go at the same pace as Nibali and faster than Valverde & co. after having kept up that level of effort for longer would allow us to say he won because he was, at the very least, one of the two strongest guys that day.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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hrotha said:
I'd say being able to go at the same pace as Nibali and faster than Valverde & co. after having kept up that level of effort for longer would allow us to say he won because he was, at the very least, one of the two strongest guys that day.
Yes. And Horner probably felt that. So tactically going from relatively far from the finish played directly into his strengths.

So using his tactical acumen worked out pretty well for him.
 
Scott SoCal said:
Yes. And Horner probably felt that. So tactically going from relatively far from the finish played directly into his strengths.

So using his tactical acumen worked out pretty well for him.
But that's a misdirection, since the original point was that he won simply because of his tactics, not because he was stronger than anyone else. Which you admit is incorrect.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
I don't need to. Ashenden is well aware of this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26micro.html?_r=0

Which you'd understand if you took the time to read his studies. You can't argue with reality. EPO-doses that evade detection have a significant performance enhancing effect. That's been PROVEN!
thanks for the 3 year old article that references a 8 year old study. Good thing Ashenden has clarified his position recently

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden

the early 2000’s most of us considered that EPO was used to boost performance, nowadays we believe that EPO is an important masking tool
 
Nov 8, 2012
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hrotha said:
But that's a misdirection, since the original point was that he won simply because of his tactics, not because he was stronger than anyone else. Which you admit is incorrect.
:). I hope you are just yanking my chain here.

All those guys in the finale are strong. Nobody gets to the finale of a MTF that isn't strong. Probably goes without saying, no?

If Horner waits until 3 or 2.5k to go, does he beat Nibali? No is the correct answer.

He won the stage because of his tactics and that was the original point.
 
Scott SoCal said:
:). I hope you are just yanking my chain here.

All those guys in the finale are strong. Nobody gets to the finale of a MTF that isn't strong. Probably goes without saying, no?

If Horner waits until 3 or 2.5k to go, does he beat Nibali? No is the correct answer.

He won the stage because of his tactics and that was the original point.
How do you figure he'd lose to Nibali? He kept up the same pace after having spent more energy. It's not that he was strong. It's that he was arguably the strongest (and at the very least just as strong as Nibali). The original point was this:
He is very smart and gained his two stage wins largely on tactics rather than overpowering the other racers.
But he did overpower the other racers, the only exception being arguably Nibali (and again, a point could be made that he proved to be stronger than him that day too, because again, he kept up the same level of effort for longer).
 
Nov 8, 2012
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hrotha said:
How do you figure he'd lose to Nibali? He kept up the same pace after having spent more energy. It's not that he was strong. It's that he was arguably the strongest (and at the very least just as strong as Nibali). The original point was this:

But he did overpower the other racers, the only exception being arguably Nibali (and again, a point could be made that he proved to be stronger than him that day too, because again, he kept up the same level of effort for longer).

Okay, if your point is Horner has more punch, more pure acceleration than Nibs then be my guest.

I don't think that's the case. But if you are right then Horner is a tactical idiot.

I think the original point was dead on, particularly on the stage win before the first rest day.

I'm not saying Horner was inferior.... Clearly he's one of he strongest on the climbs. But he took advantage of the group underestimating him, including Nibali. That's just good tactics. Horner played to his strengths. He could not wait for an explosive sprint in the last couple of Kms. He would not have won the stage and would not have taken the time back.

So,

He is very smart and gained his two stage wins largely on tactics rather than overpowering the other racers.
is pretty much the case.
 
Race Radio said:
thanks for the 3 year old article that references a 8 year old study. Good thing Ashenden has clarified his position recently

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden
Why the absoluteness?

&quot said:
"Kleine wie ich müssen mit EPO-Mikrodosen arbeiten, obwohl EPO seit Jahren nachweisbar ist."
Translation: Small fish like me have to microdose EPO even if it's been detectable for years.

http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/sport/uebersicht/natuerlich-haette-ich-weiter-gedopt-1.5614419#
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Mr.38&#37 said:
Why the absoluteness?



Translation: Small fish like me have to microdose EPO even if it's been detectable for years.

http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/sport/uebersicht/natuerlich-haette-ich-weiter-gedopt-1.5614419#
reality is important.

In the 3 1/2 years since the article you linked was published there have been 2 revisions of the EPO test that have further shrunk the testing window. As Ashenden clearly points out says the small doses of EPO riders are today are largely used to keep their off score correct, not to boost Hct. If they use in competition, like Di Lucca, there is an increasing likelihood they will get caught
 
Not to drag this thread back 5 pages....but whatever happened to Horner's right-hand man at Webcor, Charles Dionne?

More punchy than Horner, Fred Rodriguez type, and like 10 years younger. That dude won stages at all the big US races, SFGP. Seemed special and then just dropped off the face of the earth.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Race Radio said:
reality is important.

In the 3 1/2 years since the article you linked was published there have been 2 revisions of the EPO test that have further shrunk the testing window. As Ashenden clearly points out says the small doses of EPO riders are today are largely used to keep their off score correct, not to boost Hct. If they use in competition, like Di Lucca, there is an increasing likelihood they will get caught
Dont know who Di Lucca is but if referring to Danilo 'il Killer' Di Luca he was tested OOC on the 29th of april. That is if I recall correct.

HCT is no longer interesting, hemaglobine on the other hand is much more interesting to spike/keep up.

Il Killer failed a logistics test, he aint that smart. He used to have guys like Martinello and Amadio dealing with this, guess now he has to rely on lesser gifted folks.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Race Radio said:
thanks for the 3 year old article that references a 8 year old study. Good thing Ashenden has clarified his position recently

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden
His 2011 study showed you can get a 10% boost in Hb-mass by shooting 60 iu/kg a week? You're too scientifically illiterate to figure out what the implications are. The EPO-test is nowhere near sensitive enough to make EPO useless as a performance enhancer.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Doping experts Jakob Mørkeberg and Bengt Saltin agree that the EPO-test isn't sensitive enough. Probably because they don't reject the hard facts just because they disagree with what JV and Richie Porte told them. :rolleyes:
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Mr.38% said:
EPO is being microdosed to mask transfusions (which not everybody does because it's too expensive or complicated or plain too dangerous)...
We both agree on that.

Mr.38% said:
...but still also to increase Hb mass. 500-1000IU are maybe even too much, 200-500IU is more probable these days. And then there is EPO as a recovery drug.
I know that, RR doesn't.

Mr.38% said:
The latest positives have been a result of the implementation of MAIIA which is more sensitive to microdosing. MAIIA is in place since earlier this year. No problem though if you train in remote places with only little chances of OOC controls.
Wrong. The MAIIA-test has not yet been implemented. This was a rumour started by JV on twitter. It's not true. MAIIA will be introduced in 2014 or 2015 according to Mørkeberg.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
His 2011 study showed you can get a 10% boost in Hb-mass by shooting 60 iu/kg a week? You're too scientifically illiterate to figure out what the implications are. The EPO-test is nowhere near sensitive enough to make EPO useless as a performance enhancer.
Instead of insults I suggest you read what Ashenden said in in 2012, not 2 years ago. He is very clear what EPO microdosing is used for today

the early 2000’s most of us considered that EPO was used to boost performance, nowadays we believe that EPO is an important masking tool
You are welcome to ignore this and point to an older study but that does not change the fact that the primary use for EPO microdosing in competition is to keep your off score stable.
 
Race Radio said:
Instead of insults I suggest you read what Ashenden said in in 2012, not 2 years ago. He is very clear what EPO microdosing is used for today



You are welcome to ignore this and point to an older study but that does not change the fact that the primary use for EPO microdosing in competition is to keep your off score stable.
I don't see how this and what Tyler's Twin is saying are even in conflict.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Instead of insults I suggest you read what Ashenden said in in 2012, not 2 years ago. He is very clear what EPO microdosing is used for today
It doesn't matter what Ashenden said that one time. Other doping experts have made statements that disagree with your position. Ashenden's own studies disagree with you position. The facts disagree with your position. You are spewing unscientific nonsense.

Race Radio said:
You are welcome to ignore this and point to an older study but that does not change the fact that the primary use for EPO microdosing in competition is to keep your off score stable.
No ****, Sherlock! And the primary use for EPO microdosing OUT OF COMPETITION is to increase Hb mass.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
No ****, Sherlock! And the primary use for EPO microdosing OUT OF COMPETITION is to increase Hb mass.
Instead of screaming and profanity I suggest you read the thread. We were discussing how Horner would get a blood bag to the Vuelta. How he could mask transfusions with the altitude excuse (Utah) and EPO microdosing. We discussed how he is looking so strong in the 3rd week and what methods he could use to achieve this. Transfusion, masked by microdosing, are the best possibility

Next time instead of searching for an argument take some time to read the thread and you will not look so silly
 

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